SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[Luv2BFlyin]

$5,000. a month ain't much. After taxes, it's about $1800. a pay period. Whoopty-doo.

I figured less than that. More like about $1250 but a lot of us realize we wouldn't be seeing a raise anywhere near that big anyways.

 

[greenpilot]

Southwest Pilots = SWAPA Pilots. I could have inserted "Southwest" where SWAPA was, yes. But the trannys need to be SWAPA Pilots to fly for Southwest. They desire our contract/QOL - that is SWAPA's contract.

If they say they don't want a $5000 a month raise - they must be high.

AirTran pilots have been flying for SWA since May 2. The planes we fly are SWA planes. The only thing we can't fly is a plane painted in swa canyon blue or corn dog brown.

 

[Tripower455]

Yep, Delta still goes there. Same with Singapore, Manilla, Hong Kong, Shanghai (just restarted ATL nonstop with a 777), Guam, Saipan, Korror (Palau), Sydney, Beijing, Taipei, Nagoya, Osaka, Tokyo, Pusan, Honolulu, Kona, Maui, Lihue, Seoul, ----and those are just the daily or more flights to the Pacific.

Now what about South and Central America---Rio, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires, Santiago, Quito, Guayaquil, Manaus, Brasilia, Caracas, Bogota, Panama City, Lima, Georgetown, Managua, Guatamala City, San Salvador, Tegucigalpa, San Pedro Sula, Liberia, San Jose, Roatan, etc.

How about the Caribbean? San Juan (you got that one with Airtran), St Thomas, St Croix, St Kitts, Aruba, Bonaire, Curacao, Montego Bay, Kingston, Barbados, Antigua, Santo Domingo, Punta Cana, Puerta Plata, Grand Cayman, Grenada, St Martaen, etc.

How about Europe? London (Heathrow and Gatwick), Manchester, Dublin, Shannon, Brussels, Amsterdam, Moscow, Istanbul, Dusseldorf, Munich, Frankfurt, Paris, Nice, Madrid, Barcelona, Rome, Milan, Venice, Prague, Athens, Copenhagen, Stuttgart, Berlin, Tel Aviv, Malaga, Valencia, etc.

How about Africa? Accra, Lagos, Abuja, Monrovia, Dakar, Johanesburg.


I may have missed a few (all memory, thanks), but those are with DL metal. Add to that a domestic hub in ATL that is bigger and busier than anything you have (70% of the busiest airport in the world), and hubs in the Midwest (MSP/DTW/CVG/MEM), East Coast (JFK, and bigger LGA with slot swap with USAir), West Coast (SEA/SLC/LAX), and I think you are starting to see that the virtual thing you say is a bunch of BULL S..... But wait, you do have Hobby and Love Field.......(hear crickets? yeah) Great for you. Again, apples to oranges. You just aren't a world player, and I guess that's ok for you.



Bye Bye---General Lee

Real Delta didn't go to any of those places before buying real Pan Am.

Did it work the same way when you started virtual Delta, or did you do a virtual buyout too? Do you guys have virtual crew scheds, and virtual chief pilots giving virtual rug dances too?

Did your virtual paycheck get virtually docked when mom grounded you?

It must be great to be a kid, although it doesn't pay nearly as well!

 

[Luv2BFlyin]

And until the FL pilots are a part of SWAPA, they will be flying the same equipment for a little less money. Anywhere else, that would be unpopular, but for some reason some SWAPA pilots on here are hoping this goes on indefinitely.

BTW Skywest is still flying for us, I thought that was a violation of your contract? When does the marketing agreement end, or is GK going to let it drag out?

 

[Tripower455]

I figured less than that. More like about $1250 but a lot of us realize we wouldn't be seeing a raise anywhere near that big anyways.

How about for the folks where this is their main/only source of income and are in a lesser tax bracket (the vast majority, like me)? My take home is a much larger % than this, and I'm on 12 year Capt pay.

Or do you live in Canada?

You guys are unbelievable.

Roughly 1/3 or the AT pilot group had active apps on file at SW on 9/27/10 (not to mention the hundreds that actually jumped off the AT ship prior to that date).

That draws a vivid picture of "career expectations" between the 2 companies.

Admit that this is a good thing for you guys and move on. To do anything else is disingenuous at best.

 

[huronip]

And until the FL pilots are a part of SWAPA, they will be flying the same equipment for a little less money. Anywhere else, that would be unpopular, but for some reason some SWAPA pilots on here are hoping this goes on indefinitely.

BTW Skywest is still flying for us, I thought that was a violation of your contract? When does the marketing agreement end, or is GK going to let it drag out?

Well SWA just settled the grievance for the "One LUV" medallion on the AT plane on May 2nd for violating Section 1 by donating enough money to purchase a new van in every SWA domicile for the Ronald McDonald House. How many other companies would do that?

 

[redflyer65]

The monthly number is easily 5-7000/month. I believe the 'across the board' average was 5000 a month when the numbers were crunched.

What would it take for most SWAPA pilots to agree to a negotiated SLI?

I think it would be something like this..AAI FO's at the bottom of the combined list (hopefully holding full longevity for pay), AAI CA's ratioed in off the bottom of the SW list. The unknowns would be..

Fences and possible pay protection. And possibly the AAI CA's retaining the left seat but with a reduction in longevity going forward. There are a ton of different ways to get it done, but anything less palitable on the SW side would most likely get it sent to arbitration.

In the end, no staple and no DOH.

Bad arbitration award in the eyes of Gary/SWAPA, the slow wind down of Guadolupe would probably follow over the next couple of years ala Muse Air.

Just my two cents. No one on here has had the cajones to throw out an actual scenario. Discuss.

 

[redflyer65]

.

BTW Skywest is still flying for us, I thought that was a violation of your contract? When does the marketing agreement end, or is GK going to let it drag out?

Skywest 'codeshare' will go away thanks to the SWAPA's well written section one of the contract.

I think we can all admit that's a good thing for all us...on both sides.

And Tripower is right, anyone trying to argue that this isn't a big windfall for the AAI guys in career expecations/pay/QOL is disingenous.

 

[Dan Roman]

Incoming!

Sorry I couldn't resist.
Your scenario has legal precedent to torpedo it. When CO bought People Express, they put the Captains on the bottom of the Captains list and everyone else on the bottom. PEX pilots took it to court, and even though they were non union and with no real representation, they still won an integration the was MUCH better. No matter who you are, you can't staple anyone unless they agree to it. AirTran is just as solid as SWA, so you cannot even use the distressed airline argument.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm not saying that we would abitrarily do any of that to your side. If it wasn't agreed to it would go to arbitration, which a completely different route for the whole process.

I'm just giving you a scenerio where I think the SWAPA pilots might sign off on it...

If the AAI pilots refuse to (and that your right), then it goes to arbitration.

I'm not worried either way. You guys can blast me all you want, that's the fun of FI.

 

[Tripower455]

Skywest 'codeshare' will go away thanks to the SWAPA's well written section one of the contract.

I think we can all admit that's a good thing for all us...on both sides.

And Tripower is right, anyone trying to argue that this isn't a big windfall for the AAI guys in career expecations/pay/QOL is disingenous.

Also, how many days does an AT guy average at work per month?

I'm a great example of what you guys are in for.

I'm a slacker by SW standards, and since Jan., I've averaged 12.33 days worked per month (some more, some less), and at the end of June, I will have grossed a little over $120k, every penny at straight pay.

There were 2 vacation weeks in there too, and I've still got 2 more this year.

A guy living in domicile and gaming the system can (and they do) make far north of this number.

Luv2bflying,

What has/can a comparable 12+ year AT guy made Jan/June (with the new contract, no less), flying 12.33 days a month at straight time?

 

[Ty Webb]

Roughly 1/3 or the AT pilot group had active apps on file at SW on 9/27/10 (not to mention the hundreds that actually jumped off the AT ship prior to that date).

That draws a vivid picture of "career expectations" between the 2 companies.

I'm throwing the BS flag on this one.

Two thirds of the AirTran group had been hired since 2002. How far back are you counting?

Anyway, it's all moot. Some of you guys don't understand what "anecdotal" means.

Read some past arbitration rulings on mergers between healthy carriers. They look primarily at the equipment type and seat. "Career expectations" is a function of available airframes, seats, and the number of years you can expect to be in that seat.

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Also, how many days does an AT guy average at work per month?

I'm a great example of what you guys are in for.

I'm a slacker by SW standards, and since Jan., I've averaged 12.33 days worked per month (some more, some less), and at the end of June, I will have grossed a little over $120k, every penny at straight pay.

There were 2 vacation weeks in there too, and I've still got 2 more this year.

A guy living in domicile and gaming the system can (and they do) make far north of this number.

Luv2bflying,

What has/can a comparable 12+ year AT guy made Jan/June (with the new contract, no less), flying 12.33 days a month at straight time?

Newsflash . . . . . What you are describing are all dependant upon the current contract/current bidding/current pay scheme.

All that can change, and may change for the worst.

When it does, are you going to give me my seniority back?

 

[redflyer65]

I'm not saying you would lose your seat in a negotiated settlement, there could be many other ways to work the SLI.

If you want to go to arbitration and die on the 'I'm not losing my seat' mantra, I have a suspecion that it might not work out so well for you.

Penny wise and pound foolish in this deal is not looking at things long term.

 

[Ty Webb]

Its actually probably more. Don't come over then. Bid the 717 go where they go.

You don't hear too many AAI pilots on here telling SWA pilots what to do . . . but you sure see a lot of SWA pilots telling AAI guys what to do.

Thanks, buddy. When I want some crappy advice, I'll be sure to look you up.

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm not saying you would lose your seat in a negotiated settlement, there could be many other ways to work the SLI.

If you want to go to arbitration and die on the 'I'm not losing my seat' mantra, I have a suspecion that it might not work out so well for you.

Penny wise and pound foolish in this deal is not looking at things long term.

I'm not doing anything, except countering the b.s. that flows here on a daily basis. An example is the veiled threats in most of your posts. Maybe you haven't noticed, but all those do is piss us off. No one is scared, except a certain Orlando Gate Agent.


I'm a pawn in this game just like you are. The difference is that I realize it.

 

[redflyer65]

So Ty,

You have any thoughts about what this might look like if negotiated? I'm mean realistic thoughts, not pie in the sky 'one side gets everything' deal.

How would that vary from what you preceive in an arbitrated list. This is FI, let me have it.

Not trying to throw any grenades, just wondering what your thoughts are.

 

[Ty Webb]

So Ty,

You have any thoughts about what this might look like if negotiated? I'm mean realistic thoughts, not pie in the sky 'one side gets everything' deal.

How would that vary from what you preceive in an arbitrated list. This is FI, let me have it.

Not trying to throw any grenades, just wondering what your thoughts are.

Since we were asked by our Union to not debate SLI expectations, I have refrained from doing so. I'm really not sure that it would have ANY effect, but I support the negotiation process and both our negotiation teams, and that is what they have asked from us, so I won't do it.

I really don't have a concrete opinion, because I realize I don't have all the data and facts. When the two committees have reached an agreement (hopefully) I will definitely give it 100% consideration, and then vote my one measly vote.

And, in the end, whatever we end up with is what we end up with. I am already resigned to live with it, but I think there are a few on here that will have a very difficult time doing so.

 

[Tripower455]

I'm throwing the BS flag on this one.

Two thirds of the AirTran group had been hired since 2002. How far back are you counting?

Anyway, it's all moot. Some of you guys don't understand what "anecdotal" means.

Read some past arbitration rulings on mergers between healthy carriers. They look primarily at the equipment type and seat. "Career expectations" is a function of available airframes, seats, and the number of years you can expect to be in that seat.

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.

According to a management friend of mine, the number of active number of active applications on file from current AT guys ON 9/27 was around 600. That's around 1/3. How is that anecdotal?

I never mentioned anyone losing their seats, or anything remotely anecdotal in my posts. Heck, I never even mentioned SLI.

I did mention that life is gonna be a lot better over here than there. at least for those that actually fly the line.

 

[Tripower455]

Newsflash . . . . . What you are describing are all dependant upon the current contract/current bidding/current pay scheme.

All that can change, and may change for the worst.

When it does, are you going to give me my seniority back?

Exactly.

If it were up to me, I'd give you the seniority you deserve. And it would be fair, and equitable!