SKYW CRJ2 in ATL?

[CFI2766]

I'm pretty senior, and I very much want to grow....Not all of us at the top are that short sighted....We very much need to worry about growth.

Wisdom here.


The more we shrink, the more expensive a product we produce. Simple fact of life. Too expensive, and ASA could cease to exist at the worst possible point in the careers of the senior guys here.

However, I'll agree with others in this post in that the more senior types enjoying life on the 90/70 vocally could care less about what happens to the junior FOs. As long as the lines are good, and there is plenty of open time for those that want it, they are fine with life.

 

[JumpersAway]

What r u smoking? The lines are decent?!? Lines have sucks for the past 8 months and getting worse! I'm sure there's something they can do, but they can't get much worse. Used to be able to hold 3-day trips... Thanks SH.

Decent is a relative term. You think they're bad now, wait until you have your choice pick of five day trips after the new fatigue initiative and rest rules are implimented. It can get worse, believe me- it can ALWAYS get worse..................

 

[CFI2766]

Decent is a relative term. You think they're bad now, wait until you have your choice pick of five day trips after the new fatigue initiative and rest rules are implimented. It can get worse, believe me- it can ALWAYS get worse..................

There is a lot of talk about 5 day trips here and out on the line lately.

Has anyone seen any analysis of why 5 day trips would suddenly be the norm? If we are tacitly agreeing that 5 day trips would save the company money with the new rest rules, wouldn't they save the company money now? Why aren't our schedules filled with 5 day trips now? Why is Skywest's schedules filled with 5 day trips?

I believe that the combination of existing rest rules and contractual trip and duty rigs make 5 day trips a non-starter. 30 in 7 and 100 in 30 as existing limits (which could be lowered even further) make five day trips difficult. Throw in the trip and duty rigs, as well as minimum monthly days off, and 5 day trips seem even less plausible at ASA.

If 5 day trips are in our future, I predict that they are part of a negotiating tactic. As well, I've personally already seen an attempt by the folks who control costs at our company to use the scare tactic of 5 day trips as a ploy.

 

[Cpt Oveur]

Don't put the cart before the horse. The proposals are not yet rules.

 

[JoeMerchant]

If there is any truth to the rumor about a 12 hour duty day and stricter limits based on the number of legs...You can expect worse schedules...Especially on the 50 because of the short legs.

Anytime you limit the flexibility and limit the ability to get as close to 8 hours per day....you increase the days required to get the same amount of flying.

 

[CFI2766]

Don't put the cart before the horse. The proposals are not yet rules.

Fair enough. I think that most people believe that there will be changes to the rest rules, read as a good watering down to make more 'productive' rules.

All that being said, I just don't see a month of 5 day trips as a reality, unless we go to a 5 on 5 off sort of schedule.

I see 5 day trips as much more of a fear tactic to attempt to get the various pilot groups to squawk from the line up to 'play ball' with the idea of no changes to the existing rest rules.

 

[Tarzan]

Fair enough. I think that most people believe that there will be changes to the rest rules, read as a good watering down to make more 'productive' rules.

All that being said, I just don't see a month of 5 day trips as a reality, unless we go to a 5 on 5 off sort of schedule.

I see 5 day trips as much more of a fear tactic to attempt to get the various pilot groups to squawk from the line up to 'play ball' with the idea of no changes to the existing rest rules.

5 day trips could be a possiblity is the FAA institutes their version of a 12 hour duty day. Guys will screaming for Pref Bid if that comes to pass. I doubt our company would go that far.

 

[79%N1]

I'm out when 5 day trips are the norm in this sh!t industry. No way I'm spending 5 out of every 7 days away from home! 4 is enough......

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I'm out when 5 day trips are the norm in this sh!t industry. No way I'm spending 5 out of every 7 days away from home! 4 is enough......

My initial thought was, if I see 5-day trips, I better see them followed by at least 4-days off. As opposed to our normal 4-on, 3-off trips.

 

[777forever]

If there is any truth to the rumor about a 12 hour duty day and stricter limits based on the number of legs...You can expect worse schedules...Especially on the 50 because of the short legs.

Anytime you limit the flexibility and limit the ability to get as close to 8 hours per day....you increase the days required to get the same amount of flying.

If 5 days are the result let it be then. Its absolutely ridiculous to be on duty for 13 to 14hrs as it is. Fatigue is most certainly a critical issue after 12 hrs. 15-16hrs of duty is complete nonsense and should never be allowed. Can the airlines not create schedules that don't have crews sitting 2-3hrs between flights? Airlines should be able to operate normally with a 12 max scheduled duty 14 max duty
day.

If 5 day trips are the result then so be it. At least the skies will be a lot safer with more rested crews. IMO, which is strongly influenced by SH's previous tactics, I strongly believe the 5 day trips rumor is merely a scare tactic.

 

[bluefly72]

The next time SH is in recurrent, why don't you just service him right then and there? I am sure he would be so appreciative that he would exclude you from any and all upcoming cuts.

Do you take everything seriously, don't you?

 

[Cpt Oveur]

If 5 days are the result let it be then. Its absolutely ridiculous to be on duty for 13 to 14hrs as it is. Fatigue is most certainly a critical issue after 12 hrs. 15-16hrs of duty is complete nonsense and should never be allowed. Can the airlines not create schedules that don't have crews sitting 2-3hrs between flights? Airlines should be able to operate normally with a 12 max scheduled duty 14 max duty
day.

If 5 day trips are the result then so be it. At least the skies will be a lot safer with more rested crews. IMO, which is strongly influenced by SH's previous tactics, I strongly believe the 5 day trips rumor is merely a scare tactic.

Of course they can operate with duty days no longer than 12 hours, but how many pilots would they have to recall to achieve that? I don't like long sits, however, I never threw out curse words at them when were badly behind schedule and the 3 hour break turned into a quick turn. Something to think about.

I don't think SH was using it as a scare tactic, he did explain that it would only be in response to FAR changes, which haven't happened yet.

If you feel so strongly that a 15-16 hour duty day is that bad, have you sent a NASA report or a COR/RIF to your company? The fact that there are practically no reports for this is exactly what the company and other companies go to the FAA to say that it works.

 

[sweptback]

All that will change is that we'll see Delta (and other companies) start building the trips around crew needs, not around when the passenger wants to fly.

 

[777forever]

Of course they can operate with duty days no longer than 12 hours, but how many pilots would they have to recall to achieve that? I don't like long sits, however, I never threw out curse words at them when were badly behind schedule and the 3 hour break turned into a quick turn. Something to think about.

I don't think SH was using it as a scare tactic, he did explain that it would only be in response to FAR changes, which haven't happened yet.

If you feel so strongly that a 15-16 hour duty day is that bad, have you sent a NASA report or a COR/RIF to your company? The fact that there are practically no reports for this is exactly what the company and other companies go to the FAA to say that it works.

Leave no doubt 15-16hrs a day is doable. But I strongly believe safety is compromised. Think about it, you've been on duty for 15-16hrs, plus the time you were up getting ready and driving to work, there is no human being that can be mentally at their peak. Studies have shown mental awareness and reaction drop down drastically in this duty range.

Even in Europe they've updated their duty limit to around 12 hrs I believe. The USA duty regs are very outdated. Its time for a change.

 

[spudskier]

If 5 days are the result let it be then. Its absolutely ridiculous to be on duty for 13 to 14hrs as it is. Fatigue is most certainly a critical issue after 12 hrs. 15-16hrs of duty is complete nonsense and should never be allowed. Can the airlines not create schedules that don't have crews sitting 2-3hrs between flights? Airlines should be able to operate normally with a 12 max scheduled duty 14 max duty
day.

If 5 day trips are the result then so be it. At least the skies will be a lot safer with more rested crews. IMO, which is strongly influenced by SH's previous tactics, I strongly believe the 5 day trips rumor is merely a scare tactic.

Nu uh... Like others said, if it goes to 5-day trips as the norm, I'm out. We are humans, we have lives outside of work, children, wives, etc... it's not fair to them, friends, etc... sure there are a lot of bitter divorcés and single guys who don't care but those are the guys that can pick up the day lines left over.

I know other places do 7on/7off but the key part is 7off consistently, with known days off. If the airlines do it, you can bet it will be 5on/ 3 or 4 off.

Regional airlines are already going to have hard enough time finding enough pilots when the 65ers start retiring en mass... they won't be able to keep anyone who has been abused by the horrid schedules leading up to that!

F&@$ 121 (mostly regionals)

 

[JumpersAway]

Nu uh... Like others said, if it goes to 5-day trips as the norm, I'm out. We are humans, we have lives outside of work, children, wives, etc... it's not fair to them, friends, etc... sure there are a lot of bitter divorcés and single guys who don't care but those are the guys that can pick up the day lines left over.

I know other places do 7on/7off but the key part is 7off consistently, with known days off. If the airlines do it, you can bet it will be 5on/ 3 or 4 off.

Regional airlines are already going to have hard enough time finding enough pilots when the 65ers start retiring en mass... they won't be able to keep anyone who has been abused by the horrid schedules leading up to that!

F&@$ 121 (mostly regionals)

Like one of the Captains I flew with told me..... "The difference in work ethic between Americans and Europeans is that the Europeans work to live, while the Americans live to work".

 

[CFI2766]

If 5 days are the result let it be then. Its absolutely ridiculous to be on duty for 13 to 14hrs as it is. Fatigue is most certainly a critical issue after 12 hrs. 15-16hrs of duty is complete nonsense and should never be allowed. Can the airlines not create schedules that don't have crews sitting 2-3hrs between flights? Airlines should be able to operate normally with a 12 max scheduled duty 14 max duty
day.

If 5 day trips are the result then so be it. At least the skies will be a lot safer with more rested crews. IMO, which is strongly influenced by SH's previous tactics, I strongly believe the 5 day trips rumor is merely a scare tactic.

+1. Well said. It is dangerous and should not be forced upon a pilot. If it means that pilots only earn their MMG, even if they spend up to the maximum allowable time away from home to do it, then so be it.

 

[CFI2766]

All that will change is that we'll see Delta (and other companies) start building the trips around crew needs, not around when the passenger wants to fly.

+1

I think that there will be more of a blend of crew needs and customer needs than now, certainly. As it currently exists, the company(s) could care less what impact the schedule has on the health and fatigue state of the pilots.

 

[CFI2766]

I'm out when 5 day trips are the norm in this sh!t industry. No way I'm spending 5 out of every 7 days away from home! 4 is enough......

This has been said quite a bit lately, as well. Frankly, I gotta call BS on this line of thought. There are very few pilots at ASA, or other carriers, that can leave the airline industry and immediately find a job that pays them enough to maintain their accustomed lifestyle.

Just reality, folks. Also, this reality is part of why 5 day schedules are even a potential option in the arsenal of the collective management.

 

[10nCLR]

Congrats to the passionate employees of SkyWest for being 3rd on the DOT on-time arrival list for July, now on the downside, our sister carrier was at the bottom(18th) just ahead of Comair. What gives? On a side note, SkyWest, Inc August traffic rose 8.5%.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/DOT-releases-airline-delay-apf-3260885375.html?x=0&.v=1