SKYW CRJ2 in ATL?

[Tarzan]

If it were up to me, I'd work a prohibition on 5 day trips into the language of this PBS agreement. The agreement seems to be quite a bit larger than a simple LOA; now would be a perfect time to take 5 day trips out of the equation no matter what regulation comes down the line.

We really have to take some time to think about that one. We also need to be very careful what we ask or wish for. We just may get something with some serious unintended consequences. If this 12 hour rule comes down, we may have painted ourselves into a corner with ANY prohibition on this sort of stuff. There may guys out there that will take something like this and we should not put in things that would make them waive the contract to make more.

Personally, I feel a better rule from the FAA would simply involve limiting a scheduled day to no longer than 12 hours of duty and allow up 16 for IROPS, etc. If the 12 hour duty day comes down, we may be hosed no matter which way we look at it.

 

[johnboy99]

This is a common argument against ASA in ATL. Numbers are in the low 90 % for ontime in September. Atlanta gets low viz quite a bit, and with that comes massive delays for the World's Busiest Airport. It's a major pain in the ass, believe me. Kind of weird in the Summer when you get an EDC time at 0530! It sucks, but it's good for overblock! Additionally, once your 2-3 hours late due to WX, everything else gets backed up and slows. It's a tough environment, cuz ATL gets a lot of IROPS, even now in the slower season.

Trojan

You make me laugh. You must have never been through any NYC airport. Most any day clear or not the three metro airports (EWR, LGA, JFK) have delays. ATL is like taking candy from a baby. ASA has always struggled. I commuted from CHA for 2 years through ATL on the ASA ATR. 25 minute flight and we would sit waiting for a gate for 30 minutes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Commuted through ATL last month for the first time in months. Guess what we waited for a gate then swithced concourses and waited some more. Then waited for a jetway driver.

PS. The ontime problems at ASA have very little to do with ATL weather and everything to do with the ASA operation. Come to NYC if you want to see real delays. When you are given holding instructions 700 miles from your destination then you can complain.

 

[at7driver]

It's not ASA, it's daddy D.. they have been in control of the ramp/gates for awhile now.

 

[USCtrojan]

You make me laugh. You must have never been through any NYC airport. Most any day clear or not the three metro airports (EWR, LGA, JFK) have delays. ATL is like taking candy from a baby. ASA has always struggled. I commuted from CHA for 2 years through ATL on the ASA ATR. 25 minute flight and we would sit waiting for a gate for 30 minutes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Commuted through ATL last month for the first time in months. Guess what we waited for a gate then swithced concourses and waited some more. Then waited for a jetway driver.

PS. The ontime problems at ASA have very little to do with ATL weather and everything to do with the ASA operation. Come to NYC if you want to see real delays. When you are given holding instructions 700 miles from your destination then you can complain.

Okay, you win. NY definitely sucks way worse than ATL. ASA hasn't operated an ATR in close to a year. I don't know if you've been reading the news, things have dramatically changed and continue to do so in the last year. Your situation is the exception not the norm. Delta runs everything on the ramp. ASA is pilots, mechanics, FA's and Mgmt. The rest is Delta.

Trojan

 

[79%N1]

You make me laugh. You must have never been through any NYC airport. Most any day clear or not the three metro airports (EWR, LGA, JFK) have delays. ATL is like taking candy from a baby. ASA has always struggled. I commuted from CHA for 2 years through ATL on the ASA ATR. 25 minute flight and we would sit waiting for a gate for 30 minutes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Commuted through ATL last month for the first time in months. Guess what we waited for a gate then swithced concourses and waited some more. Then waited for a jetway driver.

PS. The ontime problems at ASA have very little to do with ATL weather and everything to do with the ASA operation. Come to NYC if you want to see real delays. When you are given holding instructions 700 miles from your destination then you can complain.

Uuum......Bull Sh!t.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I, myself have operated many flights to both JFK and LGA. Whilst they both have their issues, Delta's inabilty to have both gates available and ramp staff are the crux of any ASA delay and waits in ATL. Next in line is incessant ground delays generated by ATC. This has improved greatly since the 5th runway was implemented, but still persists. Stick to what you know.

 

[johnboy99]

Uuum......Bull Sh!t.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Stick to what you know.

OK then. Your ramp operations and ticket agents were taken away from ASA because of piss poor custmer service. I once saw an ASA ramper pick up a customers cell phone right after he dropped it on the ramp and put in in his pocket, with people watching. Since Delta has taken over the ramp sucks just not as bad. Blame whomever you want but at the end of the day the FAA statistics say ATLANTIC SOUTHEAST AIRLINES. Seperate from DELTA.

If you have been to JFK so much you will know Delta's operations are even worse than ATL. Not uncommon to see a line of RJ's six or seven deep waiting on a gate. Heck, you will see several mainline planes waiting for a gate on a closed runway. It is the way Delta likes to treat its customers.

All I am saying is it could be worse, ATL on its worst day is better than any place in NYC. Sorry if I struck a nerve

 

[Stifler's Mom]

My hub airport is worse than yours!!!!!!

 

[USCtrojan]

OK then. Your ramp operations and ticket agents were taken away from ASA because of piss poor custmer service. I once saw an ASA ramper pick up a customers cell phone right after he dropped it on the ramp and put in in his pocket, with people watching. Since Delta has taken over the ramp sucks just not as bad. Blame whomever you want but at the end of the day the FAA statistics say ATLANTIC SOUTHEAST AIRLINES. Seperate from DELTA.

If you have been to JFK so much you will know Delta's operations are even worse than ATL. Not uncommon to see a line of RJ's six or seven deep waiting on a gate. Heck, you will see several mainline planes waiting for a gate on a closed runway. It is the way Delta likes to treat its customers.

All I am saying is it could be worse, ATL on its worst day is better than any place in NYC. Sorry if I struck a nerve

They are being taken from SkyWest as well in SLC. It's the new "Delta." It has nothing to do with performance and everything to do with the "Bottom Line." All outstations are in the process of tranferring to "Regional Elite Services" or whatever the popular name is for it these days. They are absolutely HORRIBLE in performance. It's the new Northwest, err, I mean Delta.

Trojan

 

[79%N1]

OK then. Your ramp operations and ticket agents were taken away from ASA because of piss poor custmer service. I once saw an ASA ramper pick up a customers cell phone right after he dropped it on the ramp and put in in his pocket, with people watching. Since Delta has taken over the ramp sucks just not as bad. Blame whomever you want but at the end of the day the FAA statistics say ATLANTIC SOUTHEAST AIRLINES. Seperate from DELTA.

If you have been to JFK so much you will know Delta's operations are even worse than ATL. Not uncommon to see a line of RJ's six or seven deep waiting on a gate. Heck, you will see several mainline planes waiting for a gate on a closed runway. It is the way Delta likes to treat its customers.

All I am saying is it could be worse, ATL on its worst day is better than any place in NYC. Sorry if I struck a nerve

And again, wrong Mr Genius......

The ramp is as bad if not worse now under Delta than ASA! Any ramper anywhere can be a bad seed/thief. I recall some baaaad dudes in Philly in my USAIR days. I recall some arrests in New York, LA and Chicago. Hmm. Not solely an ASA thing.

JFK DOES NOT have nearly 1000 DCI flights per day like ATL. Apples and oranges, my friend. Like I said, I've been there many times and there was never 100 planes on the ground in JFK at once like there are in ATL at any given push.

Part of the reason Delta took the ASA ramp and Gate people was the raiding and slashing of our travel benefits. Big D knew that many (most) of those employees would quit - because they could make the same money bagging groceries or flipping burgers - and they knew it would shut ATL down. So, they took them over to Delta, which actually improved their travel bennies.

Any thing else, since you are slandering the people of ASA and you don't have a clue??

 

[CFI2766]

We really have to take some time to think about that one. We also need to be very careful what we ask or wish for. We just may get something with some serious unintended consequences. If this 12 hour rule comes down, we may have painted ourselves into a corner with ANY prohibition on this sort of stuff. There may guys out there that will take something like this and we should not put in things that would make them waive the contract to make more.

Personally, I feel a better rule from the FAA would simply involve limiting a scheduled day to no longer than 12 hours of duty and allow up 16 for IROPS, etc. If the 12 hour duty day comes down, we may be hosed no matter which way we look at it.

Respectfully, I would disagree with up to 16 hours for IROPS. That is basically what we have now. Facing facts here, I am forced to fly my schedule when I am fatigued. There is nothing in our FOM that prevents me from receiving an occurence when I call in fatigued; ergo, I will ultimately be disciplined if I call in genuinely fatigued in accordance with the FOM.

I don't quite understand your first paragraph. I believe that you are saying that it would be better to not have a prohibition on 5 day trips so that folks could work 5 days, or more, in a row if they chose to do so. Fair enough, but I strongly disagree that 5 day trips should be the norm, or, something forced on a pilot's schedule if they really don't want them.

 

[Jack-O-Lantern]

You make me laugh. You must have never been through any NYC airport. Most any day clear or not the three metro airports (EWR, LGA, JFK) have delays. ATL is like taking candy from a baby. ASA has always struggled. I commuted from CHA for 2 years through ATL on the ASA ATR. 25 minute flight and we would sit waiting for a gate for 30 minutes. The more things change the more they stay the same. Commuted through ATL last month for the first time in months. Guess what we waited for a gate then swithced concourses and waited some more. Then waited for a jetway driver.

PS. The ontime problems at ASA have very little to do with ATL weather and everything to do with the ASA operation. Come to NYC if you want to see real delays. When you are given holding instructions 700 miles from your destination then you can complain.

Wow man, you are completely clueless! LMAO

 

[JoeMerchant]

Respectfully, I would disagree with up to 16 hours for IROPS. That is basically what we have now. Facing facts here, I am forced to fly my schedule when I am fatigued. There is nothing in our FOM that prevents me from receiving an occurence when I call in fatigued; ergo, I will ultimately be disciplined if I call in genuinely fatigued in accordance with the FOM.

I don't quite understand your first paragraph. I believe that you are saying that it would be better to not have a prohibition on 5 day trips so that folks could work 5 days, or more, in a row if they chose to do so. Fair enough, but I strongly disagree that 5 day trips should be the norm, or, something forced on a pilot's schedule if they really don't want them.

If we are talking safety ONLY....Then we should do away with Naps and back side of the clock flying altogether...Have you ever jumpseated on UPS or Fedex? They are tired folks.

If we are talking safety ONLY....Then we should limit late duty ins to about 8 hours of duty.

If we are talking safety ONLY...Then we should limit the duty day to 8 hours...

If we are talking safety ONLY...Then we should mandate that commuters get to domicile the day before duty in and should mandate that they get a hotel room or a crash pad....Something tells me the "safety argument" is compromised by pilots who are too cheap to get a good night sleep before duty in, or want more time at home instead of getting adequate sleep.

There is a cost factor and a risk factor and a QOL factor to this equation.....Going too far on the "safety/risk" factor will affect QOL...Affecting QOL will then in turn affect "safety/risk" as people spend more time away from home....Something to think about.

We have a unique job and unique schedules...it comes with the job...If you want "bankers hours"...this isn't the job for you...

Keep in mind, the Colgan crew had very adequate rest....That wasn't the problem.

 

[Tarzan]

Respectfully, I would disagree with up to 16 hours for IROPS. That is basically what we have now. Facing facts here, I am forced to fly my schedule when I am fatigued. There is nothing in our FOM that prevents me from receiving an occurence when I call in fatigued; ergo, I will ultimately be disciplined if I call in genuinely fatigued in accordance with the FOM.

I don't quite understand your first paragraph. I believe that you are saying that it would be better to not have a prohibition on 5 day trips so that folks could work 5 days, or more, in a row if they chose to do so. Fair enough, but I strongly disagree that 5 day trips should be the norm, or, something forced on a pilot's schedule if they really don't want them.

I understand your reluctance although the guys in CPO seem to take most of that in stride. They will ask a series of questions about why your are fatigued. If you had kids running up and down your hallway all night at the hotel, you'll likely be sent home with pay. However, if you stayed up late watching the football game, you'll probably get nicked for it. My concern is how badly that will hurt any company whenever you get into an IROPS scenario. If are limited to 12 scheduled hours with eight hours behind the door, if there is no exception for IROPS, we'll be severely handicapped dealing with anything that doesn't allow for perfect operations. Either way, this will likely be FAA mandated and we'll all have to live with it.

My first paragraph while fuzzy was interpreted correctly. We should try to stay away from absolutes but if this thing with the 12 hour drop dead rule passes we may stuck with crappy lines necessitating longer trips to make money. That is what I want to be careful of.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I understand your reluctance although the guys in CPO seem to take most of that in stride. They will ask a series of questions about why your are fatigued. If you had kids running up and down your hallway all night at the hotel, you'll likely be sent home with pay. However, if you stayed up late watching the football game, you'll probably get nicked for it. My concern is how badly that will hurt any company whenever you get into an IROPS scenario. If are limited to 12 scheduled hours with eight hours behind the door, if there is no exception for IROPS, we'll be severely handicapped dealing with anything that doesn't allow for perfect operations. Either way, this will likely be FAA mandated and we'll all have to live with it.

My first paragraph while fuzzy was interpreted correctly. We should try to stay away from absolutes but if this thing with the 12 hour drop dead rule passes we may stuck with crappy lines necessitating longer trips to make money. That is what I want to be careful of.

Well said....A 12 hour drop dead time would result in 9-10 hour duty days and 12 days off for everyone.

 

[blesko]

If we are talking safety ONLY...Then we should mandate that commuters get to domicile the day before duty in and should mandate that they get a hotel room or a crash pad.....

Apparently you've never commuted. That's the most assinine comment I've ever heard. You're part of MY pilot group??? If you want to preach "safety" tell the airline to stop closing domiciles!!!! People have a wife and kids, which you might not, at some point, you dont want to move a wife and kids from their current job and school. You wanna be an advocate, talk to commuters before you run your damn mouth