Seniority list at the new AA?

[Jim]

Come east baby, the first round is on us. Promise! :lol:

Like anyone would ever again believe a promise from the no integrity East.....

 

[scoreboardII]

This appears to be off to an epic fail... APA claiming they bring more to the table than Usair? Interesting...

 

[WSurf]

This appears to be off to an epic fail... APA claiming they bring more to the table than Usair? Interesting...

Wait.... Didn't the East tell the West that??? This is gonna be fun!!

 

[Flybywire44]

How about abiding by an actual award from an agreed upon arbitrator???? You will NEVER learn, and your beer pong example is childish. People have been affected by your group's lack of integrity.... Not everyone is laughing, and your group probably won't be coming up here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, you still sound like a broken record.

It seems that the West's 11th hour of opportunity for legal action is closing and thus why they are seeking justice well before a DFR is ripe.

 

[TWA Dude]

APA claiming they bring more to the table than Usair?

They do. The USAiways pilots (all of them) have more to gain from the merger than the AA pilots. I'm talking purely about pay and widebodies. Of course, the Easties get a bigger pay raise than the West but that was gonna happen eventually anyway.

 

[TWA Dude]

It seems that the West's 11th hour of opportunity for legal action is closing and thus why they are seeking justice well before a DFR is ripe.

Nothing 11th hour about it. We're always seeking justice but when to file is based on the vagaries of the legal system.

 

[General Lee]

General, you still sound like a broken record.

It seems that the West's 11th hour of opportunity for legal action is closing and thus why they are seeking justice well before a DFR is ripe.

No, the West had to wait until the case was "ripe", and moving ahead with the next SLI will show that. Parker and the others want this merger to go smoother and actually integrate instead of remain separate, and that will add to the pressure to get it done. We all know this will go to arbitration again with the APA, so do you think the next panel of arbitrators won't include the NIC? They probably know him personally.

And being a broken record while being correct is fine with me. The new SLI will be over soon.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flybywire44]

Nothing 11th hour about it. We're always seeking justice but when to file is based on the vagaries of the legal system.

I am sorry, but the window of opportunity to get an injunction on which East lists are used for SLI arbitration is finite.

They do. The USAiways pilots (all of them) have more to gain from the merger than the AA pilots. I'm talking purely about pay and widebodies. Of course, the Easties get a bigger pay raise than the West but that was gonna happen eventually anyway.

Neither APA or USAPA bring anything to the table, but both work for companies that together will enhance the other and also enhance the working conditions of both pilot groups. Take for example how the US Airways network will allow American to finally arrest their ever falling ARSM and stop the airlines shrinkage. You must take into account how US Airways traffic will trigger a boom of wide body growth made possible by legacy LCC feed.

No, the West had to wait until the case was "ripe", and moving ahead with the next SLI will show that. Parker and the others want this merger to go smoother and actually integrate instead of remain separate, and that will add to the pressure to get it done. We all know this will go to arbitration again with the APA, so do you think the next panel of arbitrators won't include the NIC? They probably know him personally.

And being a broken record while being correct is fine with me. The new SLI will be over soon.

Bye Bye---General Lee

The West may not be "damaged" until a SLI award and/or JCBA is issued. Furthermore, APA/USAPA may find a "legitimate union purpose" in not severely damaging the careers of soon to be retired American pilots by avoiding a West pilot windfall.

What about being a broken record for getting off subject?

17,105

???
So your collective bargaining agent signs on the dotted line that it will comply and comport with Final & Binding arbitration (as it has done in the past).

You are saying that if YOU perceive it's not fair, it's OK to delay & evade the Final & Binding arbitration until you can get a do over??? Were you crossing your fingers??

How exactly does that give you INTEGRITY?

Unbelievable.

Cactusboy53, Contract Law is not necessarily Final and Binding.

It is possible that the person you're speaking to disagreed at the time with what happened and was outvoted by his peers. You should not judge someone by the group they belong to that is collectivism.

Remember, racism is collectivism based on skin color. How is collectivism based on place of work any different? It is still hatred and may as well be racism.

Do not collectively judge people.

 

[abefly]

I am sorry, but the window of opportunity to get an injunction on which East lists are used for SLI arbitration is finite.

The West may not be "damaged" until a SLI award and/or JCBA is issued. Furthermore, APA/USAPA may find a "legitimate union purpose" in not severely damaging the careers of soon to be retired American pilots by avoiding a West pilot windfall.

The US Airways T/A will be complete. The only seniority list US Airways ever accepted was the NIC. The single contract we will all be under will trigger it on the POR Date. The case wil be ripe in a couple moths should US Airways chose not to comlete the merger. They will be "on dangerous grounds" just as USAPA will be. APA will not be involved until the next SLI. If they collude in any way to avoid the nic they will be part of the suit as well.

The nic is here to stay. Always has been always will.

My concern is the East idiots and ther D.O.H. constitution. Do we really want to go into an SLI with American screaming DOH DOH DOH. Look how well that worked for the East in the last SLI.

We need to get the USAPA BPR idiots changed and get a real merger attorney to represent us. Perhaps the West should take this one on.

 

[DCAA320]

They do. The USAiways pilots (all of them) have more to gain from the merger than the AA pilots. I'm talking purely about pay and widebodies. Of course, the Easties get a bigger pay raise than the West but that was gonna happen eventually anyway.

That's not entirely true, with respect to the bigger pay raise.

 

[TWA Dude]

I am sorry, but the window of opportunity to get an injunction on which East lists are used for SLI arbitration is finite.

No, you're not sorry, and in any case the hope is to never need an injunction. USAPA isn't the only player in this game and we've yet to hear from the other parties. (After all, the recent volley of letters wasn't aimed at USAPA.)

Neither APA or USAPA bring anything to the table, but both work for companies that together will enhance the other and also enhance the working conditions of both pilot groups. Take for example how the US Airways network will allow American to finally arrest their ever falling ARSM and stop the airlines shrinkage. You must take into account how US Airways traffic will trigger a boom of wide body growth made possible by legacy LCC feed.

Um, okay. I'm sure the arbitration panel will see it completely your way. Not.

Ya know, maybe a three-way really is the way to go. With such sure-fire arguments as yours the arbitration panel will probably think Nicolau was too hard on the West.

 

[General Lee]

I am sorry, but the window of opportunity to get an injunction on which East lists are used for SLI arbitration is finite.



Neither APA or USAPA bring anything to the table, but both work for companies that together will enhance the other and also enhance the working conditions of both pilot groups. Take for example how the US Airways network will allow American to finally arrest their ever falling ARSM and stop the airlines shrinkage. You must take into account how US Airways traffic will trigger a boom of wide body growth made possible by legacy LCC feed.


The West may not be "damaged" until a SLI award and/or JCBA is issued. Furthermore, APA/USAPA may find a "legitimate union purpose" in not severely damaging the careers of soon to be retired American pilots by avoiding a West pilot windfall.

What about being a broken record for getting off subject?

17,105



Cactusboy53, Contract Law is not necessarily Final and Binding.

It is possible that the person you're speaking to disagreed at the time with what happened and was outvoted by his peers. You should not judge someone by the group they belong to that is collectivism.

Remember, racism is collectivism based on skin color. How is collectivism based on place of work any different? It is still hatred and may as well be racism.

Do not collectively judge people.

You are smoking serious dope. People who can't debate me on FI point to my post count. You are now included. The NIC will prevail because all sides, including management, agreed to it and the arbitrator. Too bad.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[scoreboardII]

The shot across the bow is delegating Usair to RJ growth and AA to mainline growth, that's the start of an epic fail which I mentioned earlier. Then have the gall to say the SLI won't be done for years and will be favorable to AA, ie, the bankrupt pilots.

 

[The Drizzle]

my concern is the east idiots and ther d.o.h. Constitution. Do we really want to go into an sli with american screaming doh doh doh. Look how well that worked for the east in the last sli.

We need to get the usapa bpr idiots changed and get a real merger attorney to represent us. Perhaps the west should take this one on.

^^^^^this^^^^^

 

[Flybywire44]

You are smoking serious dope. People who can't debate me on FI point to my post count. You are now included. The NIC will prevail because all sides, including management, agreed to it and the arbitrator. Too bad.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Your post count is so impressive that no one can resist it's allure!

Besides, you never actually respond to my posts anyway.

imp: <-- Your brain on flight info.

 

[General Lee]

Your post count is so impressive that no one can resist it's allure!

Besides, you never actually respond to my posts anyway.

imp: <-- Your brain on flight info.

Your diatribe was exhausting. You are overlooking the big picture, you and your group agreed to something that was binding, and the company did too. Stop right there. Now, you shortly will do the SAME thing with the APA. Before you do, you will have to revert back to the award, or everyone who participates with you will be sued, and they probably don't want that. The latest judge also said your new union is treading on "dangerous ground" (her words). So, you can try to justify it all you want, but you shouldn't have agreed to it if you weren't going to abide by it. Sad but true.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flybywire44]

Your diatribe was exhausting. You are overlooking the big picture, you and your group agreed to something that was binding, and the company did too. Stop right there. Now, you shortly will do the SAME thing with the APA. Before you do, you will have to revert back to the award, or everyone who participates with you will be sued, and they probably don't want that. The latest judge also said your new union is treading on "dangerous ground" (her words). So, you can try to justify it all you want, but you shouldn't have agreed to it if you weren't going to abide by it. Sad but true.



Bye Bye---General Lee

General, Nicolai has nothing to do with me—I'm an outsider looking in.

Feel free to respond my points when you catch you're no longer exhausted.

 

[General Lee]

General, Nicolai has nothing to do with me—I'm an outsider looking in.

Feel free to respond my points when you catch you're no longer exhausted.

Whew! Caught my breath.... Here is your problem in your long statement:

"The West may not be "damaged" until a SLI award and/or JCBA is issued. Furthermore, APA/USAPA may find a "legitimate union purpose" in not severely damaging the careers of soon to be retired American pilots by avoiding a West pilot windfall."


The APA wants no part of a lawsuit, they want US to solve the problem. The creditors also want no problems, and rumor has it that the creditor committee lawyer has pushed for USAPA to possibly give in as a condition of approval for the merger. Sounds like everyone other than the Easties want this over, and they are acting like spoiled brats who crossed their other fingers while giving a handshake, or in this case signed on the bottom line, along with management, who also doesn't want to be potentially sued. Since you too are on the outside looking in, you should express your own disappointment toward these Easties, who will forever change the way our industry does binding arbitration. You just can't trust anyone it seems, even after signing on the bottom line. What a shame.

What is your opinion about not abiding by a binding agreement signed beforehand by all parties?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Flybywire44]

Whew! Caught my breath.... Here is your problem in your long statement:

"The West may not be "damaged" until a SLI award and/or JCBA is issued. Furthermore, APA/USAPA may find a "legitimate union purpose" in not severely damaging the careers of soon to be retired American pilots by avoiding a West pilot windfall."


The APA wants no part of a lawsuit, they want US to solve the problem. The creditors also want no problems, and rumor has it that the creditor committee lawyer has pushed for USAPA to possibly give in as a condition of approval for the merger. Sounds like everyone other than the Easties want this over, and they are acting like spoiled brats who crossed their other fingers while giving a handshake, or in this case signed on the bottom line, along with management, who also doesn't want to be potentially sued. Since you too are on the outside looking in, you should express your own disappointment toward these Easties, who will forever change the way our industry does binding arbitration. You just can't trust anyone it seems, even after signing on the bottom line. What a shame.

What is your opinion about not abiding by a binding agreement signed beforehand by all parties?


Bye Bye---General Lee

How can you claim to know half of the information in your post as fact?


I sympathize with East pilots because they are so old and susceptible. While West pilots have time on there sides, East pilots don't have time to makeup the damages they may otherwise receive. In a worst case scenario, West pilots will benefit from never before seen seniority movement.

I hear a lot of people cry foul about binding arbitration, but this issue is not a matter of integrity. Both East and West pilot representatives were devoid of integrity and the process evolved into something beyond good will—both pilot representatives were nasty, hypocritical and let their respective groups down.

Contract law is obviously not as binding as everyone once thought.

 

[General Lee]

How can you claim to know half of the information in your post as fact?


I sympathize with East pilots because they are so old and susceptible. While West pilots have time on there sides, East pilots don't have time to makeup the damages they may otherwise receive. In a worst case scenario, West pilots will benefit from never before seen seniority movement.

I hear a lot of people cry foul about binding arbitration, but this issue is not a matter of integrity. Both East and West pilot representatives were devoid of integrity and the process evolved into something beyond good will—both pilot representatives were nasty, hypocritical and let their respective groups down.

Contract law is obviously not as binding as everyone once thought.

Oh, but contract law will come through in the end, it's obviously not over yet, and judges (plural) have told the Westies that their time will be coming. (When ripe). So, let me get this straight, you think the Easties should prevail because they are an older group overall? What? You sympathize with them. Ok, that's your opinion, but was that issue brought up to the neutral? It obviously was, and he didn't appear to care. He gave the top 500 slots to all Easties. He also supposedly (I wasn't there) told the East pilots that their dreams of DOH weren't going to work, so to please keep negotiating (he gave them a big hint), and they still stuck with DOH. So, it looks like one group wouldn't play nice, and that is the problem here. Regardless of age, you have try to MERGE in a merger. You sign up for binding arbitration, you do it. Btw, their attitude towards this has cost the Eastie Captains about $4K a month, for the last 4 years, which also affects their retirement. Strong conviction, that will probably lose in the end anyway.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[thruthemurk]

The shot across the bow is delegating Usair to RJ growth and AA to mainline growth, that's the start of an epic fail which I mentioned earlier. Then have the gall to say the SLI won't be done for years and will be favorable to AA, ie, the bankrupt pilots.

Interesting. Who were the bankrupt pilots in East/West? The view of the East shifts always with the self serving breeze.

 

[Dornier 335]

From USAPA:

Last month the pilots of US Airways voted overwhelmingly to ratify the Memorandum of Understanding for a merger with American Airlines. This historic decision will lead to better wages, benefits, and working conditions for us all. While a final JCBA will be negotiated with the New American Airlines that can bring even more improvements, the MOU itself provides $1.6 billion in economic improvements for you over the next six years.

The vote on the MOU was impressive. Some 95% of US Airways pilots turned out, with 76% voting in favor of it. Every domicile overwhelmingly supported the MOU, including Phoenix where 98% of Phoenix-based pilots voted in favor of it. Despite this overwhelming support for the MOU, a few represented by Leonidas LLC are threatening the American Airlines/US Airways merger that was endorsed so strongly by the Phoenix-based pilots.

Eleven days after the MOU was ratified by the pilots of US Airways and five days after the boards of American Airlines and US Airways unanimously approved and announced the merger, the attorney for Leonidas LLC threatened “to file a third round of litigation and seek an injunction of the merger process until we can get a court order directing that the only [seniority] list that can be used is the Nicolau.” The next day, the same attorney wrote a second letter, stating that Leonidas LLC “anticipates litigation and hereby requests that the US Airline Pilots Association... place a litigation hold on certain materials that will be discoverable in such litigation.” Similar letters were sent to APA and US Airways.

Unfortunately these are not idle threats. In the past five years, Leonidas LLC has spent a significant amount of time and money suing USAPA, only to have their cases dismissed.

While Leonidas LLC claims to represent all West pilots; I do not think that is the case. Why? Because 98% of Phoenix-based pilots voted in favor of the MOU and the process outlined for JCBA negotiations and seniority integration. Just 11 days after their near unanimous vote, the attorney for Leonidas LLC threatened to derail the deal. No other domicile showed greater support for the MOU. In fact, only 24 out of 1041 PHX pilots voting said no to the MOU.

We cannot stand idly by while a handful of individuals seek to derail an MOU that US Airways pilots overwhelmingly support. That’s why your BPR today approved the filing of a lawsuit in the American Airlines bankruptcy court to prevent Leonidas LLC from interfering with the bankruptcy. This is not an action against the Phoenix-based pilots, nor is it a course of action that anyone desires. Rather, we have been forced to file this action to protect the rights of all pilots – West and East – who overwhelmingly voted in favor of the MOU and the process to move us all collectively forward.

Despite our filing in the bankruptcy court today, we will continue to represent all pilots – East and West alike. Pilots from all domiciles are on our BPR and important committees such as NAC and Grievance. They continue to find common ground and have learned how to work together in a process that benefits us all.

On my first day in office, I appointed a West pilot, Ken Stravers, to the Merger Committee, based on the recommendation of Phoenix-based pilots. Unfortunately, before the BPR could approve Ken’s appointment, the same West pilots changed their mind and withdrew their recommendation. Despite this, I am still committed to appointing Phoenix-based pilots to important committees. We are stronger when we work together.

It’s no secret that the Company has exploited our divisions for far too long. Over the past 10 months we were able to turn down the volume, unite the parts into the whole, and work as one union toward our mutual goal of industry standard wages, benefits and working conditions. That is my pledge to you. Despite the noise being generated by a few, USAPA will continue to represent all pilots and ensure that this union moves in a direction that benefits us all.

 

[doh]

Wow, who would have thought that forcing the unscrupulous east to keep their word is "threatening" the merger? So, unless the east is allowed to be dishonest, the merger can't take place...just wow...

 

[TWA Dude]

What an idiot. Leonidas recommended voting for the MOU.
That's why 98% of PHX did.

 

[gutshotdraw]

The filings by Leonidas are strictly boilerplate legal actions to maintain the standing of the West pilots in the dispute so that they can sue all the parties involved if Nicolau is abrogated in the SLI and the case becomes ripe. Nothing more.

There is NO WAY APA will even consider East's DOH proposal and expose themselves to HUGE legal liability. This WILL go to arbitration and I hope it is an accelerated process so that we can FINALLY see who was right and who was East...er, I mean wrong.

 

[General Lee]

From USAPA:

Last month the pilots of US Airways voted overwhelmingly to ratify the Memorandum of Understanding for a merger with American Airlines. This historic decision will lead to better wages, benefits, and working conditions for us all. While a final JCBA will be negotiated with the New American Airlines that can bring even more improvements, the MOU itself provides $1.6 billion in economic improvements for you over the next six years.

The vote on the MOU was impressive. Some 95% of US Airways pilots turned out, with 76% voting in favor of it. Every domicile overwhelmingly supported the MOU, including Phoenix where 98% of Phoenix-based pilots voted in favor of it. Despite this overwhelming support for the MOU, a few represented by Leonidas LLC are threatening the American Airlines/US Airways merger that was endorsed so strongly by the Phoenix-based pilots.

Eleven days after the MOU was ratified by the pilots of US Airways and five days after the boards of American Airlines and US Airways unanimously approved and announced the merger, the attorney for Leonidas LLC threatened “to file a third round of litigation and seek an injunction of the merger process until we can get a court order directing that the only [seniority] list that can be used is the Nicolau.” The next day, the same attorney wrote a second letter, stating that Leonidas LLC “anticipates litigation and hereby requests that the US Airline Pilots Association... place a litigation hold on certain materials that will be discoverable in such litigation.” Similar letters were sent to APA and US Airways.

Unfortunately these are not idle threats. In the past five years, Leonidas LLC has spent a significant amount of time and money suing USAPA, only to have their cases dismissed.

While Leonidas LLC claims to represent all West pilots; I do not think that is the case. Why? Because 98% of Phoenix-based pilots voted in favor of the MOU and the process outlined for JCBA negotiations and seniority integration. Just 11 days after their near unanimous vote, the attorney for Leonidas LLC threatened to derail the deal. No other domicile showed greater support for the MOU. In fact, only 24 out of 1041 PHX pilots voting said no to the MOU.

We cannot stand idly by while a handful of individuals seek to derail an MOU that US Airways pilots overwhelmingly support. That’s why your BPR today approved the filing of a lawsuit in the American Airlines bankruptcy court to prevent Leonidas LLC from interfering with the bankruptcy. This is not an action against the Phoenix-based pilots, nor is it a course of action that anyone desires. Rather, we have been forced to file this action to protect the rights of all pilots – West and East – who overwhelmingly voted in favor of the MOU and the process to move us all collectively forward.

Despite our filing in the bankruptcy court today, we will continue to represent all pilots – East and West alike. Pilots from all domiciles are on our BPR and important committees such as NAC and Grievance. They continue to find common ground and have learned how to work together in a process that benefits us all.

On my first day in office, I appointed a West pilot, Ken Stravers, to the Merger Committee, based on the recommendation of Phoenix-based pilots. Unfortunately, before the BPR could approve Ken’s appointment, the same West pilots changed their mind and withdrew their recommendation. Despite this, I am still committed to appointing Phoenix-based pilots to important committees. We are stronger when we work together.

It’s no secret that the Company has exploited our divisions for far too long. Over the past 10 months we were able to turn down the volume, unite the parts into the whole, and work as one union toward our mutual goal of industry standard wages, benefits and working conditions. That is my pledge to you. Despite the noise being generated by a few, USAPA will continue to represent all pilots and ensure that this union moves in a direction that benefits us all.

Funny stuff. It might be true 98% of the Westies voted for the MOU, because they WANT the merger with AA, to eventually dump USAPA. Staying status quo hasn't helped the Westies at all. A merge will FORCE the NIC to be awarded finally. The stooge writing that forgot to mention it..... I don't think the 98% would vote for anything allowing the NIC to be discarded. Nah.....


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Bringupthebird]

Gee Gary, accept the Nicolau (since you've stolen the rightful seniority of the majority of the west pilots by this time anyhow) and see how that greases your beloved merger.

 

[Crzipilot]

I forget, wasn't that arbitration an internal "union" process, which even though is was supposedly binding, even the president of such esteemed organization tried to get the parties to negotiate away from such?

I would think that an internal process is different from a federal mandated one, say like with a brokerage house or something.......... So yes if US had stayed alpa, it would be binding.....but Poof, alpa was gone (even though the west said it would never happen, east didn't have the votes) Sorta like BK laws and being able to abrograte contracts almost at will.......

I see, you think it's ok for corporations to stretch contract law, but not individuals?

I could be wrong,,,,,,

 

[Flybywire44]

Just imagine... This subject will be dead 24 months from now. :0

 

[doh]

I forget, wasn't that arbitration an internal "union" process, which even though is was supposedly binding, even the president of such esteemed organization tried to get the parties to negotiate away from such?

I would think that an internal process is different from a federal mandated one, say like with a brokerage house or something.......... So yes if US had stayed alpa, it would be binding.....but Poof, alpa was gone (even though the west said it would never happen, east didn't have the votes) Sorta like BK laws and being able to abrograte contracts almost at will.......

I see, you think it's ok for corporations to stretch contract law, but not individuals?

I could be wrong,,,,,,

Not just no, but HELL NO!!!! It is not ok for corporations to stretch contract law!! Are you stupid??? And it is not ok for a union either. The RLA says that agreements are inherited. Thus, management may not change the corporate name and abrogate a contract or renege on shareholder obligations. Neither can a union. And it is high time the courts biotch slap the scumbags who are trying to do just that.