SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[Ty Webb]

I'm not saying you would lose your seat in a negotiated settlement, there could be many other ways to work the SLI.

If you want to go to arbitration and die on the 'I'm not losing my seat' mantra, I have a suspecion that it might not work out so well for you.

Penny wise and pound foolish in this deal is not looking at things long term.

I'm not doing anything, except countering the b.s. that flows here on a daily basis. An example is the veiled threats in most of your posts. Maybe you haven't noticed, but all those do is piss us off. No one is scared, except a certain Orlando Gate Agent.


I'm a pawn in this game just like you are. The difference is that I realize it.

 

[redflyer65]

So Ty,

You have any thoughts about what this might look like if negotiated? I'm mean realistic thoughts, not pie in the sky 'one side gets everything' deal.

How would that vary from what you preceive in an arbitrated list. This is FI, let me have it.

Not trying to throw any grenades, just wondering what your thoughts are.

 

[Ty Webb]

So Ty,

You have any thoughts about what this might look like if negotiated? I'm mean realistic thoughts, not pie in the sky 'one side gets everything' deal.

How would that vary from what you preceive in an arbitrated list. This is FI, let me have it.

Not trying to throw any grenades, just wondering what your thoughts are.

Since we were asked by our Union to not debate SLI expectations, I have refrained from doing so. I'm really not sure that it would have ANY effect, but I support the negotiation process and both our negotiation teams, and that is what they have asked from us, so I won't do it.

I really don't have a concrete opinion, because I realize I don't have all the data and facts. When the two committees have reached an agreement (hopefully) I will definitely give it 100% consideration, and then vote my one measly vote.

And, in the end, whatever we end up with is what we end up with. I am already resigned to live with it, but I think there are a few on here that will have a very difficult time doing so.

 

[Tripower455]

I'm throwing the BS flag on this one.

Two thirds of the AirTran group had been hired since 2002. How far back are you counting?

Anyway, it's all moot. Some of you guys don't understand what "anecdotal" means.

Read some past arbitration rulings on mergers between healthy carriers. They look primarily at the equipment type and seat. "Career expectations" is a function of available airframes, seats, and the number of years you can expect to be in that seat.

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.

According to a management friend of mine, the number of active number of active applications on file from current AT guys ON 9/27 was around 600. That's around 1/3. How is that anecdotal?

I never mentioned anyone losing their seats, or anything remotely anecdotal in my posts. Heck, I never even mentioned SLI.

I did mention that life is gonna be a lot better over here than there. at least for those that actually fly the line.

 

[Tripower455]

Newsflash . . . . . What you are describing are all dependant upon the current contract/current bidding/current pay scheme.

All that can change, and may change for the worst.

When it does, are you going to give me my seniority back?

Exactly.

If it were up to me, I'd give you the seniority you deserve. And it would be fair, and equitable!

 

[Lear70]

Well SWA just settled the grievance for the "One LUV" medallion on the AT plane on May 2nd for violating Section 1 by donating enough money to purchase a new van in every SWA domicile for the Ronald McDonald House. How many other companies would do that?

That's pretty dang smart when you think about it. Mollifies the SWA pilot group by still being quickly responsive to complaints, a solution that doesn't irritate one side or another AND that's tax-deductible as a charitable donation.

The monthly number is easily 5-7000/month. I believe the 'across the board' average was 5000 a month when the numbers were crunched.

The number for me is about $4,500 a month compared to my two SWA buddies who are in my same longevity bracket, pre-tax of course.

What would it take for most SWAPA pilots to agree to a negotiated SLI?

I think it would be something like this..AAI FO's at the bottom of the combined list (hopefully holding full longevity for pay), AAI CA's ratioed in off the bottom of the SW list. The unknowns would be..

Fences and possible pay protection. And possibly the AAI CA's retaining the left seat but with a reduction in longevity going forward. There are a ton of different ways to get it done, but anything less palitable on the SW side would most likely get it sent to arbitration.

In the end, no staple and no DOH.

Actually, that IS a staple. You just said "AAI FO's at the bottom of the combined list". That's a staple for over half our pilots.

That said, our MC would never send something like that to the MEC for vote, nor would the MEC put it out for vote (I've spoken first-hand with enough reps to know how they feel about anything approaching that kind of scenario). But it's interesting to hear what you guys would find "acceptable", and that's why I fear there's little that can be done to keep this from arbitration, as we would find something like that "unacceptable".

Bad arbitration award in the eyes of Gary/SWAPA, the slow wind down of Guadolupe would probably follow over the next couple of years ala Muse Air.

Just my two cents. No one on here has had the cajones to throw out an actual scenario. Discuss.

And your first paragraph in this quote is why. On one hand you want to discuss scenarios, but then you deliberately antagonize our pilots with something that threatens their entire LIFE as an airline pilot.

How, in anyone's right mind, would you think you'd get positive debate after being so personally aggressive? It's not about whether we find that scenario possible (we don't), it's about antagonizing someone when you say you want to discuss something. You can't threaten someone then expect them to calmly and politely debate your topic.

 

[Lear70]

So Ty,

You have any thoughts about what this might look like if negotiated? I'm mean realistic thoughts, not pie in the sky 'one side gets everything' deal.

How would that vary from what you preceive in an arbitrated list. This is FI, let me have it.

Not trying to throw any grenades, just wondering what your thoughts are.

You're not going to get much response.

First, the thinly-veiled threats that have accompanied most of these threads will keep anyone who *MIGHT* debate calmly and politely from entering the fray. I can't tell you how many AAI pilots I talk to who are lurking on these boards and are highly shocked by the threats and negativity coming from the SWA crowd. They're not going to debate with you because of it.

Second, there are VERY few regular posters on here that are AAI whose identities aren't widely known. The minute one of us posts something that approaches your kind of debate, we get called out and slammed on our private board to STHU.

You'd have to get someone who created a new, anonymous screen name to debate you and the second they did, they'd immediately be screamed at on our private board and if they were ever found out, they'd get crucified.

Better to just let the MC/NC's do their thing and sit back and wait.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Career expectations:

SWA - 737 CA
AAI - 737 CA

Hmmm....

 

[Lear70]

Also, how many days does an AT guy average at work per month?

I'm a great example of what you guys are in for.

I'm a slacker by SW standards, and since Jan., I've averaged 12.33 days worked per month (some more, some less), and at the end of June, I will have grossed a little over $120k, every penny at straight pay.

There were 2 vacation weeks in there too, and I've still got 2 more this year.

A guy living in domicile and gaming the system can (and they do) make far north of this number.

Luv2bflying,

What has/can a comparable 12+ year AT guy made Jan/June (with the new contract, no less), flying 12.33 days a month at straight time?

Don't know what a 12+ year AT guy makes (they'd be a CA), but this 6 year guy flies 12 days a month (18 day off average), gets weekends and holidays off if I want them (bidding #8 in base on the 737), credits 82 hours a month on average on about 78-80 hours of block, which is $89,544 for the year before per diem or B-fund of about $10k or anything else, and I don't game the system (we can't, there's not enough reserves to drop anything and get creative with premium pay).

I have two weeks vacation coming up so it hasn't factored in yet.

If you take a 12 year CA who gets the same line award I bid and flies it, you'd have 82 hours average credit * $161.72 per hour which is a yearly gross of $159,132 straight pay, before any vacation, training pay, B-fund, 401(k) match, or anything else.

It's pretty decent as far as QoL is concerned, not SWA pay, but perfectly livable for a single guy with one child.

 

[8v8tr]

And until the FL pilots are a part of SWAPA, they will be flying the same equipment for a little less money. Anywhere else, that would be unpopular, but for some reason some SWAPA pilots on here are hoping this goes on indefinitely.

BTW Skywest is still flying for us, I thought that was a violation of your contract? When does the marketing agreement end, or is GK going to let it drag out?

And this my friend is a terrible road to travel, whipsaw potential high. Remember Section one is strong but not unbeatable in court under diress, it has happend before.

Second for all the SWA people telling the AAI people, "not fair" I had to pay for my 737 type to get hired here, well your above statement is the payment AAI guys are paying to get there jobs at SWA.

Lets say 12 months prior to SLI at $5k less pay is $60K!!! There you go, I just bought 6 types, now get off your high horses!

In addtion to the 123 rules and 60% discounts at the same hotels we stay at, employed by the same damn company and we pay full price for food and drink.

You guys are truly a "class act" I am glad you on this forum are the Angry 12 at SWA and do not represent the majority, dispite what may spill from your keyboards.

 

[8v8tr]

You're not going to get much response.

First, the thinly-veiled threats that have accompanied most of these threads will keep anyone who *MIGHT* debate calmly and politely from entering the fray. I can't tell you how many AAI pilots I talk to who are lurking on these boards and are highly shocked by the threats and negativity coming from the SWA crowd. They're not going to debate with you because of it.

Second, there are VERY few regular posters on here that are AAI whose identities aren't widely known. The minute one of us posts something that approaches your kind of debate, we get called out and slammed on our private board to STHU.

You'd have to get someone who created a new, anonymous screen name to debate you and the second they did, they'd immediately be screamed at on our private board and if they were ever found out, they'd get crucified.

Better to just let the MC/NC's do their thing and sit back and wait.

Well said RM!

I for one am sure damn tired of trying to go out of my way to say hi to the SWA folks to get some sound or a turned head, they truly do not live there LUV, until I see otherwise it is all propaganda. The culture dept has there work cut out for them, sad, cause I know most of us had high expecations, but it appears this Merger (acquisition) is going to turn into USair/America West. GK will have to step up the anty to get this done peacfully...

rant over...waste of breath anyway..

 

[jball2]

8v8,
I ALWAYS make an attempt to say hi and welcome our newest Family Members. I have tons of friends there from my previous life and I am excited to work with them once again. I commute on you guys and for the most part I am treated like gold. However, I have been on the receiving end on some pretty harsh and unsolicited posturing as a captive audience on your jumpseat as well. It goes both ways. It is not just SWA guys stirring the pot. This message board represents a FEW people from both sides and nothing is going to be solved here, thank goodness! We can all sit around and think we deserve this or that but in reality it is by the Grace Of God we even get to wake up in the morning.

 

[8v8tr]

8v8,
I ALWAYS make an attempt to say hi and welcome our newest Family Members. I have tons of friends there from my previous life and I am excited to work with them once again. I commute on you guys and for the most part I am treated like gold. However, I have been on the receiving end on some pretty harsh and unsolicited posturing as a captive audience on your jumpseat as well. It goes both ways. It is not just SWA guys stirring the pot. This message board represents a FEW people from both sides and nothing is going to be solved here, thank goodness! We can all sit around and think we deserve this or that but in reality it is by the Grace Of God we even get to wake up in the morning.

Well said, too bad the 10%ers ruin it for the 90%ers!

 

[jball2]

As we like to say here at SWA, one guy craps his pants and we all have to wear diapers! ;-)

 

[8v8tr]

As we like to say here at SWA, one guy craps his pants and we all have to wear diapers! ;-)

:beer: