Seniority list at the new AA?

[Deadalus]

I was told by a west pilot recently that USAPA has DOH in their constitution and they think they can get it from the APA without going to arbitration, because they know darn well an arbitrator won't let them steal seniority or redo an already arbitrated list. Their argument goes something like this, "hey American pilots, let us have DOH, because we're all going to retire in five years anyways. Yeah we know ignoring the NIC will make you and the company liable, but you don't want all those Mesa pilots above you." I wanted to laugh, but I know it is a serious matter for pilots that have to deal with those idiots.
It's nice to see the level of intelligence and integrity that are shown here by both Delta and American pilots, maybe there is hope for the profession. As for the majority of east US pilots, those sleazy dumbA$$es are the reason I quite aviation. I deal with plenty of sleazy corporate lawyers and the average east pilot puts them all to shame.

 

[The Drizzle]

I am an AA pilot and frankly I have no idea how the Nic will affect us, only that in ANY scenario, the bottom half of our list will definitely take a hit. And I'm ready for that, just the nature of the beast in any merger between two large airlines.

DOH = DOA. Sorry, not gonna happen, much to Usapa's dismay. This would be way too skewed to Usapa's favor. I'm thinking it will be either the Nic with AA pilots slotted in via relative seniority, or a complete redo of all 3 lists using relative seniority.

Our union leaders and arbitrators need to enroll at Delta University for a lesson on one of the most successful, non-confrontational seniority integrations ever.

Purely opinion, but I think the east is going to actively harm themselves in any outcome of arbitration due to the required hardline stance of DOH in the USAPA constitution. Coming with and holding to the untenable position of DOH is going to be destructive to east pilots in this integration as it was in their last.

The party that comes with a moderate and reasonable offer will be in the position to guide the end result. Pounding one's fist on the table while chanting DOH DOH DOH will only yield another Nic-like result -or- for a post McCaskill-Bond example, F9-RAH.

Being a hardliner in this case is a weakness not a strength, but I'm mega-junior so i'm going at the bottom of the pile no matter what.

 

[aa73]

Being a hardliner in this case is a weakness not a strength, but I'm mega-junior so i'm going at the bottom of the pile no matter what.

Ditto...

 

[LaGarbage Man]

Ditto...

Double Dog Ditto... What's up my ACA brother ?

 

[dollacrackho]

Why dont they just use a lottery system 2/3 of the people are gonna be miserable anyways, might as well make it interesting. They could throw a big vegas party and you get wasted as a ping pong ball determines your future.

 

[Turtle21]

17,088

CRJ puppy's message is hidden because it's just not worth reading.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

17,088

Here's an extra one for you. It will be a FANTASTIC day when you lose. Popcorn is ready.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[OARfan]

I'm just hoping everyone's bickering doesn't derail this merger. The pay raise would be nice.

 

[Turtle21]

17,090 :laugh:

 

[LearLove]

Why dont they just use a lottery system 2/3 of the people are gonna be miserable anyways, might as well make it interesting. They could throw a big vegas party and you get wasted as a ping pong ball determines your future.

Hold the mother of all beer pong tournaments. Winner gets seniority number 1 and lowest ranked gets seniority number last.

 

[General Lee]

Hold the mother of all beer pong tournaments. Winner gets seniority number 1 and lowest ranked gets seniority number last.

How about abiding by an actual award from an agreed upon arbitrator???? You will NEVER learn, and your beer pong example is childish. People have been affected by your group's lack of integrity.... Not everyone is laughing, and your group probably won't be coming up here.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[aa73]

Double Dog Ditto... What's up my ACA brother ?

Sitting here reminiscing about the IAD crew room, Bravo gates, and screaming loud Garretts! How bout you?

 

[LaGarbage Man]

Sitting here reminiscing about the IAD crew room, Bravo gates, and screaming loud Garretts! How bout you?

Just the usual up, down, left, right, flare (crunch ) and flare again thing. Also being a good airline pilot and planning out how to spend money I don't actually have.The good news is after 14 years I finally got my ears to stop bleeding from the roar of the mighty Jetstream ;-)

 

[Guppiedriver]

aa73 was right, DOH is DOA:

Allied Pilots Association president Keith Wilson advised pilots Wednesday not to get too worked up yet about the issue of combining the seniority lists of US Airways and American Airlines after the proposed merger.
The reason: It’ll probably be a long time before the two sides get to that point.
“First off, take a deep breath, because the process of accomplishing the merger, achieving a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), and achieving an integrated seniority list will be a long one,” Wilson told them in a hotline message. “We are probably at least 24 to 30 months away from resolving the issue of a combined seniority list.”
APA represents American Airlines pilots. The US Airline Pilots Association represents US Airways pilots.
Keep reading for Wilson’s discussion of the process and the history of seniority list integrations.
Seniority integration
I know that many of you are concerned about both the near- and long-term impact of a merger on your seniority and future career prospects. You are right to take this issue seriously. Seniority is the lifeblood of our profession, and that number on your HI-1 dictates everything from compensation to quality of life.
Rest assured that this is not something that your APA leadership took lightly when pursuing a merger with US Airways. With that in mind, I would like to make clear to you that despite what you may have heard on the line or read on C&R, this transaction provides an opportunity to make our profession here at American much more secure than the independent plan previously espoused by the current AA management team.
First off, take a deep breath, because the process of accomplishing the merger, achieving a joint collective bargaining agreement (JCBA), and achieving an integrated seniority list will be a long one. We are probably at least 24 to 30 months away from resolving the issue of a combined seniority list. Until that date, the memorandum of understanding (MOU) provides initial flying protections until fence provisions are established as part of the seniority list integration process. These MOU provisions include the following language:
– All existing AA aircraft, including orders and options, will be flown by current APA pilots.
– All existing US Airways aircraft, including orders and options, will be flown by — current USAPA pilots.
– US Airways pilots will fly the first thirty E-190 aircraft and starting with the 31st E-190 delivery, APA will receive two E-190 aircraft for every additional E-190 above thirty flown by US Airways pilots.
– BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle operations will be flown by current USAPA pilots, along with existing PHX-Hawaii flying.
– All trans-Pacific (Asia) flying will be performed by current APA pilots.
– Minimum block hour floors are established at both airlines to prevent the new company from drawing down either operation at the expense of the other.
– If either US Airways or American is hiring, furloughed pilots on either side may volunteer to fly for the other operation. Furlough protection will be provided to all pilots at both operations, who are senior to the most junior active pilot on the “effective date.”
Under the MOU, which will now become a merger transition agreement (MTA), we have built a foundation for a new JCBA. JCBA negotiations will begin after AMR’s plan of reorganization is approved and shortly after the corporation exits bankruptcy. The seniority integration process will begin at roughly the same time but, as outlined in the MOU/MTA, the seniority integration is intended to be finished after the JCBA is concluded, but no later than two years after exit from bankruptcy. Although we all would like to see a negotiated single seniority list rather than an arbitrated one, past pilot history has shown us that this is not very likely even in the best of circumstances. Because seniority is so important and so vigorously defended, in most cases it’s often simply a “bridge too far” to expect separate pilot groups to put aside their differing interests and accomplish an integrated list without a neutral arbitrator. In this case, it is unusually complicated when you consider the longstanding divisions and current litigation between “East” and “West” at US Airways, and the effect that this may have on the process. Accordingly, while the APA leadership looks forward to negotiations, we are planning on the assumption that the seniority lists may ultimately be integrated through arbitration under the McCaskill-Bond guidelines.

Many of you are concerned that, considering history, the outcome will be a “date-of-hire” seniority list that harms your career expectations. You can be sure that your leadership will determine the position that will best reflect the American Airlines pilots’ interests, and in that regard, a three-person arbitration panel should help to ensure a fair and balanced outcome. The APA Board of Directors has appointed a Seniority Integration Committee, supported by experienced counsel, and it is ready to carefully analyze the impact of the possible seniority integration methods in the specific circumstances of this case, including date-of-hire, length of service and ratio or other methods. Your APA Board of Directors will direct the Seniority Integration Committee to develop positions that best reflect our interests and career expectations.

Bear in mind that date-of-hire is not the only way to integrate seniority lists, and in recent years has not even been a common method. The last arbitrated date-of-hire integrated seniority list arose out of the 1986 Northwest/Republic merger. In that case, the arbitrator found that the date-of-hire list could be fair and equitable only with 20-year fences between the two pilot groups. The result was 20 years of arbitrated disputes over what the award meant and how it applied. It was, therefore, generally considered to have been an operational disaster. Since the Northwest/Republic arbitration, the paradigm has shifted in favor of integrated lists based on ratios reflecting the number of jobs and other equities “brought to the merger” by each group, with fences applied for as long as necessary to keep the operation fair until the integrated list can operate fairly by itself. Career expectations at each carrier along with fleet disposition and future delivery schedules are among the important factors in constructing such a list.

While each merger and subsequent seniority integration is unique in its own way, the recent integrations at Delta/Northwest and soon-to-be United/Continental illustrate this decision-making methodology.

By now you should also understand that those things that make a merger with US Airways especially compelling from a business perspective (including strong, viable hubs and the near-complete lack of route overlap between the two route networks) also make this merger more attractive from a pilot’s perspective.
Again, we are at the beginning of a long process. While there will undoubtedly be some bumps in the road in the operational integration of the two airlines — and there will no doubt be disagreements between pilot groups and between pilots and management — those who are forecasting an “Armageddon” scenario are ignoring the success stories in recent merger history and/or have another agenda in mind. Under new management, the new American Airlines has the opportunity to change the broken culture that we have suffered under and compete on a level playing field with Delta and United. And that means a secure future for all pilots.

 

[Draginass]

Even if USAPA comes off their set-in-stone DOH mandate, it's still going to be impossible to get a negotiated settlement. Ok, so we go with ratio and some fences. Then the job of making a single list starts. APA puts their SL on the table, then what does USAPA put on the table?? If they put their Airways DOH list, there's no way that the APA can accept that since the Nic award makes it an almost certainty that it's going to court and now APA is implicated in cleaning up USAPA's bloodbath. The Nic is the 1500lb gorilla in the room and he's not going away.

I think it's likely that the negotiations between USAPA and the APA will be the shortest in airline history. I think the only thing the APA can do in practicality is to make the arguments for the recommend methodology, and just forward it to the arbitrators. That way, the arbitrators become responsible for cleaning up US Airways mess and deciding on what US Airways list to use in ratio'ing in the US Airways list into the APA list.

 

[abefly]

Even if USAPA comes off their set-in-stone DOH mandate, it's still going to be impossible to get a negotiated settlement. Ok, so we go with ratio and some fences. Then the job of making a single list starts. APA puts their SL on the table, then what does USAPA put on the table?? If they put their Airways DOH list, there's no way that the APA can accept that since the Nic award makes it an almost certainty that it's going to court and now APA is implicated in cleaning up USAPA's bloodbath. The Nic is the 1500lb gorilla in the room and he's not going away.

I think it's likely that the negotiations between USAPA and the APA will be the shortest in airline history. I think the only thing the APA can do in practicality is to make the arguments for the recommend methodology, and just forward it to the arbitrators. That way, the arbitrators become responsible for cleaning up US Airways mess and deciding on what US Airways list to use in ratio'ing in the US Airways list into the APA list.

There will be an court order long before APA has to do anything. On the POR date the East/West merger is over as we wil be in a jcba. The final step in the transition agreement. The West will finally be able to bid east via the NIC.

All parties have been put on notice by AOL. Suit to be filed shortly. Letters can be found at www.cactuspilot.com.

Donations are also appreciated.

 

[johnnyb]

There will be an court order long before APA has to do anything. On the POR date the East/West merger is over as we wil be in a jcba. The final step in the transition agreement. The West will finally be able to bid east via the NIC.

I prefer to think about boobs when I'm doing that.

 

[Dan Roman]

I am an AA pilot and frankly I have no idea how the Nic will affect us, only that in ANY scenario, the bottom half of our list will definitely take a hit. And I'm ready for that, just the nature of the beast in any merger between two large airlines.

DOH = DOA. Sorry, not gonna happen, much to Usapa's dismay. This would be way too skewed to Usapa's favor. I'm thinking it will be either the Nic with AA pilots slotted in via relative seniority, or a complete redo of all 3 lists using relative seniority.

Our union leaders and arbitrators need to enroll at Delta University for a lesson on one of the most successful, non-confrontational seniority integrations ever.

This is absolutely the most realistic perspective on here.

 

[Turtle21]

Come east baby, the first round is on us. Promise! :lol:

 

[Dornier 335]

I prefer to think about boobs when I'm doing that.

What are you talking about?