So ASA's PBS Couldn't Build Me A Schedule...It Dumps Me On Reserve...WTF

[Oakum_Boy]

I had training and flew the last six days of this month. This two conflicts caused me to end up on reserve. Lower credit window and it wouldn't have happened. All you people who love pbs and think it can't happen to you. Just wait it can.

Oh yeah. I know what you're talking about. The problem with this donkey dung called PBS is that it IS a stupid computer program. It just looks at the credit window which has been an absurd 86-120 hours for the IAD guys.

The software simply forces you to work six days straight at least one week of the month if not two. Old dudes like me can't do that and maintain a family life not to mention I haven't done that kind of duty in over a decade.

Their staffing model is wrong and we're not hiring. Until we get the credit window to be set at a 75 hour minimum and we're staffed as such, life is going to suck.

There are some folks who may like working 120 hours, but I'm not one of them. I've put in my time, and still have virtually the same days on/off as the most junior lineholder and sometimes worse. Maybe less-brutal trips, but that's the only difference. It's wrong on every level.

 

[crj567]

All you "just learn how to bid" cheerleaders will sure change your tune when they stop dropping the minimum threshold.

Some people are starting to understand what will happen in such a scenario. Remember, there is nothing in writing which says they ever have to drop the window by anywhere near 10 or even 15 hours to make things work. When they don't "play nice" and drop the threshold, 95% + of us will be as upset as these guys.

-This ain't an opinion. It can and will happen-just as soon as XJET gets scammed into this dumpster of an agreement.

 

[brokeflyer]

I have TWO bid sheets...

The first one with 30 something preferences of fancy stuff that i want. The second one only has "Allow single days off", "Select all pairings before Reserve line etc"

And it STILL couldn't build me a line!!! WTFFFFFFFFFFFFF

So it dumps me back to reserve...and awards 7 guys junior to me a line.

Somebody please tell me how the FORK this is fair? I'm so close to throwing my monitor out the damn window. :angryfire

its because you work for total ******************** airline that dont care about anything but making money for the upper management criminals.

sad really

 

[LAB727]

aren't the reserve final schedules supposed to be out on the 25th?

 

[COOPERVANE]

That's just a suggestion. They don't really have to be out.

 

[Fishpaw]

Just curious? Who flies all the crappy trips you trade away? Some pilot at your company has to do that flying. Or, does the Company just say, "Fishpaw thinks this is a crappy trip, we just want make anybody fly it."

Can every pilot at your Company do what you do? I doubt it. Good for you; you can trade your crappy trips. But in the end, some poor bloat has to do your time. I doubt every pilot has the same view of your system.

Your system want survive--I guarantee it. If it does, we better all be looking for other jobs because we will find ourselves in the same position you guys were in about a year ago.

The trips that are still in open time after the Intial Line Improvement Window are mostly assigned to relief line holders in the secondary bid. Relief line holders then have the opportunity to trade their trips in the Secondary Line Improvement Window (which is basically the entire bid month). Anything in open time after that is assigned to reserves if it's not picked up by hard line or relief line holders.

We are always under min reserve coverage during the SLIW but our contract allows non day for day trades. These are called bad day/worse day trades. As long as the days you want to work have a net reserve coverge lower than the days you're trying to trade away, scheduling has to approve the trade. Bad day/worse day trades are also available for trading reserve days.

I've been on reserve, a relief line holder, and a hard line holder long enough to know that with our system I can get the days off that I want most of the time. All it takes is knowing the system and your awarded schedules can look completely different than what you actually fly.

I'm not saying every pilot at xjt has the same quality of life. Seniority still plays a huge part as well as if you're a hard line, relief line, or reserve line holder. For example, vacation for a reserve pilot is almost worthless when you compare it to a hard line holder. That is something that needs to be improved.


As for this part of our contract not surviving... Why? Do you only say this because it's not what you currently have? If you admit that it's something you'd also like, why not join the xjt pilots in fighting to keep it? The "position" our company was in prior to Skw Inc. purchasing us had nothing to do with the pilot contract, and everything to do with the decisions of CAL and our own management. If Skw Inc. wants cost cutting they can first combine the 3 airlines they own. If that ever happens then we can consider whether or not our contract is competitive.

 

[Nevets]

As for this part of our contract not surviving... Why? Do you only say this because it's not what you currently have? If you admit that it's something you'd also like, why not join the xjt pilots in fighting to keep it? The "position" our company was in prior to Skw Inc. purchasing us had nothing to do with the pilot contract, and everything to do with the decisions of CAL and our own management. If Skw Inc. wants cost cutting they can first combine the 3 airlines they own. If that ever happens then we can consider whether or not our contract is competitive.

Thank you! I thought I was the only one saying that they better not cry poor or not being "cost compititive" unless they save money by combining all three airlines FIRST!!!

Anyways, I can envision a joint contract with two different scheduling sections before I can see XJT pilots conceding anything more on their contract.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Thank you! I thought I was the only one saying that they better not cry poor or not being "cost compititive" unless they save money by combining all three airlines FIRST!!!

Time for a reality check here...Why do we want a single list? I wanted a single list with Delta/CMR/ASA, and I wanted a single list with Skywest...but what is the reason a single list is advantage to us as pilots and to other employee groups? Here's a hint...it ain't cheaper for the company....

Anyways, I can envision a joint contract with two different scheduling sections before I can see XJT pilots conceding anything more on their contract.

I'm thinking this may be the best way to go at this time...that way BOTH sides are happy. Let's just keep the groups seperate...Most of you guys don't want PBS or 700s/900s, so it really wouldn't hurt to just stay seperate.

 

[Clutch]

Separate... Thank me later.

 

[Master Shake]

For my ASA brothers, tonight was our secondary line improvement window. I am a junior captain in ORD . I took my 88 hour 15 day off relief line and MOVED DAYS TO GET WEEKENDS OFF, so that I now have a 102hr line with 14 days off. PBS can suck it. I'm voting to keep this life improving system we have at XJT.

 

[777forever]

For my ASA brothers, tonight was our secondary line improvement window. I am a junior captain in ORD . I took my 88 hour 15 day off relief line and MOVED DAYS TO GET WEEKENDS OFF, so that I now have a 102hr line with 14 days off. PBS can suck it. I'm voting to keep this life improving system we have at XJT.

Do all lineholders end up with weekends off at XJT? Seems like every post about the XJT system is about how someone went from a garbage hard line or garbage relief line to 14+days off including weekends off. There has to be some negative side effects of that system.

 

[enuffalready]

For my ASA brothers, tonight was our secondary line improvement window. I am a junior captain in ORD . I took my 88 hour 15 day off relief line and MOVED DAYS TO GET WEEKENDS OFF, so that I now have a 102hr line with 14 days off. PBS can suck it. I'm voting to keep this life improving system we have at XJT.

too all my EXJ brothers... I am dead last on the seniority list at ASA. Because of PBS i was able to drop all my IAD FO trips and pick up left seat 90 seat trips with weekends off. My pay has gone from $25 an hour to $102. suck it

 

[ASAFOE120]

For my ASA brothers, tonight was our secondary line improvement window. I am a junior captain in ORD . I took my 88 hour 15 day off relief line and MOVED DAYS TO GET WEEKENDS OFF, so that I now have a 102hr line with 14 days off. PBS can suck it. I'm voting to keep this life improving system we have at XJT.

Well, guess my vote will cancel your then.

Look. You cannot move days at ASA. Every day @ EV is a low coverage day. They run this place so short, that basically you have to swap trips over the same days. You may request all you want, but they dont, and wont, have to approve a thing.

Ive been here 10 years and with line bidding, I never EVER got weekends off. Tried to trade for them but denied for "low coverage" was always the result. I would get a max of 12 days off a month. PERIOD.

With PBS, I avg 15 days off, 85-90 hrs, and partial weekends off (which is what i bid for commuatability). I am also able to build large groups of days off in a row each month and split pairings. And still maximize vacation. You have to do this when bidding opens because once again, once your line is final, you cannot move days!!!! Low coverage!!!!

I know, you can do all that over there with your line bidding. Thats all we here from yall. Well, once Brad and Charlie and the boys get yall over here with us, those days will be history. Im not trying to be a wise guy dissin on your line bidding, but these fellers (including Jerry) play hardball.

And Jerry doesnt mind shifting flying over to SKW. You piss him off and see what happens. Just like when he took 4 of our 700's last time we were in negotiations resulting in downgrades. And all the flyin SKYW did out in ATL during negotiations. When was the last time a EV bird flew through SLC? Oh and, which airline furloughed? Not SKYW.

You dont place nice with Jerry, and see what happens.

Thats all i have to say, about that.

 

[Master Shake]

Look guys, I've read this thread from start to finish and that's why I posted what I was able to do. We move days around here by doing bad day/ worse day trades. That was my point. With some creativity and time, I really can improve my schedule. That's all. Seriously, I'm glad you last few guys love your PBS. But due to my intense distrust of management, I cannot in vote yes to any TA that includes PBS. So I suppose we'll all just have to wait and see how this thing plays out. Fly Safe.

 

[Nevets]

Time for a reality check here...Why do we want a single list? I wanted a single list with Delta/CMR/ASA, and I wanted a single list with Skywest...but what is the reason a single list is advantage to us as pilots and to other employee groups? Here's a hint...it ain't cheaper for the company....



I'm thinking this may be the best way to go at this time...that way BOTH sides are happy. Let's just keep the groups seperate...Most of you guys don't want PBS or 700s/900s, so it really wouldn't hurt to just stay seperate.

I get what you are saying with the one list thing but if it isn't cheaper to the company, then why are they merging us and espousing all the synergy savings to the stock investors? It's fact that they save in operating costs by consolidating us. And I know exactly why they don't one list us with Skywest. I'm just saying that from my point of view in the cockpit, I won't vote for ANY concession while they are paying for two sets of management groups.

As for keeping us separate from your shiny 700/900 jets, you can have them. We only get about a $1 less than you do anyways. Not even in close to worth your PBS system. But I wasn't talking about keeping us separate. I was talking about a joint contract with two different scheduling sections depending on what flying/aircraft you bid.

Do all lineholders end up with weekends off at XJT? Seems like every post about the XJT system is about how someone went from a garbage hard line or garbage relief line to 14+days off including weekends off. There has to be some negative side effects of that system.

The people that fly weekends are the lineholders that want to fly weekends (like me), releif lineholders, and reserves.

Well, once Brad and Charlie and the boys get yall over here with us, those days will be history. Im not trying to be a wise guy dissin on your line bidding, but these fellers (including Jerry) play hardball.

And Jerry doesnt mind shifting flying over to SKW. You piss him off and see what happens. Just like when he took 4 of our 700's last time we were in negotiations resulting in downgrades. And all the flyin SKYW did out in ATL during negotiations. When was the last time a EV bird flew through SLC? Oh and, which airline furloughed? Not SKYW.

You dont place nice with Jerry, and see what happens.

Thats all i have to say, about that.

I don't doubt JA would like to do any and all of that. He pretty much threatened to do it the first time he tried to buy XJT so I know it's in his nature. But just wanted to point out that our transition and process agreement prevents him from doing that right now. They cannot force us into a contract with your PBS. We have to vote to accept it. There is no provision for arbitration of the joint contract negotiations in the transition and process agreement. They have to operate us separate with our separate contracts and scheduling rules until we ratify a joint contract. They cannot shift any aircraft or block hours while we are two separate pilot groups. And I doubt our MEC will go for any scope that doesn't prevent aircraft from being shifted without protecting the pilots.

 

[shamrock]

Ive been here 10 years and with line bidding, I never EVER got weekends off. Tried to trade for them but denied for "low coverage" was always the result. I would get a max of 12 days off a month. PERIOD.

How did you manage that? I'm within shouting distance of 10 years here and outside of our dearly departed INT days I went a good 2.5-3 years without working a weekend or holiday unless i chose to. I also averaged probably a minimum of 13-14 days off per month (usually closer to 15 or 16) with line bidding for the last 3 years I was in the right seat and those 13-14 day off months even carried over into the first year or two i was in the left seat.

I'm not trying to be a smartarse, I'm just trying to figure out how our experiences can be so radically different.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Shamrock...aren't you bidding naps?

 

[shamrock]

Nope. I haven't ever looked but if I had to guess I'd say I'm probably a good 150 numbers away from being able to hold naps.

 

[CRJ puppy]

Just because you believe you bid correctly doesn't mean you actually did. That's like you telling everyone you are "cool". Or making up your own nickname. Have you spoken with the PBS working group. I have talked to lots of people who were in similar situation to what you described and through some discussion it was determined that it was operator fault for not fully understanding it, or for overlooking a detail. More then likely from what you described, the people below you had something else during the month like vacation or training that allowed preassigned credit and for whatever few pairing were left to be enough to build a schedule.

There is no setting in PBS that allows the computer to know who you personally are and award you crap out of spite because it thinks your a d-bag. It simply awards on logic and input from users.

Agreed!

Part of bidding "correctly" is understanding what you can realistically expect at your relative seniority in your seat and domicile with whatever other events are scheduled in that month...whether that be training, vacation, carry in trips etc etc etc. Having an unrealistic expectation given fluid company line construction parameters will always lead to unhappiness.

 

[ASAFOE120]

How did you manage that? I'm within shouting distance of 10 years here and outside of our dearly departed INT days I went a good 2.5-3 years without working a weekend or holiday unless i chose to. I also averaged probably a minimum of 13-14 days off per month (usually closer to 15 or 16) with line bidding for the last 3 years I was in the right seat and those 13-14 day off months even carried over into the first year or two i was in the left seat.

I'm not trying to be a smartarse, I'm just trying to figure out how our experiences can be so radically different.

Don't know how u got that. I was the weekend king. Thur-Sun 4 days with 12 days off. Matter of fact, with line budding I was barely above reserve. Jul 09, I was on reserve with line bidding! Of course 1/3 of us were before PBS.