Seniority list at the new AA?

[Bringupthebird]

Is it? How much of YOUR tax money was spent to impeach Clinton? How much $$$ did the lawyers walk away with? Face it, society is changing. Starts on the top and penetrates through all levels of society.

We agree to one thing, then decide on the other. Majority rules. That in a nutshell is democracy, love it or hate it! Fact is, you get screwed. Some more than others.

What "we" are you referring to? Are you saying that you would prefer a society without a sense of "right" or "wrong"? How far would you go to advance your agenda? Society isn't changing in any permanent sense. Folks like you ride the swing toward permissiveness until it bites you so hard that you re-evaluate where your cynicism has gotten you and you begin to long for either a return to traditional values or demand justice for your newly discovered oppression.

And in this country we temper democracy as a republic and we neither love it nor hate it, but set it's boundaries so that it serves us. At it's core is the requirement to abide by agreements even when those agreements may harm us individually, but benefit us as a society.

Your flavor of relativism is nothing new, but it has always, and will always be vanquished by integrity and honor. I truly hope you live a life that gets the chance to understand that.

 

[General Lee]

Is it? How much of YOUR tax money was spent to impeach Clinton? How much $$$ did the lawyers walk away with? Face it, society is changing. Starts on the top and penetrates through all levels of society.

We agree to one thing, then decide on the other. Majority rules. That in a nutshell is democracy, love it or hate it! Fact is, you get screwed. Some more than others. I am not affected by it, am just getting tired to hear the angry haters on ALL sides, whether it's in person or on the net.

Actually, I didn't answer to you last time, because I have a life outside aviation and this bulletin board and got distracted with more interesting things. I spent/waste my time on it now, cause the weather is crap and I am procrastinating with my tax return.

As I previously wrote, and I shall repeat myself, binding doesn't mean anything these days. In the new world of "no new taxes, NOT having sex, or WMDs in a middle eastern country" if there is a legal way to circumcise "binding" and it's meaning/intention, so be it. Whether it is right or wrong. There are plenty of examples in the international business world, where e.g. people realize they signed onto a sh!tty deal and fight it. If you can appeal, because you can, appeal!

GL, you are entitled to your opinion like all the other users on this board, but what benefit do you have stirring up the same crap over and over again? You don't even work for USAir, what's your mental anal attraction with your continuous repetition regarding this monotonous subject of infinite buggeration?

Was DL fair to the companies they acquired (PA/WA)? Moreover, do you personally CARE what happened to those pilots back then? How come you don't raise this awesome subject as much as you do the USAir East/Am West or AT/SWA?

Stirring up the same crap? It's IMPORTANT TO THIS INDUSTRY TO NOT DISREGARD BINDING ARBITRATION. That isn't "crap." You and your "Bill Clinton did this....." and "Pan Am was treated this way...." is all a deflection. Why are you involved? I have friends at the West side that have been treated POORLY to say the least. I want them to get what they were AWARDED. Got it? Good.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Metrojet]

O, I must have missed the part about your airlines stellar financial history.

Ditto on that

Metro jet

 

[Metrojet]

I don't have a problem with the General rebutting the East pilots claims & advising them about karma. If the General is an "outsider" looking in, then he is just one of many that know what USAPA's DOH land grab is all about. They know about the various courtroom persecutions (Cactus18, Address-Gate, etc). They know that USAPA has spent over $10,000.000.00 in legal on fruitless, pointless, hopeless litigation. Delay is all that has been bought to date, and it has cost us ALL dearly.

I'm saluting the General. The truth shall set you free!!

Ok Cactus boy

Gotta call you out on the comments about address- gate.
How could that be blamed on the East - lets see - a website (aol) walks into the chief pilots office and says give me the list of names of the east pilots

Oh wait a minute - I have it wrong - an East pilot walks into PHX chief pilots office and says let's hand out the list of all East pilots names, address, and social security numbers so we can mail them all a nice pretty coloring book (c'mon now - you do remember those pretty glossy mailings that YOU paid for right)

I sure hope the arbitrator takes that into consideration when he puts the list together.

Honestly - you used to be somewhat thoughtful in your comments - you must be stressing out - take your own advise - it is out of your hands even though you have probably forked over some big bucks to win the lotto.

Guess what - we over in the East also have just as much if not more invested in this. I hope it works out for all.

Metrojet

 

[Metrojet]

I don't have a problem with the General rebutting the East pilots claims & advising them about karma. If the General is an "outsider" looking in, then he is just one of many that know what USAPA's DOH land grab is all about. They know about the various courtroom persecutions (Cactus18, Address-Gate, etc). They know that USAPA has spent over $10,000.000.00 in legal on fruitless, pointless, hopeless litigation. Delay is all that has been bought to date, and it has cost us ALL dearly.

I'm saluting the General. The truth shall set you free!!

Ok Cactus boy

Gotta call you out on the comments about address- gate.
How could that be blamed on the East - lets see - a westie (aol) walks into the chief pilots office and says give me the list of names of the east pilots

Oh wait a minute - I have it wrong - an East pilot walks into PHX chief pilots office and says let's hand out the list of all East pilots names, address, and social security numbers so we can mail them all a nice pretty coloring book (c'mon now - you do remember those pretty glossy mailings that YOU paid for right)

I sure hope the arbitrator takes that into consideration when he puts the list together.

Honestly - you used to be somewhat thoughtful in your comments - you must be stressing out - take your own advise - it is out of your hands even though you have probably forked over some big bucks to win the lotto.

Guess what - we over in the East also have just as much if not more invested in this. I hope it works out for all.

Metrojet

 

[General Lee]

Ok Cactus boy

Gotta call you out on the comments about address- gate.
How could that be blamed on the East - lets see - a website (aol) walks into the chief pilots office and says give me the list of names of the east pilots

Oh wait a minute - I have it wrong - an East pilot walks into PHX chief pilots office and says let's hand out the list of all East pilots names, address, and social security numbers so we can mail them all a nice pretty coloring book (c'mon now - you do remember those pretty glossy mailings that YOU paid for right)

I sure hope the arbitrator takes that into consideration when he puts the list together.

Honestly - you used to be somewhat thoughtful in your comments - you must be stressing out - take your own advise - it is out of your hands even though you have probably forked over some big bucks to win the lotto.

Guess what - we over in the East also have just as much if not more invested in this. I hope it works out for all.

Metrojet

Metrojet,

My buddy in PHX who is a mid-level A320 FO there can hold CAPT on the 320 in CLT with the NIC list. He has been sitting in pure HECK while the Easties have tried to outlast them, trying to force them into accepting something that wasn't even close to what they were legally awarded. Both MECs and management signed on the bottomline. It happened.

Any future arbitrator (who probably knows Nicolau personally) will not look at the small stuff (like sending out a mailer), rather that your side DISREGARDED a binding award. I think that will be the first thing he looks at. As the last judge said, USAPA was on "dangerous ground" doing that.

I have plenty of friends out West, and they rolled the dice and honorably stuck to whatever award happened. Nic even gave reasons why he ruled the way he did (all arbitrators do that), so if you have questions, review it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Metrojet]

Metrojet,

My buddy in PHX who is a mid-level A320 FO there can hold CAPT on the 320 in CLT with the NIC list. He has been sitting in pure HECK while the Easties have tried to outlast them, trying to force them into accepting something that wasn't even close to what they were legally awarded. Both MECs and management signed on the bottomline. It happened.

Any future arbitrator (who probably knows Nicolau personally) will not look at the small stuff (like sending out a mailer), rather that your side DISREGARDED a binding award. I think that will be the first thing he looks at. As the last judge said, USAPA was on "dangerous ground" doing that.

I have plenty of friends out West, and they rolled the dice and honorably stuck to whatever award happened. Nic even gave reasons why he ruled the way he did (all arbitrators do that), so if you have questions, review it.


Bye Bye---General Lee

General -

Do you think it would be fair that a NWA pilot based in DTW who was hired 10 years after you should be able to bid into ATL as Captain and leapfrog over you by hundreds of positions ?

I want your PHX F/O friend to bid Captain - when his doh in PHX allows him to do it - if he wants to bid clt - that is fine also as long as it is by doh - not by jumping over hundreds of pilots just because he thinks he won a lottery.

I just don't understand how you think it would be fair , as long as it wasn't happening to you?

(Of course my assumption is that you are original DAL - if your original NWA ) then i understand)!?

Metrojet

 

[Green]

General -

Do you think it would be fair that a NWA pilot based in DTW who was hired 10 years after you should be able to bid into ATL as Captain and leapfrog over you by hundreds of positions ?

I want your PHX F/O friend to bid Captain - when his doh in PHX allows him to do it - if he wants to bid clt - that is fine also as long as it is by doh - not by jumping over hundreds of pilots just because he thinks he won a lottery.

I just don't understand how you think it would be fair , as long as it wasn't happening to you?

(Of course my assumption is that you are original DAL - if your original NWA ) then i understand)!?

Metrojet

Your concept of fair has nothing to do with it. It's hard to believe the collective east mentality still doesn't comprehend binding arbitration. If you want to talk fair why should the west pilots have to suffer the past six years so your sorry airline could keep flying? It's no secret that Airways was on the verge of liquidation.

If you get divorced and come to an alimony settlement in court would changing your name absolve you from your responsibilities? If you don't feel like it was a fair outcome can you just disregard the judgment?

 

[PuffDriver]

Your concept of fair has nothing to do with it. It's hard to believe the collective east mentality still doesn't comprehend binding arbitration. If you want to talk fair why should the west pilots have to suffer the past six years so your sorry airline could keep flying? It's no secret that Airways was on the verge of liquidation.

If you get divorced and come to an alimony settlement in court would changing your name absolve you from your responsibilities? If you don't feel like it was a fair outcome can you just disregard the judgment?

Nope, but when the situation changes, you go back to court and adjust the alimony. Nice example. :beer:

 

[cactusboy53]

Ok Cactus boy

Gotta call you out on the comments about address- gate.
How could that be blamed on the East - lets see - a website (aol) walks into the chief pilots office and says give me the list of names of the east pilots

Oh wait a minute - I have it wrong - an East pilot walks into PHX chief pilots office and says let's hand out the list of all East pilots names, address, and social security numbers so we can mail them all a nice pretty coloring book (c'mon now - you do remember those pretty glossy mailings that YOU paid for right).

I sure hope the arbitrator takes that into consideration when he puts the list together.

Honestly - you used to be somewhat thoughtful in your comments - you must be stressing out - take your own advise - it is out of your hands even though you have probably forked over some big bucks to win the lotto.

Guess what - we over in the East also have just as much if not more invested in this. I hope it works out for all.

Metrojet

Mj;
While you have some of the facts, you don't have all of the facts of the case. Ultimately it comes down to these words from Steven Johnson (LCC EVP): "… The investigation found no evidence that members of Leonidas used or further disclosed the social security numbers for any purpose. The Excel file did not contain passport numbers or information pertaining to the federal flight deck officer program..

In summary, an extensive investigation has concluded there is no evidence any pilot should be concerned.."


Address-gate is just another of many persecution attempts against the West Class pilot group.



Did you know that anyone can go and buy a pilot data (www.landings.com)? Since we (pilots) must notify the government every time we move, the information is readily available. That's why you get mailings from John & Martha King every month. I don't see anyone suing them for those mailings.



The arbitrators will take everything into consideration, believe me.


Speaking of investment, we (the West Class) have been paying for both sides of the legal fence, so I think we have you beat.


Regards,
CB

 

[General Lee]

General -

Do you think it would be fair that a NWA pilot based in DTW who was hired 10 years after you should be able to bid into ATL as Captain and leapfrog over you by hundreds of positions ?

I want your PHX F/O friend to bid Captain - when his doh in PHX allows him to do it - if he wants to bid clt - that is fine also as long as it is by doh - not by jumping over hundreds of pilots just because he thinks he won a lottery.

I just don't understand how you think it would be fair , as long as it wasn't happening to you?

(Of course my assumption is that you are original DAL - if your original NWA ) then i understand)!��

Metrojet

Your assumption is correct. Mergers are NEVER fun, but airlines aren't equal. Some are close, but some have strengths the others do not. A merger of total equals would be easy, blend them right together, 1 for 1. It never is that easy. First off, both agreed to binding arbitration. I know I harp on that, but it is extremely important. So, the NEUTRAL will decide what is fair. He saw the financials, he saw what "was going on." He then asked the two parties to try to merge the lists first. They couldn't. Then he tried to help them. They wouldn't. Then he listened to each of them give their own case, and then after that, he even asked the East side to come off the DOH request and try something else (that was a huge hint). When they wouldn't, he gave a list that he thought was fair, given the overall circumstances. He even gave an essay explaining it. He saw some big differences, like USAir East's INTL ops and widebody ops, and gave the top 500 spots to all East guys. But after that, he thought it was FAIR to blend it in, given USAir's poor financials etc.

Regardless of how you and I think, this arbitrator was there and heard the facts, and watched them try to hack it out. It was his call.

In the DL/NWA merger, there were DL guys who were hired two years after NWA guys that were placed in front of them on the eventual list. The 3 arbitrators decided that was fair. There were DL 2007 hires that were placed in front of year 2000 hires at NWA. (the FNWA guys were furloughed and the DL guys were actively flying longer) That may not seem fair, but the 3 saw it that way. (those same FNWA pilots actually are paid more than the 2007 DL guys ahead of them, the FNWA guys were given longevity credit for each year they were out on furlough---so some of them are paid 12th year rates, while the 2007 guys are still on 6 or 7 year pay---something they would not have gotten in the NWA contract, and something UAL did not give their own furloughs)

So, overall, it all comes down to the NEUTRAL. If you don't want to gamble, then don't sign up for it. It's like signing up for Judge Judy. She seems nice, but in the end you may have to pay up. What happens if you don't pay up? I think someone would eventually come knocking, and that is the same with binding arbitration. Eventually you will have to give up.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Nope, but when the situation changes, you go back to court and adjust the alimony. Nice example. :beer:

Looks like the judge doesn't see much change in the last hearing:


"Of course, in negotiating for a particular seniority regime, USAPA must not breach its duty of fair representation. Accordingly, if USAPA wishes to abandon the Nicolau award and accept the consequences of this course of action, it is free to do so. By discarding the result of a valid arbitration and negotiating for a different seniority regime, USAPA is running the risk that it will be sued by the disadvantaged pilots when the new collective bargaining agreement is finalized. An impartial arbitrator’s decision regarding an appropriate method of seniority integration is powerful evidence of a fair result. Discarding the Nicolau Award places USAPA on dangerous ground."


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[weasel_lips]

You guys will never quit. Seems like you all would get tired of saying the same thing thread after thread after thread. Agree to disagree and wait the process out. Online bickering is not going to change a single mind or the outcome.

 

[Metrojet]

Mj;
While you have some of the facts, you don't have all of the facts of the case. Ultimately it comes down to these words from Steven Johnson (LCC EVP): "… The investigation found no evidence that members of Leonidas used or further disclosed the social security numbers for any purpose. The Excel file did not contain passport numbers or information pertaining to the federal flight deck officer program..

In summary, an extensive investigation has concluded there is no evidence any pilot should be concerned.."


Address-gate is just another of many persecution attempts against the West Class pilot group.



Did you know that anyone can go and buy a pilot data (www.landings.com)? Since we (pilots) must notify the government every time we move, the information is readily available. That's why you get mailings from John & Martha King every month. I don't see anyone suing them for those mailings.



The arbitrators will take everything into consideration, believe me.


Speaking of investment, we (the West Class) have been paying for both sides of the legal fence, so I think we have you beat.


Regards,
CB

Cactus boy

Yes - I agree that is what the investigation found ( by a partisan party ) , but why then did Airways EVP provide one year of LIFE LOCK security protection for the East? Surely not because they "like us". Just sayin --

On another note - this thread is actually going back to a normal discussion ( even the General).

Believe me, I probably know how all the PHX F/O' s feel. Many of us on the East have been in similar positions over the last few years.

I don't know your age - but I bet I am older than the average in PHX - if this gets approved by the bankruptcy judge - well even with fences - you all out West should be in pretty good shape in less time than you think, with all the retirements at AA and US East.

Metrojet

 

[Dornier 335]

This just in ...

from USAPA:

On July 26, 2010, US Airways filed a lawsuit in federal court in Arizona before Judge Silver seeking a declaratory judgment. The action was to determine whether USAPA is required to implement the Nicolau Award or is free to pursue a different seniority proposal. A class of west pilots argued that USAPA was required to implement the Nicolau Award. USAPA argued that it was not required to implement the Nic.
Two years later on October 11, 2012, Judge Silver dismissed counts I and III of US Airways’ claim and entered a judgment in favor of the US Airline Pilots Association on Count II of the complaint. Her judgment stated that the US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose. US Airways, supported by the West Pilot Class, then asked Judge Silver to reconsider her decision. That was denied, and her judgment was reaffirmed in favor of USAPA. On December 31, 2012, US Airways appealed the decision of Judge Silver to the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.
Yesterday USAPA’s lawyers asked the Ninth Circuit to expedite the appeal filed by US Airways in order to have it decided prior to a merger with APA. We want there to be no uncertainty about whether USAPA can pursue a different seniority proposal pursuant to a merger. USAPA legal counsel is confident that a prompt resolution of this case will result in the Circuit Court again upholding the USAPA position. The West Pilots have indicated that they will oppose a prompt resolution of the US Airways appeal. USAPA’s motion to expedite and supporting papers are posted in the USAPA Legal Library.
During the past several days, the lawyer for the West Pilot Class has sent letters to USAPA, APA and US Airways suggesting that the West Pilots would file a lawsuit to stop the merger unless US Airways implements the Nicolau Award. These letters were fully anticipated by our legal team. USAPA’s position as advised by our legal counsel is that there is no legitimate legal basis for any action to stop the merger. USAPA is fully prepared to defend whatever legal action might be filed that would jeopardize the merger.
Our union, our lawyers and our merger counsel have been advised that USAPA will begin the seniority integration process with APA by pursuing what Article I, Section 8 D of our Constitution requires, “To maintain uniform principles of seniority based on date of hire and the perpetuation thereof, with reasonable conditions and restrictions to preserve each pilot’s un-merged career expectations.”
This merger provides substantial and life changing benefits to all USAPA pilots, including those based in Phoenix. USAPA will aggressively oppose any efforts to slow down or stop the merger process and will be equally vigilant in adhering to our constitutionally mandated principles that reject the Nicolau Award in its entirety.

 

[abefly]

Sounds like desperation...DOH is DOA

 

[get2flyin]

Cactus boy

Yes - I agree that is what the investigation found ( by a partisan party ) , but why then did Airways EVP provide one year of LIFE LOCK security protection for the East? Surely not because they "like us". Just sayin --

On another note - this thread is actually going back to a normal discussion ( even the General).

Believe me, I probably know how all the PHX F/O' s feel. Many of us on the East have been in similar positions over the last few years.

I don't know your age - but I bet I am older than the average in PHX - if this gets approved by the bankruptcy judge - well even with fences - you all out West should be in pretty good shape in less time than you think, with all the retirements at AA and US East.

Metrojet

Ah, the patronizing, "I was your age once and I know how you feel. Just roll over like a good dog and before you know it you'll get what scraps are left after I'm done at the trough". Spare the sentiments. The majority of the West pilots aren't as young as you're trying to convince your AA counterparts.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Sounds like desperation...DOH is DOA

Word.

 

[The Drizzle]

Can anybody else not wait until the APA just steps on the collective east/west necks and ends this whole debacle?

 

[General Lee]

Can anybody else not wait until the APA just steps on the collective east/west necks and ends this whole debacle?

So what did the West guys do wrong again? Tried to follow an award given to them by an arbitrator? You know, the one BOTH sides agreed to?


Bye Bye---General Lee