SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[Lear70]

Well SWA just settled the grievance for the "One LUV" medallion on the AT plane on May 2nd for violating Section 1 by donating enough money to purchase a new van in every SWA domicile for the Ronald McDonald House. How many other companies would do that?

That's pretty dang smart when you think about it. Mollifies the SWA pilot group by still being quickly responsive to complaints, a solution that doesn't irritate one side or another AND that's tax-deductible as a charitable donation.

The monthly number is easily 5-7000/month. I believe the 'across the board' average was 5000 a month when the numbers were crunched.

The number for me is about $4,500 a month compared to my two SWA buddies who are in my same longevity bracket, pre-tax of course.

What would it take for most SWAPA pilots to agree to a negotiated SLI?

I think it would be something like this..AAI FO's at the bottom of the combined list (hopefully holding full longevity for pay), AAI CA's ratioed in off the bottom of the SW list. The unknowns would be..

Fences and possible pay protection. And possibly the AAI CA's retaining the left seat but with a reduction in longevity going forward. There are a ton of different ways to get it done, but anything less palitable on the SW side would most likely get it sent to arbitration.

In the end, no staple and no DOH.

Actually, that IS a staple. You just said "AAI FO's at the bottom of the combined list". That's a staple for over half our pilots.

That said, our MC would never send something like that to the MEC for vote, nor would the MEC put it out for vote (I've spoken first-hand with enough reps to know how they feel about anything approaching that kind of scenario). But it's interesting to hear what you guys would find "acceptable", and that's why I fear there's little that can be done to keep this from arbitration, as we would find something like that "unacceptable".

Bad arbitration award in the eyes of Gary/SWAPA, the slow wind down of Guadolupe would probably follow over the next couple of years ala Muse Air.

Just my two cents. No one on here has had the cajones to throw out an actual scenario. Discuss.

And your first paragraph in this quote is why. On one hand you want to discuss scenarios, but then you deliberately antagonize our pilots with something that threatens their entire LIFE as an airline pilot.

How, in anyone's right mind, would you think you'd get positive debate after being so personally aggressive? It's not about whether we find that scenario possible (we don't), it's about antagonizing someone when you say you want to discuss something. You can't threaten someone then expect them to calmly and politely debate your topic.

 

[Lear70]

So Ty,

You have any thoughts about what this might look like if negotiated? I'm mean realistic thoughts, not pie in the sky 'one side gets everything' deal.

How would that vary from what you preceive in an arbitrated list. This is FI, let me have it.

Not trying to throw any grenades, just wondering what your thoughts are.

You're not going to get much response.

First, the thinly-veiled threats that have accompanied most of these threads will keep anyone who *MIGHT* debate calmly and politely from entering the fray. I can't tell you how many AAI pilots I talk to who are lurking on these boards and are highly shocked by the threats and negativity coming from the SWA crowd. They're not going to debate with you because of it.

Second, there are VERY few regular posters on here that are AAI whose identities aren't widely known. The minute one of us posts something that approaches your kind of debate, we get called out and slammed on our private board to STHU.

You'd have to get someone who created a new, anonymous screen name to debate you and the second they did, they'd immediately be screamed at on our private board and if they were ever found out, they'd get crucified.

Better to just let the MC/NC's do their thing and sit back and wait.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Career expectations:

SWA - 737 CA
AAI - 737 CA

Hmmm....

 

[Lear70]

Also, how many days does an AT guy average at work per month?

I'm a great example of what you guys are in for.

I'm a slacker by SW standards, and since Jan., I've averaged 12.33 days worked per month (some more, some less), and at the end of June, I will have grossed a little over $120k, every penny at straight pay.

There were 2 vacation weeks in there too, and I've still got 2 more this year.

A guy living in domicile and gaming the system can (and they do) make far north of this number.

Luv2bflying,

What has/can a comparable 12+ year AT guy made Jan/June (with the new contract, no less), flying 12.33 days a month at straight time?

Don't know what a 12+ year AT guy makes (they'd be a CA), but this 6 year guy flies 12 days a month (18 day off average), gets weekends and holidays off if I want them (bidding #8 in base on the 737), credits 82 hours a month on average on about 78-80 hours of block, which is $89,544 for the year before per diem or B-fund of about $10k or anything else, and I don't game the system (we can't, there's not enough reserves to drop anything and get creative with premium pay).

I have two weeks vacation coming up so it hasn't factored in yet.

If you take a 12 year CA who gets the same line award I bid and flies it, you'd have 82 hours average credit * $161.72 per hour which is a yearly gross of $159,132 straight pay, before any vacation, training pay, B-fund, 401(k) match, or anything else.

It's pretty decent as far as QoL is concerned, not SWA pay, but perfectly livable for a single guy with one child.

 

[8v8tr]

And until the FL pilots are a part of SWAPA, they will be flying the same equipment for a little less money. Anywhere else, that would be unpopular, but for some reason some SWAPA pilots on here are hoping this goes on indefinitely.

BTW Skywest is still flying for us, I thought that was a violation of your contract? When does the marketing agreement end, or is GK going to let it drag out?

And this my friend is a terrible road to travel, whipsaw potential high. Remember Section one is strong but not unbeatable in court under diress, it has happend before.

Second for all the SWA people telling the AAI people, "not fair" I had to pay for my 737 type to get hired here, well your above statement is the payment AAI guys are paying to get there jobs at SWA.

Lets say 12 months prior to SLI at $5k less pay is $60K!!! There you go, I just bought 6 types, now get off your high horses!

In addtion to the 123 rules and 60% discounts at the same hotels we stay at, employed by the same damn company and we pay full price for food and drink.

You guys are truly a "class act" I am glad you on this forum are the Angry 12 at SWA and do not represent the majority, dispite what may spill from your keyboards.

 

[8v8tr]

You're not going to get much response.

First, the thinly-veiled threats that have accompanied most of these threads will keep anyone who *MIGHT* debate calmly and politely from entering the fray. I can't tell you how many AAI pilots I talk to who are lurking on these boards and are highly shocked by the threats and negativity coming from the SWA crowd. They're not going to debate with you because of it.

Second, there are VERY few regular posters on here that are AAI whose identities aren't widely known. The minute one of us posts something that approaches your kind of debate, we get called out and slammed on our private board to STHU.

You'd have to get someone who created a new, anonymous screen name to debate you and the second they did, they'd immediately be screamed at on our private board and if they were ever found out, they'd get crucified.

Better to just let the MC/NC's do their thing and sit back and wait.

Well said RM!

I for one am sure damn tired of trying to go out of my way to say hi to the SWA folks to get some sound or a turned head, they truly do not live there LUV, until I see otherwise it is all propaganda. The culture dept has there work cut out for them, sad, cause I know most of us had high expecations, but it appears this Merger (acquisition) is going to turn into USair/America West. GK will have to step up the anty to get this done peacfully...

rant over...waste of breath anyway..

 

[jball2]

8v8,
I ALWAYS make an attempt to say hi and welcome our newest Family Members. I have tons of friends there from my previous life and I am excited to work with them once again. I commute on you guys and for the most part I am treated like gold. However, I have been on the receiving end on some pretty harsh and unsolicited posturing as a captive audience on your jumpseat as well. It goes both ways. It is not just SWA guys stirring the pot. This message board represents a FEW people from both sides and nothing is going to be solved here, thank goodness! We can all sit around and think we deserve this or that but in reality it is by the Grace Of God we even get to wake up in the morning.

 

[8v8tr]

8v8,
I ALWAYS make an attempt to say hi and welcome our newest Family Members. I have tons of friends there from my previous life and I am excited to work with them once again. I commute on you guys and for the most part I am treated like gold. However, I have been on the receiving end on some pretty harsh and unsolicited posturing as a captive audience on your jumpseat as well. It goes both ways. It is not just SWA guys stirring the pot. This message board represents a FEW people from both sides and nothing is going to be solved here, thank goodness! We can all sit around and think we deserve this or that but in reality it is by the Grace Of God we even get to wake up in the morning.

Well said, too bad the 10%ers ruin it for the 90%ers!

 

[jball2]

As we like to say here at SWA, one guy craps his pants and we all have to wear diapers! ;-)

 

[8v8tr]

As we like to say here at SWA, one guy craps his pants and we all have to wear diapers! ;-)

:beer:

 

[dragontamer]

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.[/QUOTE]

Uhhh....... Southwest last acquisition involved stapling and downgrades......

 

[Ty Webb]

Uhhh....... Southwest last acquisition involved stapling and downgrades......

You took my quote out of context. The discussion was about arbitrated lists. What I said was:

"Read some past arbitration rulings on mergers between healthy carriers. They look primarily at the equipment type and seat. "Career expectations" is a function of available airframes, seats, and the number of years you can expect to be in that seat.

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it". __________________

 

[Lear70]

8v8,
I ALWAYS make an attempt to say hi and welcome our newest Family Members. I have tons of friends there from my previous life and I am excited to work with them once again. I commute on you guys and for the most part I am treated like gold. However, I have been on the receiving end on some pretty harsh and unsolicited posturing as a captive audience on your jumpseat as well. It goes both ways. It is not just SWA guys stirring the pot. This message board represents a FEW people from both sides and nothing is going to be solved here, thank goodness! We can all sit around and think we deserve this or that but in reality it is by the Grace Of God we even get to wake up in the morning.

Very true.

Your crews have been, by and far, VERY welcoming and friendly and I try my best to do the same when your guys and gals fly on us as well. I truly believe that the majority of our crews are going to work very well together once all this is said and done and the few that BOTH sides encounter who are antagonistic,,, well,,, you can't do much but smile and just go on about your life.

Ya'll fly safe out there!

 

[redflyer65]

Since we were asked by our Union to not debate SLI expectations, I have refrained from doing so. I'm really not sure that it would have ANY effect, but I support the negotiation process and both our negotiation teams, and that is what they have asked from us, so I won't do it.

I really don't have a concrete opinion, because I realize I don't have all the data and facts. When the two committees have reached an agreement (hopefully) I will definitely give it 100% consideration, and then vote my one measly vote.

And, in the end, whatever we end up with is what we end up with. I am already resigned to live with it, but I think there are a few on here that will have a very difficult time doing so.

Fair enough Ty. I can respect that, and we will see how it all comes out in the end.


Lear,

How is stating the facts that are laid out before us 'antagonistic'. Can I say something is anagonistic if I don't like the way the deal is set up?

Maybe its apples to oranges in the way we look at things, but it is what it is.

Cheers.
RF

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

How is stating the facts that are laid out before us 'antagonistic'. Can I say something is anagonistic if I don't like the way the deal is set up?

Maybe its apples to oranges in the way we look at things, but it is what it is.

Cheers.
RF

Probably because:

a. the vast majority of our pilots don't see that "threat" of a Muse scenario as possible from a legal standpoint, and

b. it's something that would ruin careers, lives, and that kind of thing is NOT something you use in a debate where you want to get constructive, polite, professional discussion.

It's why negotiating skills are so rare. People *THINK* they can negotiate, when the truth is that there's a very fine skill to it that few people really have without extensive training and a little innate natural skill. You have to walk the line of being tough and assertive yet not crossing the line to offensive or aggressive, because it will make the OTHER person become offensive and aggressive.

It's our human "fight or flight" nature that EVERY human being possesses. Confrontation of that level of aggression (threatening someone's ability to keep their job, provide for their family, keep a roof over their head, feed their children) isn't going to yield anything but a corresponding level of aggression or simply complete disengagement.

Basic rule of debate: don't get personal, don't make threats, even if YOU believe you have the ability to back them up. The other person will become correspondingly threatening or will simply disengage, and that's exactly what the majority of our pilots on this forum have done, because of the thinly-veiled (or outright deliberate) threats of "pulling a Muse".

I'm not saying you shouldn't debate what you think would be fair or not (although most of us won't have that debate on here because our MC has asked us not to), I'm saying that doing it with a "you should be happy to take this OR ELSE" approach isn't going to yield a fruitful debate. FWIW.

 

[Dan Roman]

Career expectations:

SWA - 737 CA
AAI - 737 CA

Hmmm....

Bingo, which is exactly how the courts would see it.
All the breast thumping or mudslinging doesn't change a thing.

 

[Tripower455]

Don't know what a 12+ year AT guy makes (they'd be a CA), but this 6 year guy flies 12 days a month (18 day off average), gets weekends and holidays off if I want them (bidding #8 in base on the 737), credits 82 hours a month on average on about 78-80 hours of block, which is $89,544 for the year before per diem or B-fund of about $10k or anything else, and I don't game the system (we can't, there's not enough reserves to drop anything and get creative with premium pay).

I have two weeks vacation coming up so it hasn't factored in yet.

If you take a 12 year CA who gets the same line award I bid and flies it, you'd have 82 hours average credit * $161.72 per hour which is a yearly gross of $159,132 straight pay, before any vacation, training pay, B-fund, 401(k) match, or anything else.

It's pretty decent as far as QoL is concerned, not SWA pay, but perfectly livable for a single guy with one child.

So, not counting the 17.5k 401k match, the 12 year AT captain, on the new payscale not in effect the day we anounced the buyout, is getting roughly $7k per month raise.

How many work 12 days per month?

 

[Tripower455]

Bingo, which is exactly how the courts would see it.
All the breast thumping or mudslinging doesn't change a thing.

Yeah, what's over $80k+ per year difference among friends?

 

[dicko]

The monthly number is easily 5-7000/month. I believe the 'across the board' average was 5000 a month when the numbers were crunched.

What would it take for most SWAPA pilots to agree to a negotiated SLI?

I think it would be something like this..AAI FO's at the bottom of the combined list (hopefully holding full longevity for pay), AAI CA's ratioed in off the bottom of the SW list. The unknowns would be..

Fences and possible pay protection. And possibly the AAI CA's retaining the left seat but with a reduction in longevity going forward. There are a ton of different ways to get it done, but anything less palitable on the SW side would most likely get it sent to arbitration.

In the end, no staple and no DOH.

Bad arbitration award in the eyes of Gary/SWAPA, the slow wind down of Guadolupe would probably follow over the next couple of years ala Muse Air.

Just my two cents. No one on here has had the cajones to throw out an actual scenario. Discuss.

Red,

Your surprise at Lears' suggestion on the other thread shows how singularly uninformed you are. Either you are not talking to the right people or they aren't talking to you. For whatever reason.

If GK was considering breaking a four party agreement to appease you, do you really think you'd be telegraphing his plans 8 months prior on a web board ? Do you think he'd have told SWAPA ? It's a fantasy. It's a negotiating ploy and nobody here is buying it. Except you ... Maybe.


Cheers,

 

[Dan Roman]

Yeah, what's over $80k+ per year difference among friends?

I don't think the courts care about respective payscales, the merged airline will have everyone on the same one. It's the position that counts. Just like what Fubijacker said.