SKYW CRJ2 in ATL?

[johnboy99]

Uuum......Bull Sh!t.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stick to what you know.

OK then. Your ramp operations and ticket agents were taken away from ASA because of piss poor custmer service. I once saw an ASA ramper pick up a customers cell phone right after he dropped it on the ramp and put in in his pocket, with people watching. Since Delta has taken over the ramp sucks just not as bad. Blame whomever you want but at the end of the day the FAA statistics say ATLANTIC SOUTHEAST AIRLINES. Seperate from DELTA.

If you have been to JFK so much you will know Delta's operations are even worse than ATL. Not uncommon to see a line of RJ's six or seven deep waiting on a gate. Heck, you will see several mainline planes waiting for a gate on a closed runway. It is the way Delta likes to treat its customers.

All I am saying is it could be worse, ATL on its worst day is better than any place in NYC. Sorry if I struck a nerve

 

[Stifler's Mom]

My hub airport is worse than yours!!!!!!

 

[USCtrojan]

OK then. Your ramp operations and ticket agents were taken away from ASA because of piss poor custmer service. I once saw an ASA ramper pick up a customers cell phone right after he dropped it on the ramp and put in in his pocket, with people watching. Since Delta has taken over the ramp sucks just not as bad. Blame whomever you want but at the end of the day the FAA statistics say ATLANTIC SOUTHEAST AIRLINES. Seperate from DELTA.

If you have been to JFK so much you will know Delta's operations are even worse than ATL. Not uncommon to see a line of RJ's six or seven deep waiting on a gate. Heck, you will see several mainline planes waiting for a gate on a closed runway. It is the way Delta likes to treat its customers.

All I am saying is it could be worse, ATL on its worst day is better than any place in NYC. Sorry if I struck a nerve

They are being taken from SkyWest as well in SLC. It's the new "Delta." It has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with the "Bottom Line." All outstations are in the process of tranferring to "Regional Elite Services" or whatever the popular name is for it these days. They are absolutely HORRIBLE in performance. It's the new Northwest, err, I mean Delta.

Trojan

 

[79%N1]

OK then. Your ramp operations and ticket agents were taken away from ASA because of piss poor custmer service. I once saw an ASA ramper pick up a customers cell phone right after he dropped it on the ramp and put in in his pocket, with people watching. Since Delta has taken over the ramp sucks just not as bad. Blame whomever you want but at the end of the day the FAA statistics say ATLANTIC SOUTHEAST AIRLINES. Seperate from DELTA.

If you have been to JFK so much you will know Delta's operations are even worse than ATL. Not uncommon to see a line of RJ's six or seven deep waiting on a gate. Heck, you will see several mainline planes waiting for a gate on a closed runway. It is the way Delta likes to treat its customers.

All I am saying is it could be worse, ATL on its worst day is better than any place in NYC. Sorry if I struck a nerve

And again, wrong Mr Genius......

The ramp is as bad if not worse now under Delta than ASA! Any ramper anywhere can be a bad seed/thief. I recall some baaaad dudes in Philly in my USAIR days. I recall some arrests in New York, LA and Chicago. Hmm. Not solely an ASA thing.

JFK DOES NOT have nearly 1000 DCI flights per day like ATL. Apples and oranges, my friend. Like I said, I've been there many times and there was never 100 planes on the ground in JFK at once like there are in ATL at any given push.

Part of the reason Delta took the ASA ramp and Gate people was the raiding and slashing of our travel benefits. Big D knew that many (most) of those employees would quit - because they could make the same money bagging groceries or flipping burgers - and they knew it would shut ATL down. So, they took them over to Delta, which actually improved their travel bennies.

Any thing else, since you are slandering the people of ASA and you don't have a clue??

 

[CFI2766]

We really have to take some time to think about that one. We also need to be very careful what we ask or wish for. We just may get something with some serious unintended consequences. If this 12 hour rule comes down, we may have painted ourselves into a corner with ANY prohibition on this sort of stuff. There may guys out there that will take something like this and we should not put in things that would make them waive the contract to make more.

Personally, I feel a better rule from the FAA would simply involve limiting a scheduled day to no longer than 12 hours of duty and allow up 16 for IROPS, etc. If the 12 hour duty day comes down, we may be hosed no matter which way we look at it.

Respectfully, I would disagree with up to 16 hours for IROPS. That is basically what we have now. Facing facts here, I am forced to fly my schedule when I am fatigued. There is nothing in our FOM that prevents me from receiving an occurence when I call in fatigued; ergo, I will ultimately be disciplined if I call in genuinely fatigued in accordance with the FOM.

I don't quite understand your first paragraph. I believe that you are saying that it would be better to not have a prohibition on 5 day trips so that folks could work 5 days, or more, in a row if they chose to do so. Fair enough, but I strongly disagree that 5 day trips should be the norm, or, something forced on a pilot's schedule if they really don't want them.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

You make me laugh. You must have never been through any NYC airport. Most any day clear or not the three metro airports (EWR, LGA, JFK) have delays. ATL is like taking candy from a baby. ASA has always struggled. I commuted from CHA for 2 years through ATL on the ASA ATR. 25 minute flight and we would sit waiting for a gate for 30 minutes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Commuted through ATL last month for the first time in months. Guess what we waited for a gate then swithced concourses and waited some more. Then waited for a jetway driver.

PS. The ontime problems at ASA have very little to do with ATL weather and everything to do with the ASA operation. Come to NYC if you want to see real delays. When you are given holding instructions 700 miles from your destination then you can complain.

Wow man, you are completely clueless! LMAO

 

[JoeMerchant]

Respectfully, I would disagree with up to 16 hours for IROPS. That is basically what we have now. Facing facts here, I am forced to fly my schedule when I am fatigued. There is nothing in our FOM that prevents me from receiving an occurence when I call in fatigued; ergo, I will ultimately be disciplined if I call in genuinely fatigued in accordance with the FOM.

I don't quite understand your first paragraph. I believe that you are saying that it would be better to not have a prohibition on 5 day trips so that folks could work 5 days, or more, in a row if they chose to do so. Fair enough, but I strongly disagree that 5 day trips should be the norm, or, something forced on a pilot's schedule if they really don't want them.

If we are talking safety ONLY....Then we should do away with Naps and back side of the clock flying altogether...Have you ever jumpseated on UPS or Fedex? They are tired folks.

If we are talking safety ONLY....Then we should limit late duty ins to about 8 hours of duty.

If we are talking safety ONLY...Then we should limit the duty day to 8 hours...

If we are talking safety ONLY...Then we should mandate that commuters get to domicile the day before duty in and should mandate that they get a hotel room or a crash pad....Something tells me the "safety argument" is compromised by pilots who are too cheap to get a good night sleep before duty in, or want more time at home instead of getting adequate sleep.

There is a cost factor and a risk factor and a QOL factor to this equation.....Going too far on the "safety/risk" factor will affect QOL...Affecting QOL will then in turn affect "safety/risk" as people spend more time away from home....Something to think about.

We have a unique job and unique schedules...it comes with the job...If you want "bankers hours"...this isn't the job for you...

Keep in mind, the Colgan crew had very adequate rest....That wasn't the problem.

 

[Tarzan]

Respectfully, I would disagree with up to 16 hours for IROPS. That is basically what we have now. Facing facts here, I am forced to fly my schedule when I am fatigued. There is nothing in our FOM that prevents me from receiving an occurence when I call in fatigued; ergo, I will ultimately be disciplined if I call in genuinely fatigued in accordance with the FOM.

I don't quite understand your first paragraph. I believe that you are saying that it would be better to not have a prohibition on 5 day trips so that folks could work 5 days, or more, in a row if they chose to do so. Fair enough, but I strongly disagree that 5 day trips should be the norm, or, something forced on a pilot's schedule if they really don't want them.

I understand your reluctance although the guys in CPO seem to take most of that in stride. They will ask a series of questions about why your are fatigued. If you had kids running up and down your hallway all night at the hotel, you'll likely be sent home with pay. However, if you stayed up late watching the football game, you'll probably get nicked for it. My concern is how badly that will hurt any company whenever you get into an IROPS scenario. If are limited to 12 scheduled hours with eight hours behind the door, if there is no exception for IROPS, we'll be severely handicapped dealing with anything that doesn't allow for perfect operations. Either way, this will likely be FAA mandated and we'll all have to live with it.

My first paragraph while fuzzy was interpreted correctly. We should try to stay away from absolutes but if this thing with the 12 hour drop dead rule passes we may stuck with crappy lines necessitating longer trips to make money. That is what I want to be careful of.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I understand your reluctance although the guys in CPO seem to take most of that in stride. They will ask a series of questions about why your are fatigued. If you had kids running up and down your hallway all night at the hotel, you'll likely be sent home with pay. However, if you stayed up late watching the football game, you'll probably get nicked for it. My concern is how badly that will hurt any company whenever you get into an IROPS scenario. If are limited to 12 scheduled hours with eight hours behind the door, if there is no exception for IROPS, we'll be severely handicapped dealing with anything that doesn't allow for perfect operations. Either way, this will likely be FAA mandated and we'll all have to live with it.

My first paragraph while fuzzy was interpreted correctly. We should try to stay away from absolutes but if this thing with the 12 hour drop dead rule passes we may stuck with crappy lines necessitating longer trips to make money. That is what I want to be careful of.

Well said....A 12 hour drop dead time would result in 9-10 hour duty days and 12 days off for everyone.

 

[blesko]

If we are talking safety ONLY...Then we should mandate that commuters get to domicile the day before duty in and should mandate that they get a hotel room or a crash pad.....

Apparently you've never commuted. That's the most assinine comment I've ever heard. You're part of MY pilot group??? If you want to preach "safety" tell the airline to stop closing domiciles!!!! People have a wife and kids, which you might not, at some point, you dont want to move a wife and kids from their current job and school. You wanna be an advocate, talk to commuters before you run your damn mouth

 

[JoeMerchant]

Apparently you've never commuted. That's the most assinine comment I've ever heard. You're part of MY pilot group??? If you want to preach "safety" tell the airline to stop closing domiciles!!!! People have a wife and kids, which you might not, at some point, you dont want to move a wife and kids from their current job and school. You wanna be an advocate, talk to commuters before you run your damn mouth

I am a commuter...I'm talking "SAFETY"...Isn't that what everyone is crying about now? I don't want the rules to change at all....Just warning people of the "law of unintended consequences".

Like a game of Chess....It's important to look a few moves ahead when looking at any proposal...I don't see good things coming from this.

Before you run your "damn mouth"....maybe you should consider the consequences of what is happening...I think we are on the same side...I suspect you want more time at home as a commuter?

 

[blesko]

I am a commuter...I'm talking "SAFETY"...Isn't that what everyone is crying about now? I don't want the rules to change at all....Just warning people of the "law of unintended consequences".

Like a game of Chess....It's important to look a few moves ahead when looking at any proposal...I don't see good things coming from this.

Before you run your "damn mouth"....maybe you should consider the consequences of what is happening...I think we are on the same side...I suspect you want more time at home as a commuter?

No, yambag, I don't want more time at home as a commuter. I want to ensure that we are not mandated to document a night in domicile before starting a trip either in a crashpad or hotel. That's probably not the way to warn people. You need to dumb it down. For us commuters, we need things to stay as they are. If you commute, you assume the risk and reward, go from there

 

[79%N1]

Apparently you've never commuted. That's the most assinine comment I've ever heard. You're part of MY pilot group??? If you want to preach "safety" tell the airline to stop closing domiciles!!!! People have a wife and kids, which you might not, at some point, you dont want to move a wife and kids from their current job and school. You wanna be an advocate, talk to commuters before you run your damn mouth

Geez!

I think the guy was just pointing out that there are hipocracies in the rule making, and watch what you wish for. I think he meant that obviously it is not all about safety - as some claim - or the rules would have to be different.

You were a bit harsh there.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, yambag, I don't want more time at home as a commuter. I want to ensure that we are not mandated to document a night in domicile before starting a trip either in a crashpad or hotel. That's probably not the way to warn people. You need to dumb it down. For us commuters, we need things to stay as they are. If you commute, you assume the risk and reward, go from there

I'm on your side dude...You may want to tone it down a bit...

I was pointing out the hypocrisy on the "safety nazi" arguments for tighter rules...If you are going to argue safety, then you need to be consistent....Many aren't consistent in their arguments...

Why don't you want more time at home? Isn't that your point?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Geez!

I think the guy was just pointing out that there are hipocracies in the rule making, and watch what you wish for. I think he meant that obviously it is not all about safety - as some claim - or the rules would have to be different.

You were a bit harsh there.

I'm glad someone saw my point...:beer:

Sometimes I think people don't really understand what is said on this forum....

 

[blesko]

I'm glad someone saw my point...:beer:

Sometimes I think people don't really understand what is said on this forum....

Ok guys, fair enough. Point taken. Sarcasm is often lost across the boards. Unfortuately, everything we do is going to be smoke and mirrors for the general public, and as long as NYC-LAX tix are 149 r/t nobody cares

 

[CFI2766]

I'm on your side dude...You may want to tone it down a bit...

I was pointing out the hypocrisy on the "safety nazi" arguments for tighter rules...If you are going to argue safety, then you need to be consistent....Many aren't consistent in their arguments...

Why don't you want more time at home? Isn't that your point?

Whoooaaa there Joe...let me get this right: you are accusing anyone who doesn't agree with your priorities in scheduling of being a 'safety nazi'?


(Are the people who pushed for overwing emergency exit doors 'safety nazis'? Are the people who pushed for aircraft weather radar 'safety nazis'? How about the folks who pushed for auto-feathering props? Are they 'safety nazis' too? In fact, all of these things increase costs and decrease the airline's bottom line, thereby having 'unintended consequences'. By your logic, these technologies decrease airline profitability and therefore hurt your earnings potential and your quality of life. Would you lobby for the removal of these technologies from modern transport category aircraft? Really? Now maybe we should talk about being consistent...)

And then you introduce the concept of hypocrisy?

After making this statement:

I am a commuter...I'm talking "SAFETY"...Isn't that what everyone is crying about now? I don't want the rules to change at all....Just warning people of the "law of unintended consequences".

You simply can't get any more hypocritical than that. Let's face some facts here, Joe. You clearly don't give a d@mn about fatigue related safety issues. What you are concerned about is your schedule and your quality of life that you have attained by virtue of your seniority. You don't want the rules to change at all because you are, probably correctly, concerned that your quality of life or earnings will take a hit.

Frankly, TFB.

You have the schedule that you have because the company builds some lines that allow for adequate rest, these would be the lines that you are senior enough to hold, and builds other lines that do not allow for adequate rest, which the rest of us get. Stated another way, you enjoy the opportunity to hold a schedule that works for you at the cost of your coworkers inability to hold a schedule that realistically addresses fatigue issues.

Fatige is a serious threat to the safety of airline transportation. This has been shown multiple time well prior to the tragic Colgan accident. To attempt to stonewall meaningful progress on this clear and present threat to the safety of airline operations becasue of perceived decreases to your personal quality of life or earnings is shameful and incredibly selfish.

 

[Tarzan]

CFI2766, I believe there are plenty of people out there that toss the safety card to get them out of situation they don't care for. Take Dual Qual. Plenty of senior claim safety but in the bigger picture, it comes down to pay. They don't want to get stuck on a airplane they don't like for less pay for a one month if they got hosed on a bid.

So far as fatigue goes, we need to fix some of this stuff or tighten the scope but for true relief you'd be ready to leave the profession because of the lousy trips, the inability to have a schedule that gave you anytime meaningful time at home and less pay.

 

[CFI2766]

CFI2766, I believe there are plenty of people out there that toss the safety card to get them out of situation they don't care for. Take Dual Qual. Plenty of senior claim safety but in the bigger picture, it comes down to pay. They don't want to get stuck on a airplane they don't like for less pay for a one month if they got hosed on a bid.

So far as fatigue goes, we need to fix some of this stuff or tighten the scope but for true relief you'd be ready to leave the profession because of the lousy trips, the inability to have a schedule that gave you anytime meaningful time at home and less pay.

I'll give you that this life will not equal a M-F 9 to 5 existence. That's not what I'm after. I don't need 'banker' hours to do this.

What I do need is real changes from the current situation.

 

[spudskier]

So far as fatigue goes, we need to fix some of this stuff or tighten the scope but for true relief you'd be ready to leave the profession because of the lousy trips, the inability to have a schedule that gave you anytime meaningful time at home and less pay.

Which is why I'm on Monster.com, hotjobs.com and a few other job sites right now. After being bumped down in seniority for the third time in less than three years and now completely losing the ability to get friday, saturday OR (not AND) Sunday off and working 4-day trips on an 89-hour line (while we're apparently flying thousands of fewer hours!? BS), I'm done... out. Sure I'm lucky to have a job which is why I didn't just walk into a chief pilot's office and quit when I got my prelim October schedule. We have over 130 guys on the street, and the bottom half of the pilot group is working 80+ credit hour lines... BS again... As of last january, being about half-way up the list I was holding 3-day partial weekend trips.... now I'm working 4-day fri-mon trips from hell and barely holding onto a line by the time November rolls around. Thanks SH.

Again I'm lucky that my commute while stressful and long, is relatively easy and versatile in terms of available flights and ease of getting a jump seat. I'm in pretty good shape on almost every start of a trip even if I have to take the crack o' dawn flight into ATL to start a trip... since crew planning stacks trips in the opposite way they're supposed to (they typically back load the flights on a trip so there are more legs on the last day then the rest of the trip combined instead of front-loading like the contract asks them to do when able) I worry more about the drive home after waking up at 3:30am, working 5 legs then commuting home than I do about the 3-5 legs on day 1.

Being home and spending time with my wife, family and friends means more to me than anything in this world and this company's inability to realize they have human beings working for them is something I'm not equipped to deal with. What goes around, comes around and if BH was smart, he'd do a little more in-house cleaning.

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