SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[kwick]

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.

Uhhh....... Southwest last acquisition involved stapling and downgrades......[/QUOTE]


That was a "Rape", not a merger.

Glad you're proud of it.

 

[Tripower455]

I don't think the courts care about respective payscales, the merged airline will have everyone on the same one. It's the position that counts. Just like what Fubijacker said.

Career expectations, of which pay is a big player, will most certainly be considered by an arbitrator.

 

[Tripower455]

Uhhh....... Southwest last acquisition involved stapling and downgrades......

That was a "Rape", not a merger.

Glad you're proud of it.[/QUOTE]

Most of the "victims" will disagree. Every one of them are senior Capts.

 

[dicko]

Career expectations, of which pay is a big player, will most certainly be considered by an arbitrator.

We had a Frontier guy on our jumpseat recently. He had their IMSL on his Ipad. There was a Republic guy who was born in 1987, one number above a Frontier guy who was hired in 1987.

It was pretty appalling. I think we can agree on that.

 

[Tripower455]

We had a Frontier guy on our jumpseat recently. He had their IMSL on his Ipad. There was a Republic guy who was born in 1987, one number above a Frontier guy who was hired in 1987.

It was pretty appalling. I think we can agree on that.

Definitely. That's the reason most of us are so concerned about this acquisition. They have historically not gone well for the pilots involved. You guys have the potential to get screwed out of some seniority, but that's tempered (or should be) by the considerable gains afforded by our contract.

We have the potential to get screwed out of some seniority.

 

[Skyboy722]

We had a Frontier guy on our jumpseat recently. He had their IMSL on his Ipad. There was a Republic guy who was born in 1987, one number above a Frontier guy who was hired in 1987.

Ummmm..... no. No you didn't, and no there wasn't.

Where to begin..... *sigh*

First of all, F9 didn't exist in 1987. So, certainly there is no pilot with a 1987 hire date. But even if there was, it would be safe to assume that he/she would be a captain, and a senior one at that.

All the F9 captains were blended with the top 650 republic guys. So, your 24 year old republic guy (born 1987) would have to have been hired at (just some rough math here)......The age of about 13!

So, ugly situation, yes. But your story, or at least the list that guy showed you, not even close to being true.

 

[dicko]

Ummmm..... no. No you didn't, and no there wasn't.

Where to begin..... *sigh*

First of all, F9 didn't exist in 1987. So, certainly there is no pilot with a 1987 hire date. But even if there was, it would be safe to assume that he/she would be a captain, and a senior one at that.

All the F9 captains were blended with the top 650 republic guys. So, your 24 year old republic guy (born 1987) would have to have been hired at (just some rough math here)......The age of about 13!

So, ugly situation, yes. But your story, or at least the list that guy showed you, not even close to being true.

In that case apologies. I glanced down at the list and took him at his word. Maybe I screwed up the years. Hire date and birth date were definitely featured. Maybe the guy was nuts. Who knows.

We were just above minimums and I was trying to hand fly a CAT3 ILS. The FO was screaming something about "terrain" which was distracting me from the Ipad and our conversation about seniority

Certainly an interesting result for the F9 Captains.

 

[denny]

At the risk of starting a fire I'll just make one comment.

It pisses you guys off when we explain to you how good of a deal you inherited and that fair and equitable goes both ways.

That's NOT a flame. I'm NOT looking to start a fight. It's simply an observation after reading/listening for the past 8+ months.

Gup

This has to be the most boneheaded statement I've seen. Idiotic too. It's what's wrong with airline pilots in this day and age. It's why we continue to backslide. I've enjoyed Guppy's posts over the years but now know he's a shortsighted, egomaniac whore of a pilot. Good God. We deserve to to suck hind tit with this kind of thinking. I'm not an Airtran or SWA guy. I'll think twice before being as courteous as I've been.

 

[scoreboardII]

I see nothing but truth based on fact in what Gup says. No flame, no bashing.

Why is that idiotic, shortsighted, ego-maniacal?

Just wondering and thinking "thou doth protest to much".

 

[GuppyWN]

This has to be the most boneheaded statement I've seen. Idiotic too. It's what's wrong with airline pilots in this day and age. It's why we continue to backslide. I've enjoyed Guppy's posts over the years but now know he's a shortsighted, egomaniac whore of a pilot. Good God. We deserve to to suck hind tit with this kind of thinking. I'm not an Airtran or SWA guy. I'll think twice before being as courteous as I've been.

So you're telling me that if Delta bought Virgin America that relative seniority would be the way to go?

Southwest and Airtran is NOT an apples to apples comparison. It's not about the size of the jet, it's about the ENTIRETY of the companies/contracts as a whole.

Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

So you're telling me that if Delta bought Virgin America that relative seniority would be the way to go?

Southwest and Airtran is NOT an apples to apples comparison. It's not about the size of the jet, it's about the ENTIRETY of the companies/contracts as a whole.

Gup

Why do you Southwest dudes continue to debate with individuals with no say in this matter? Who are you trying to convince?

 

[JT12345]

So you're telling me that if Delta bought Virgin America that relative seniority would be the way to go?

Southwest and Airtran is NOT an apples to apples comparison. It's not about the size of the jet, it's about the ENTIRETY of the companies/contracts as a whole.

Gup

What if Delta never went bankrupt or took 40% paycuts and lost retirement, but the NWA guys mergered after exiting bankruptcy making 40% less than Delta. What would have happened overthere... u think anything much different?

_____________________

Gup, your alright in my book man.

 

[redflyer65]

Yes it would. Just like if SW approved a new contract tomorrow with a 40% payraise. Wouldn't we go into arbitration with the new 40% increase on the table, or would we go in with the date of public announcement numbers?

 

[greenpilot]

What if Delta never went bankrupt or took 40% paycuts and lost retirement, but the NWA guys mergered after exiting bankruptcy making 40% less than Delta. What would have happened overthere... u think anything much different?

_____________________

Gup, your alright in my book man.

Delta/nwa did not go relative. It was based on ratios. Delta tried to use the pay argument. They tried to have the nwa 9 Capts in the same cat as delta international 75 Fo. The arbitrator did not agree.
As far as what would have happened if things were different. Who cares!

 

[ASADFW7]

Who cares is right, time moves on. There will be a solution for these two groups and life will continue.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Delta/nwa did not go relative. It was based on ratios. Delta tried to use the pay argument. They tried to have the nwa 9 Capts in the same cat as delta international 75 Fo. The arbitrator did not agree.
As far as what would have happened if things were different. Who cares!

The 3 stooges from Delta that have to input everything about our situation says they had a negotiated decision, did it go to arbitration? Just trying to keep track
KBB

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Who cares is right, time moves on. There will be a solution for these two groups and life will continue.

Exactly, past precedent means nothing with these things right now...Everyone of them has been different, if the same arbitrator did all of them I would tell you that you may be able to predict the outcome...

I'm ready to move on!
KBB

 

[Tripower455]

The 3 stooges from Delta that have to input everything about our situation says they had a negotiated decision, did it go to arbitration? Just trying to keep track
KBB

You mean the 1 stooge? At least 2 of them are the same guy, and he's not even a Delta pilot...... His dad might be one though!


Unless this counts:

http://www.deltava.org/


He got turned down by this one:

http://www.virtualswa.com/

He's real bitter about it.....

 

[Cruncher]

We had a Frontier guy on our jumpseat recently. He had their IMSL on his Ipad. There was a Republic guy who was born in 1987, one number above a Frontier guy who was hired in 1987.

It was pretty appalling. I think we can agree on that.

Dicko,

Your close. Though, the F9 guy misquoted their award.

Top 962 spots: 650 RAH:312 F9 CA (starting with RAH, roughly 2 RAH, then 1 F9 CA)
Next 1155 spots: 700 RAH : 334 F9 FOs : 121 YX pilots (again starting with RAH, roughly 4:2:1 pilots, very rough public math; but note, these YX guys are currently furloughed & who knows if they'll ever go to RAH as a relatively junior, much older FO)

This is where the birth date / hired date is found. There is a RAH FO who was born about the same time a YX Captain was hired at YX.

If you have the award, IMSL #1001 was born Oct '78 (RAH CA), while #1002 was hired at YX in Dec '78. The YX guy could come back as a RAH CA, but he's old enough for SS & I'm not sure he'll be young enough when he CAN bid back (any RAH guys have a better opinion/SLI interpretation?). Also, this YX guy is towards the top of the F9 FOs. I think he couldn't bid the bus for at least another 7 years (fence), then behind the other 700 more senior RAH CAs / F9 FOs get a crack at it.

So, the point is moot, he's probably off enjoying life (hopefully)!

 

[dicko]

Dicko,

Your close. Though, the F9 guy misquoted their award.

Top 962 spots: 650 RAH:312 F9 CA (starting with RAH, roughly 2 RAH, then 1 F9 CA)
Next 1155 spots: 700 RAH : 334 F9 FOs : 121 YX pilots (again starting with RAH, roughly 4:2:1 pilots, very rough public math; but note, these YX guys are currently furloughed & who knows if they'll ever go to RAH as a relatively junior, much older FO)

This is where the birth date / hired date is found. There is a RAH FO who was born about the same time a YX Captain was hired at YX.

If you have the award, IMSL #1001 was born Oct '78 (RAH CA), while #1002 was hired at YX in Dec '78. The YX guy could come back as a RAH CA, but he's old enough for SS & I'm not sure he'll be young enough when he CAN bid back (any RAH guys have a better opinion/SLI interpretation?). Also, this YX guy is towards the top of the F9 FOs. I think he couldn't bid the bus for at least another 7 years (fence), then behind the other 700 more senior RAH CAs / F9 FOs get a crack at it.

So, the point is moot, he's probably off enjoying life (hopefully)!

Thanks. Glad to hear I wasn't completely losing it. My mistake

You're right. He did say it was a Midwest guy and a Republic guy. The fate of the Midwest guys is sickening. We've got many of them at AirTran. All of them are solid. They are a great pilot group who were screwed by the ego or their CEO (Mr Save my cookies)