Skybus Toast

[737 Pylt]

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Wonder why I'm laughing?

Its easy to laugh along with people that are laughing AT YOU!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'd no sooner believe you were at Delta then I would that tanker clown is a pilot!

737

 

[curtis46]

Dude.... Did we go to the same school???? Pretty much sounds like my college education as well... I bet we had way more fun then UND/ERU grads and we ended up in the same spot as them... Not bashing them..... But COMON guys..... ITS COLLEGE.. Did none of you see Animal House.. Graduate with a 3.0, drink as much cheap beer as you can, and chase *&SSY.... Best time of my life....

Best time of my life as well;party like there was no tomorrow,red the books once in a while,enough to graduate in accounting but totally obsolete.would need to go back to college and start almost from scratch.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

However, what is really the deal here?

Is GIA and Skybus counter to what we stand for as free market capitalist in a ultra competitive hyperconsumption market place?

You might know my postion on Wal Mart....

As pilots we shame pilots for "whoring" at GIA and Skybus. We chide passengers for paying $99 Transcon fares...

but isn't that what our economy is all about? Because as pilots, we will quick look for the cheapest product and serivces in other industries but demand economic buffers and excemptions for ourselves!

Look, I am playing devils advocate here... and also stating that we as pilots can be hypocrites.

Discuss?

To say most pilots are hypocritical is to try and treat this issue as black and white. There are degrees of unethical behavior. Becoming a scab is the worst degree. PFT when it is all but obsolete and at 30 grand to boot in order to avoid an interview is also far from ethical. By the way, working at GoJets is definitely as close to becoming a scab as one can get. Unless you grew up Amish, ignorance in this electronic age is fairly inexcusable. All it takes is a cellphone call or an internet search to research the popular view among the pilot community of carriers such as Skybus, Gojets, Mesa and Gulfstream. If I switched careers, it wouldn't be hard to figure out what's looked down upon in that profession.

 

[PCL_128]

Most newbie pilots don't know about flightinfo, Jetcareers, and other pilot sites on the internet. They do their research by visiting the many websites of the aviation schools and comparing them to each other. From the view of a consumer, that makes perfect sense. When they see that some schools offer a guaranteed job at the end of training, they view that to be a better "value." They aren't thinking of it in the same terms that you and I are, because they are new to the industry. You have to try to put your mind in the mindset of a complete newbie that knows nothing about this industry. From their perspective, your assertion that they should "know better" is absurd, even in this internet age.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To say most pilots are hypocritical is to try and treat this issue as black and white. There are degrees of unethical behavior.

But who decides what is ethical? the Moniker Messageboards?

Becoming a scab is the worst degree.

There is a solid, "black and white" line.

PFT when it is all but obsolete and at 30 grand to boot in order to avoid an interview is also far from ethical. By the way, working at GoJets is definitely as close to becoming a scab as one can get. Unless you grew up Amish, ignorance in this electronic age is fairly inexcusable.

But it is also the American Way!

All it takes is a cellphone call or an internet search to research the popular view among the pilot community of carriers such as Skybus, Gojets, Mesa and Gulfstream. If I switched careers, it wouldn't be hard to figure out what's looked down upon in that profession.

Yet, we are not talking about switching careers. We are talking about niave, excited young kids...

So really.... whats the solution? More moniker messageboard hatin?

If GIA is such a cancer then how do we stop it?


If anyone knows about this issue it is PCL. He's learned from his mistake and is willing to work the issue. Chiding him is wrong... he's a great way to educate the newbies. Lucky for you guys he is smart enough to stay issue orientated and not pack up his marbles because a few emotional GIA haters treat him poorly. That says more about them than him...

 

[Hamburger]

From their perspective, your assertion that they should "know better" is absurd, even in this internet age.

But they should damn sure know better than to get all self-righteous about the paychecks of guys that didn't pay for their training. Skybus lowered the bar, but your PFT gig hit everyone else in the face with the bar.

You have zero credibility.

Trying to pass yourself off as the authority on how pilots should behave is embarassing. You are just one step above the lowest of bottom feeders.

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, keep worrying about the tiny 1900 operator in Florida with 200 pilots, meanwhile real problems are actually threatening your profession. Glad your eye is on the ball.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But they should damn sure know better than to get all self-righteous about the paychecks of guys that didn't pay for their training. Skybus lowered the bar, but your PFT gig hit everyone else in the face with the bar.

You have zero credibility.

Trying to pass yourself off as the authority on how pilots should behave is embarassing. You are just one step above the lowest of bottom feeders.

Why you hatin'?

 

[Fly2Scuba]

But who decides what is ethical? the Moniker Messageboards?





There is a solid, "black and white" line.




But it is also the American Way!





Yet, we are not talking about switching careers. We are talking about niave, excited young kids...

So really.... whats the solution? More moniker messageboard hatin?

I think the general pilot community considers what's ethical and to what degree and clearly Skybus and Gulfstream are shamed more than average. Not just on the message boards, but hanger/crew room talk. To say it's the American way to further your way at any expense or at the expense of others is poor citizenship. I certainly wouldn't call Jonathon Orstein an all-American business man. There are plenty of respectable success stories of making it without trampling over others to such unethical degrees.

 

[PCL_128]

I think the general pilot community considers what's ethical and to what degree and clearly Skybus and Gulfstream are shamed more than average.

Most pilots don't even know who GIA is. When I tell Captains I fly with that I worked there, the typical response is "who's that?"

 

[Fly2Scuba]

Yes, keep worrying about the tiny 1900 operator in Florida with 200 pilots, meanwhile real problems are actually threatening your profession. Glad your eye is on the ball.

And perhaps one of the reasons they've stayed so small is because they realize the amount of shame attached to their operation makes it infeasible to grow any larger because the supply of pilots willing to work there is quite low. Did you ever consider that?

 

[PCL_128]

And perhaps one of the reasons they've stayed so small is because they realize the amount of shame attached to their operation makes it infeasible to grow any larger because the supply of pilots willing to work there is quite low. Did you ever consider that?

No, because it's not true. Cooper never wanted to expand outside of Florida and the Bahamas. Several code-share partners asked him repeatedly to serve destinations in some other southern states, but he turned them down over and over again. He just wanted a small airline and training center, nothing more.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think the general pilot community considers what's ethical and to what degree and clearly Skybus and Gulfstream are shamed more than average. Not just on the message boards, but hanger/crew room talk.

I never heard it in my crewrooms. In fact that would be counter productive to slam a fellow pilot for going to GIA then realize you had to fly with him/her. Or expect them to walk the line with you. Or not turn you in to management...

You can't shame a fellow pilot and exect them to share your values...

To say it's the American way to further your way at any expense or at the expense of others is poor citizenship.

C'mon.. we champion the law of the jungle. Whoever is better faster stronger cheaper is the one that rules. L'et not have two sets of rules here..

I certainly wouldn't call Jonathon Orstein an all-American business man.

From who's perspective. You (and I) don't like him for how he treats us... but the american consumer likes him. Wall Street likes him. The legacy execs like him...

There are plenty of respectable success stories of making it without trampling over others to such unethical degrees.

Agreed. but they might be the exception.

Look you are trying to apply ethical treatment to something only you value. Not the rest of our economy.

I asked you before... how do we stop the GIA factor?

 

[Fly2Scuba]

I never heard it in my crewrooms. In fact that would be counter productive to slam a fellow pilot for going to GIA then realize you had to fly with him/her.



C'mon.. we champion the law of the jungle. Whoever is better faster stronger cheaper is the one that rules. L'et not have two sets of rules here..




From who's perspective. You (and I) don't like him for how he treats us... but the american consumer likes him. Wall Street likes him. The legacy execs like him...




Agreed. but they might be the exception.

Look you are trying to apply ethical treatment to something only you value. Not the rest of our economy.

I asked you before... how do we stop the GIA factor?

I'd agree you can't completely stop it. But discouraging it in the future is in all our best interests. Even if Gulfstream remains small, it opens the door for another carrier to try such operation. I think you might feel differently if someone started up a 717 operation involving pay for training. Hopefully the Skybus situation discourages others from making similar moves in the future.

Respect if you discourage others from attending Gulfstream in the future.

 

[Andy]

Control the supply and you control the pay. Doctors and Lawyers figured this out decades ago.

Control supply? You mean like having a mandatory retirement age that correlates to diminishing physical and cognitive skills? Great idea.
Now, where do we draw that line? 55, the point at which accident rates show an increase? No, pilots can still fly several more years before their abilities decline to the point where the accident rate climbs substantially. 60 looks like a good number.

But wait. You FAVORED a change to age 65 since your father, (Edited to leave out Lear's family details - I'll let HIM tell everyone why he favored 65).

Yeah, that was a good idea that you had; control the supply. That horse already left the stable. And now you wish to have barriers to entry into the business?
Great. Whatever suits your individual situation.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'd agree you can't completely stop it. But discouraging it in the future is in all our best interests. Even if Gulfstream remains small, it opens the door for another carrier to try such operation. I think you might feel differently if someone started up a 717 operation involving pay for training. Hopefully the Skybus situation discourages others from making similar moves in the future.

Respect if you discourage others from attending Gulfstream in the future.

HOW! How do we discourage? On FI? Do we form an Association? Do we chide GIA Alumni?

What can we realistic control... and what are we really willing to do once we understand what we do control!

 

[Fly2Scuba]

I never heard it in my crewrooms. In fact that would be counter productive to slam a fellow pilot for going to GIA then realize you had to fly with him/her. Or expect them to walk the line with you. Or not turn you in to management...

I would agree with that. Good CRM should not be compromised by office politics in any form as it's even more unethical to create an unsafe flight environment. I have flown with a couple former Gulfstream people and I didn't and wouldn't create an uncomfortable environment. But I wouldn't buy em a beer at the bar either if they outright told me Gulfstream was an excellent career move for future pilots.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

HOW! How do we discourage? On FI? Do we form an Association? Do we chide GIA Alumni?

What can we realistic control... and what are we really willing to do once we understand what we do control!

Just like any other issue, any little bit helps.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I would agree with that. Good CRM should not be compromised by office politics in any form as it's even more unethical to create an unsafe flight environment. I have flown with a couple former Gulfstream people and I didn't and wouldn't create an uncomfortable environment. But I wouldn't buy em a beer at the bar either if they outright told me Gulfstream was an excellent career move for future pilots.

Even if she was hot!


Seriously... do you think they would be more open to your opinions on GIA and its damage to the biz if you bought him/her a beer? And if they were open to your ideas would they be more inclined to change?

 

[Lear70]

Control supply? You mean like having a mandatory retirement age that correlates to diminishing physical and cognitive skills? Great idea.
Now, where do we draw that line? 55, the point at which accident rates show an increase? No, pilots can still fly several more years before their abilities decline to the point where the accident rate climbs substantially. 60 looks like a good number.

But wait. You FAVORED a change to age 65 since your father, (Edited to leave out Lear's family details - I'll let HIM tell everyone why he favored 65).

Yeah, that was a good idea that you had; control the supply. That horse already left the stable. And now you wish to have barriers to entry into the business?
Great. Whatever suits your individual situation.

You should know better. Age 65 had VERY little to do with alleviating any supply issues, it was all about staving up their retirement because their pensions are gone.

Many are still leaving at 60, and the highest-wage earners aren't the problem.

The problem (as stated in the original thread with Skybus) is people who are willing to take ENTRY-LEVEL JOBS in something as large as an Airbus for wages 1/2 of what they should be.

Take away the supply, the bottom wages come up. When the bottom wages come up, the middle- and upper-tier wages will come up as well as a function of longevity.

I know you're mad about age 65, but your argument doesn't hold for controlling the supply when the pilots you are talking about are making the highest wage possible at an airline...

 

[Andy]

Many are still leaving at 60, and the highest-wage earners aren't the problem.

Once again, you have no idea what you're talking about. At United alone, the monthly retirement rate's gone from ~30/month to 2-3 month.
If you consider 2-3 'many,' fine. In the dictionary, 2-3 is best defined as 'few.' Even 'several' is an incorrect description.

Other than American, where retirements are tied to a lookback of AMR's stock price, you arent' going to find a lot of retirements. And retirements at AMR will also come to a standstill once the stock price stabilizes.

You are unable to grasp the simple concept that the lack of retirements is resulting in many on the bottom end taking any job that they can find.

As the furloughs pick up steam, a lot of those furloughees are going to end up finding a job anywhere. It won't matter that the companies are paying less than Skybus wages.
So, instead of retirements at age 60, we're going to see the bottom of the losing their jobs and going to work anywhere that they can find a job. What will be the effect industrywide? More wage cuts.

Your inability to apply the laws of supply and demand to this business never ceases to amaze me. Now, care to share your dad's story? Guys like him are a BIG part of the problem. The difference between his behavior and the guy on the bottom of the list going to work at Skybus is, well, he wasn't at the bottom of the list.

 

[flygirlqt]

But they should damn sure know better than to get all self-righteous about the paychecks of guys that didn't pay for their training. Skybus lowered the bar, but your PFT gig hit everyone else in the face with the bar.

You have zero credibility.

Trying to pass yourself off as the authority on how pilots should behave is embarassing. You are just one step above the lowest of bottom feeders.

This post is what it all comes down to about the PCL/Gulfstream debate.

 

[Pocono Pilot]

Would you like to compare their pay now?

That's not a good comparison because Skybus pilots are all furloughed now.....but then again, CAL pilots will soon be furloughed too within the next few months, so I guess it might be a good comparison in a few weeks.

Congrats on being the only female ever turned down by Continental airlines. Now that really says something. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Um, no. I actually turned them down after I got the phone call because I didn't want to work for a place that offered no health benefits and 29 dollars an hour. LOL

You didn't seem to mind working for that though. hehehe. I think CAL pilots that bash Skybus pilots are pretty funny. LOL

 

[Fly2Scuba]

no health benefits and 29 dollars an hour.

Understandable. Psychiatric care is not cheap.

 

[flygirlqt]

That's not a good comparison because Skybus pilots are all furloughed now.....but then again, CAL pilots will soon be furloughed too within the next few months, so I guess it might be a good comparison in a few weeks.

XJET will be seeing a lot more pain than CAL in the coming months that is a given. Everyone is in big trouble including you Ms. Tool. The silver lining is that if we furlough, our pilots will have an airline to come back to. What do you have to look forward to? Reinterviewing at carriers that rejected you?

LMAO REJECTED

Um, no. I actually turned them down after I got the phone call because I didn't want to work for a place that offered no health benefits and 29 dollars an hour. LOL

Um no I think you are a liar. If you actually didn't want to work for the stated conditions, you wouldn't have applied in the first place.

LMAO REJECTED

You didn't seem to mind working for that though. hehehe. I think CAL pilots that bash Skybus pilots are pretty funny. LOL

I think pilots that can't get hired anywhere, especially as a female, is pretty funny. :laugh:

LMAO REJECTED

 

[flygirlqt]

Understandable. Psychiatric care is not cheap.

Classic......

Let's not forget about her preexisting medical condition of chronic pelvic inflammatory disease.

No wonder she is so bitter. I always thought it was a burning bitterness about being rejected. It is actually a burning of another type driving her anger.

 

[737 Pylt]

This post is what it all comes down to about the PCL/Gulfstream debate.

Not really.....

But they should damn sure know better than to get all self-righteous about the paychecks of guys that didn't pay for their training. Skybus lowered the bar, but your PFT gig hit everyone else in the face with the bar.

You have zero credibility.

But wait...Isn't Southwest PFT also?? Does that mean they lowered the bar.....
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. CMR,ASA,ACA,CAL Express (I'm sure there are many more) were all PFT. Shouldn't you people be crucifing them as well??

737

 

[flygirlqt]

Not really.....

[/I]

But wait...Isn't Southwest PFT also?? Does that mean they lowered the bar.....
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. CMR,ASA,ACA,CAL Express (I'm sure there are many more) were all PFT. Shouldn't you people be crucifing them as well??

737

I do not consider SWA a pft operation. But more importantly, you don't see pilots from those other carriers exhibiting such arrogance and attitude about others like PCL.

 

[737 Pylt]

I do not consider SWA a pft operation.

That's fine....That could (and has) been debated ad nauseum here.

But more importantly, you don't see pilots from those other carriers exhibiting such arrogance and attitude about others like PCL.

Actually you do. Besides pocono dufus is a CAL express PFT sucker!
I wasn't picking on you, I was just trying to make a statement.
Now lets get back to pocono pilot bashing!

737

 

[flygirlqt]

T

Actually you do. Besides pocono dufus is a CAL express PFT sucker!
I wasn't picking on you, I was just trying to make a statement.
Now lets get back to pocono pilot bashing!

737

I knew you weren't picking on me! Besides, Pocohole pays for everything including companionship.

Good thing for her the TSA doesn't search crew bags for long cylindrical battery operated plastic devices.