SWA/AAI and the flight deck jumpseat

[dragontamer]

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.[/QUOTE]

Uhhh....... Southwest last acquisition involved stapling and downgrades......

 

[Ty Webb]

Uhhh....... Southwest last acquisition involved stapling and downgrades......

You took my quote out of context. The discussion was about arbitrated lists. What I said was:

"Read some past arbitration rulings on mergers between healthy carriers. They look primarily at the equipment type and seat. "Career expectations" is a function of available airframes, seats, and the number of years you can expect to be in that seat.

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it". __________________

 

[Lear70]

8v8,
I ALWAYS make an attempt to say hi and welcome our newest Family Members. I have tons of friends there from my previous life and I am excited to work with them once again. I commute on you guys and for the most part I am treated like gold. However, I have been on the receiving end on some pretty harsh and unsolicited posturing as a captive audience on your jumpseat as well. It goes both ways. It is not just SWA guys stirring the pot. This message board represents a FEW people from both sides and nothing is going to be solved here, thank goodness! We can all sit around and think we deserve this or that but in reality it is by the Grace Of God we even get to wake up in the morning.

Very true.

Your crews have been, by and far, VERY welcoming and friendly and I try my best to do the same when your guys and gals fly on us as well. I truly believe that the majority of our crews are going to work very well together once all this is said and done and the few that BOTH sides encounter who are antagonistic,,, well,,, you can't do much but smile and just go on about your life.

Ya'll fly safe out there!

 

[redflyer65]

Since we were asked by our Union to not debate SLI expectations, I have refrained from doing so. I'm really not sure that it would have ANY effect, but I support the negotiation process and both our negotiation teams, and that is what they have asked from us, so I won't do it.

I really don't have a concrete opinion, because I realize I don't have all the data and facts. When the two committees have reached an agreement (hopefully) I will definitely give it 100% consideration, and then vote my one measly vote.

And, in the end, whatever we end up with is what we end up with. I am already resigned to live with it, but I think there are a few on here that will have a very difficult time doing so.

Fair enough Ty. I can respect that, and we will see how it all comes out in the end.


Lear,

How is stating the facts that are laid out before us 'antagonistic'. Can I say something is anagonistic if I don't like the way the deal is set up?

Maybe its apples to oranges in the way we look at things, but it is what it is.

Cheers.
RF

 

[Lear70]

Lear,

How is stating the facts that are laid out before us 'antagonistic'. Can I say something is anagonistic if I don't like the way the deal is set up?

Maybe its apples to oranges in the way we look at things, but it is what it is.

Cheers.
RF

Probably because:

a. the vast majority of our pilots don't see that "threat" of a Muse scenario as possible from a legal standpoint, and

b. it's something that would ruin careers, lives, and that kind of thing is NOT something you use in a debate where you want to get constructive, polite, professional discussion.

It's why negotiating skills are so rare. People *THINK* they can negotiate, when the truth is that there's a very fine skill to it that few people really have without extensive training and a little innate natural skill. You have to walk the line of being tough and assertive yet not crossing the line to offensive or aggressive, because it will make the OTHER person become offensive and aggressive.

It's our human "fight or flight" nature that EVERY human being possesses. Confrontation of that level of aggression (threatening someone's ability to keep their job, provide for their family, keep a roof over their head, feed their children) isn't going to yield anything but a corresponding level of aggression or simply complete disengagement.

Basic rule of debate: don't get personal, don't make threats, even if YOU believe you have the ability to back them up. The other person will become correspondingly threatening or will simply disengage, and that's exactly what the majority of our pilots on this forum have done, because of the thinly-veiled (or outright deliberate) threats of "pulling a Muse".

I'm not saying you shouldn't debate what you think would be fair or not (although most of us won't have that debate on here because our MC has asked us not to), I'm saying that doing it with a "you should be happy to take this OR ELSE" approach isn't going to yield a fruitful debate. FWIW.

 

[Dan Roman]

Career expectations:

SWA - 737 CA
AAI - 737 CA

Hmmm....

Bingo, which is exactly how the courts would see it.
All the breast thumping or mudslinging doesn't change a thing.

 

[Tripower455]

Don't know what a 12+ year AT guy makes (they'd be a CA), but this 6 year guy flies 12 days a month (18 day off average), gets weekends and holidays off if I want them (bidding #8 in base on the 737), credits 82 hours a month on average on about 78-80 hours of block, which is $89,544 for the year before per diem or B-fund of about $10k or anything else, and I don't game the system (we can't, there's not enough reserves to drop anything and get creative with premium pay).

I have two weeks vacation coming up so it hasn't factored in yet.

If you take a 12 year CA who gets the same line award I bid and flies it, you'd have 82 hours average credit * $161.72 per hour which is a yearly gross of $159,132 straight pay, before any vacation, training pay, B-fund, 401(k) match, or anything else.

It's pretty decent as far as QoL is concerned, not SWA pay, but perfectly livable for a single guy with one child.

So, not counting the 17.5k 401k match, the 12 year AT captain, on the new payscale not in effect the day we anounced the buyout, is getting roughly $7k per month raise.

How many work 12 days per month?

 

[Tripower455]

Bingo, which is exactly how the courts would see it.
All the breast thumping or mudslinging doesn't change a thing.

Yeah, what's over $80k+ per year difference among friends?

 

[dicko]

The monthly number is easily 5-7000/month. I believe the 'across the board' average was 5000 a month when the numbers were crunched.

What would it take for most SWAPA pilots to agree to a negotiated SLI?

I think it would be something like this..AAI FO's at the bottom of the combined list (hopefully holding full longevity for pay), AAI CA's ratioed in off the bottom of the SW list. The unknowns would be..

Fences and possible pay protection. And possibly the AAI CA's retaining the left seat but with a reduction in longevity going forward. There are a ton of different ways to get it done, but anything less palitable on the SW side would most likely get it sent to arbitration.

In the end, no staple and no DOH.

Bad arbitration award in the eyes of Gary/SWAPA, the slow wind down of Guadolupe would probably follow over the next couple of years ala Muse Air.

Just my two cents. No one on here has had the cajones to throw out an actual scenario. Discuss.

Red,

Your surprise at Lears' suggestion on the other thread shows how singularly uninformed you are. Either you are not talking to the right people or they aren't talking to you. For whatever reason.

If GK was considering breaking a four party agreement to appease you, do you really think you'd be telegraphing his plans 8 months prior on a web board ? Do you think he'd have told SWAPA ? It's a fantasy. It's a negotiating ploy and nobody here is buying it. Except you ... Maybe.


Cheers,

 

[Dan Roman]

Yeah, what's over $80k+ per year difference among friends?

I don't think the courts care about respective payscales, the merged airline will have everyone on the same one. It's the position that counts. Just like what Fubijacker said.

 

[kwick]

Some of you guys crack me up. No past merger between healthy carriers has EVER resulted in yanking Captains out of their seats and upgrading hundreds of FO's to take those seats. Not a one. This merger will be no different, and anyone telling you otherwise is full of it.

Uhhh....... Southwest last acquisition involved stapling and downgrades......[/QUOTE]


That was a "Rape", not a merger.

Glad you're proud of it.

 

[Tripower455]

I don't think the courts care about respective payscales, the merged airline will have everyone on the same one. It's the position that counts. Just like what Fubijacker said.

Career expectations, of which pay is a big player, will most certainly be considered by an arbitrator.

 

[Tripower455]

Uhhh....... Southwest last acquisition involved stapling and downgrades......

That was a "Rape", not a merger.

Glad you're proud of it.[/QUOTE]

Most of the "victims" will disagree. Every one of them are senior Capts.

 

[dicko]

Career expectations, of which pay is a big player, will most certainly be considered by an arbitrator.

We had a Frontier guy on our jumpseat recently. He had their IMSL on his Ipad. There was a Republic guy who was born in 1987, one number above a Frontier guy who was hired in 1987.

It was pretty appalling. I think we can agree on that.

 

[Tripower455]

We had a Frontier guy on our jumpseat recently. He had their IMSL on his Ipad. There was a Republic guy who was born in 1987, one number above a Frontier guy who was hired in 1987.

It was pretty appalling. I think we can agree on that.

Definitely. That's the reason most of us are so concerned about this acquisition. They have historically not gone well for the pilots involved. You guys have the potential to get screwed out of some seniority, but that's tempered (or should be) by the considerable gains afforded by our contract.

We have the potential to get screwed out of some seniority.

 

[Skyboy722]

We had a Frontier guy on our jumpseat recently. He had their IMSL on his Ipad. There was a Republic guy who was born in 1987, one number above a Frontier guy who was hired in 1987.

Ummmm..... no. No you didn't, and no there wasn't.

Where to begin..... *sigh*

First of all, F9 didn't exist in 1987. So, certainly there is no pilot with a 1987 hire date. But even if there was, it would be safe to assume that he/she would be a captain, and a senior one at that.

All the F9 captains were blended with the top 650 republic guys. So, your 24 year old republic guy (born 1987) would have to have been hired at (just some rough math here)......The age of about 13!

So, ugly situation, yes. But your story, or at least the list that guy showed you, not even close to being true.

 

[dicko]

Ummmm..... no. No you didn't, and no there wasn't.

Where to begin..... *sigh*

First of all, F9 didn't exist in 1987. So, certainly there is no pilot with a 1987 hire date. But even if there was, it would be safe to assume that he/she would be a captain, and a senior one at that.

All the F9 captains were blended with the top 650 republic guys. So, your 24 year old republic guy (born 1987) would have to have been hired at (just some rough math here)......The age of about 13!

So, ugly situation, yes. But your story, or at least the list that guy showed you, not even close to being true.

In that case apologies. I glanced down at the list and took him at his word. Maybe I screwed up the years. Hire date and birth date were definitely featured. Maybe the guy was nuts. Who knows.

We were just above minimums and I was trying to hand fly a CAT3 ILS. The FO was screaming something about "terrain" which was distracting me from the Ipad and our conversation about seniority

Certainly an interesting result for the F9 Captains.

 

[denny]

At the risk of starting a fire I'll just make one comment.

It pisses you guys off when we explain to you how good of a deal you inherited and that fair and equitable goes both ways.

That's NOT a flame. I'm NOT looking to start a fight. It's simply an observation after reading/listening for the past 8+ months.

Gup

This has to be the most boneheaded statement I've seen. Idiotic too. It's what's wrong with airline pilots in this day and age. It's why we continue to backslide. I've enjoyed Guppy's posts over the years but now know he's a shortsighted, egomaniac whore of a pilot. Good God. We deserve to to suck hind tit with this kind of thinking. I'm not an Airtran or SWA guy. I'll think twice before being as courteous as I've been.

 

[scoreboardII]

I see nothing but truth based on fact in what Gup says. No flame, no bashing.

Why is that idiotic, shortsighted, ego-maniacal?

Just wondering and thinking "thou doth protest to much".

 

[GuppyWN]

This has to be the most boneheaded statement I've seen. Idiotic too. It's what's wrong with airline pilots in this day and age. It's why we continue to backslide. I've enjoyed Guppy's posts over the years but now know he's a shortsighted, egomaniac whore of a pilot. Good God. We deserve to to suck hind tit with this kind of thinking. I'm not an Airtran or SWA guy. I'll think twice before being as courteous as I've been.

So you're telling me that if Delta bought Virgin America that relative seniority would be the way to go?

Southwest and Airtran is NOT an apples to apples comparison. It's not about the size of the jet, it's about the ENTIRETY of the companies/contracts as a whole.

Gup

 

[Kharma Police]

So you're telling me that if Delta bought Virgin America that relative seniority would be the way to go?

Southwest and Airtran is NOT an apples to apples comparison. It's not about the size of the jet, it's about the ENTIRETY of the companies/contracts as a whole.

Gup

Why do you Southwest dudes continue to debate with individuals with no say in this matter? Who are you trying to convince?

 

[JT12345]

So you're telling me that if Delta bought Virgin America that relative seniority would be the way to go?

Southwest and Airtran is NOT an apples to apples comparison. It's not about the size of the jet, it's about the ENTIRETY of the companies/contracts as a whole.

Gup

What if Delta never went bankrupt or took 40% paycuts and lost retirement, but the NWA guys mergered after exiting bankruptcy making 40% less than Delta. What would have happened overthere... u think anything much different?

_____________________

Gup, your alright in my book man.

 

[redflyer65]

Yes it would. Just like if SW approved a new contract tomorrow with a 40% payraise. Wouldn't we go into arbitration with the new 40% increase on the table, or would we go in with the date of public announcement numbers?

 

[greenpilot]

What if Delta never went bankrupt or took 40% paycuts and lost retirement, but the NWA guys mergered after exiting bankruptcy making 40% less than Delta. What would have happened overthere... u think anything much different?

_____________________

Gup, your alright in my book man.

Delta/nwa did not go relative. It was based on ratios. Delta tried to use the pay argument. They tried to have the nwa 9 Capts in the same cat as delta international 75 Fo. The arbitrator did not agree.
As far as what would have happened if things were different. Who cares!

 

[ASADFW7]

Who cares is right, time moves on. There will be a solution for these two groups and life will continue.

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Delta/nwa did not go relative. It was based on ratios. Delta tried to use the pay argument. They tried to have the nwa 9 Capts in the same cat as delta international 75 Fo. The arbitrator did not agree.
As far as what would have happened if things were different. Who cares!

The 3 stooges from Delta that have to input everything about our situation says they had a negotiated decision, did it go to arbitration? Just trying to keep track
KBB

 

[Ky.BrownBourbn]

Who cares is right, time moves on. There will be a solution for these two groups and life will continue.

Exactly, past precedent means nothing with these things right now...Everyone of them has been different, if the same arbitrator did all of them I would tell you that you may be able to predict the outcome...

I'm ready to move on!
KBB

 

[Tripower455]

The 3 stooges from Delta that have to input everything about our situation says they had a negotiated decision, did it go to arbitration? Just trying to keep track
KBB

You mean the 1 stooge? At least 2 of them are the same guy, and he's not even a Delta pilot...... His dad might be one though!


Unless this counts:

http://www.deltava.org/


He got turned down by this one:

http://www.virtualswa.com/

He's real bitter about it.....

 

[Cruncher]

We had a Frontier guy on our jumpseat recently. He had their IMSL on his Ipad. There was a Republic guy who was born in 1987, one number above a Frontier guy who was hired in 1987.

It was pretty appalling. I think we can agree on that.

Dicko,

Your close. Though, the F9 guy misquoted their award.

Top 962 spots: 650 RAH:312 F9 CA (starting with RAH, roughly 2 RAH, then 1 F9 CA)
Next 1155 spots: 700 RAH : 334 F9 FOs : 121 YX pilots (again starting with RAH, roughly 4:2:1 pilots, very rough public math; but note, these YX guys are currently furloughed & who knows if they'll ever go to RAH as a relatively junior, much older FO)

This is where the birth date / hired date is found. There is a RAH FO who was born about the same time a YX Captain was hired at YX.

If you have the award, IMSL #1001 was born Oct '78 (RAH CA), while #1002 was hired at YX in Dec '78. The YX guy could come back as a RAH CA, but he's old enough for SS & I'm not sure he'll be young enough when he CAN bid back (any RAH guys have a better opinion/SLI interpretation?). Also, this YX guy is towards the top of the F9 FOs. I think he couldn't bid the bus for at least another 7 years (fence), then behind the other 700 more senior RAH CAs / F9 FOs get a crack at it.

So, the point is moot, he's probably off enjoying life (hopefully)!

 

[dicko]

Dicko,

Your close. Though, the F9 guy misquoted their award.

Top 962 spots: 650 RAH:312 F9 CA (starting with RAH, roughly 2 RAH, then 1 F9 CA)
Next 1155 spots: 700 RAH : 334 F9 FOs : 121 YX pilots (again starting with RAH, roughly 4:2:1 pilots, very rough public math; but note, these YX guys are currently furloughed & who knows if they'll ever go to RAH as a relatively junior, much older FO)

This is where the birth date / hired date is found. There is a RAH FO who was born about the same time a YX Captain was hired at YX.

If you have the award, IMSL #1001 was born Oct '78 (RAH CA), while #1002 was hired at YX in Dec '78. The YX guy could come back as a RAH CA, but he's old enough for SS & I'm not sure he'll be young enough when he CAN bid back (any RAH guys have a better opinion/SLI interpretation?). Also, this YX guy is towards the top of the F9 FOs. I think he couldn't bid the bus for at least another 7 years (fence), then behind the other 700 more senior RAH CAs / F9 FOs get a crack at it.

So, the point is moot, he's probably off enjoying life (hopefully)!

Thanks. Glad to hear I wasn't completely losing it. My mistake

You're right. He did say it was a Midwest guy and a Republic guy. The fate of the Midwest guys is sickening. We've got many of them at AirTran. All of them are solid. They are a great pilot group who were screwed by the ego or their CEO (Mr Save my cookies)