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Seniority list at the new AA?

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Your post count is so impressive that no one can resist it's allure!

Besides, you never actually respond to my posts anyway.

:pimp: <-- Your brain on flight info. :D

Your diatribe was exhausting. You are overlooking the big picture, you and your group agreed to something that was binding, and the company did too. Stop right there. Now, you shortly will do the SAME thing with the APA. Before you do, you will have to revert back to the award, or everyone who participates with you will be sued, and they probably don't want that. The latest judge also said your new union is treading on "dangerous ground" (her words). So, you can try to justify it all you want, but you shouldn't have agreed to it if you weren't going to abide by it. Sad but true.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Your diatribe was exhausting. You are overlooking the big picture, you and your group agreed to something that was binding, and the company did too. Stop right there. Now, you shortly will do the SAME thing with the APA. Before you do, you will have to revert back to the award, or everyone who participates with you will be sued, and they probably don't want that. The latest judge also said your new union is treading on "dangerous ground" (her words). So, you can try to justify it all you want, but you shouldn't have agreed to it if you weren't going to abide by it. Sad but true.



Bye Bye---General Lee


General, Nicolai has nothing to do with me—I'm an outsider looking in.

Feel free to respond my points when you catch you're no longer exhausted.
 
General, Nicolai has nothing to do with me—I'm an outsider looking in.

Feel free to respond my points when you catch you're no longer exhausted.

Whew! Caught my breath.... Here is your problem in your long statement:

"The West may not be "damaged" until a SLI award and/or JCBA is issued. Furthermore, APA/USAPA may find a "legitimate union purpose" in not severely damaging the careers of soon to be retired American pilots by avoiding a West pilot windfall."


The APA wants no part of a lawsuit, they want US to solve the problem. The creditors also want no problems, and rumor has it that the creditor committee lawyer has pushed for USAPA to possibly give in as a condition of approval for the merger. Sounds like everyone other than the Easties want this over, and they are acting like spoiled brats who crossed their other fingers while giving a handshake, or in this case signed on the bottom line, along with management, who also doesn't want to be potentially sued. Since you too are on the outside looking in, you should express your own disappointment toward these Easties, who will forever change the way our industry does binding arbitration. You just can't trust anyone it seems, even after signing on the bottom line. What a shame.

What is your opinion about not abiding by a binding agreement signed beforehand by all parties?


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:
Whew! Caught my breath.... Here is your problem in your long statement:

"The West may not be "damaged" until a SLI award and/or JCBA is issued. Furthermore, APA/USAPA may find a "legitimate union purpose" in not severely damaging the careers of soon to be retired American pilots by avoiding a West pilot windfall."


The APA wants no part of a lawsuit, they want US to solve the problem. The creditors also want no problems, and rumor has it that the creditor committee lawyer has pushed for USAPA to possibly give in as a condition of approval for the merger. Sounds like everyone other than the Easties want this over, and they are acting like spoiled brats who crossed their other fingers while giving a handshake, or in this case signed on the bottom line, along with management, who also doesn't want to be potentially sued. Since you too are on the outside looking in, you should express your own disappointment toward these Easties, who will forever change the way our industry does binding arbitration. You just can't trust anyone it seems, even after signing on the bottom line. What a shame.

What is your opinion about not abiding by a binding agreement signed beforehand by all parties?


Bye Bye---General Lee


How can you claim to know half of the information in your post as fact?


I sympathize with East pilots because they are so old and susceptible. While West pilots have time on there sides, East pilots don't have time to makeup the damages they may otherwise receive. In a worst case scenario, West pilots will benefit from never before seen seniority movement.

I hear a lot of people cry foul about binding arbitration, but this issue is not a matter of integrity. Both East and West pilot representatives were devoid of integrity and the process evolved into something beyond good will—both pilot representatives were nasty, hypocritical and let their respective groups down.

Contract law is obviously not as binding as everyone once thought.
 
How can you claim to know half of the information in your post as fact?


I sympathize with East pilots because they are so old and susceptible. While West pilots have time on there sides, East pilots don't have time to makeup the damages they may otherwise receive. In a worst case scenario, West pilots will benefit from never before seen seniority movement.

I hear a lot of people cry foul about binding arbitration, but this issue is not a matter of integrity. Both East and West pilot representatives were devoid of integrity and the process evolved into something beyond good will—both pilot representatives were nasty, hypocritical and let their respective groups down.

Contract law is obviously not as binding as everyone once thought.

Oh, but contract law will come through in the end, it's obviously not over yet, and judges (plural) have told the Westies that their time will be coming. (When ripe). So, let me get this straight, you think the Easties should prevail because they are an older group overall? What? You sympathize with them. Ok, that's your opinion, but was that issue brought up to the neutral? It obviously was, and he didn't appear to care. He gave the top 500 slots to all Easties. He also supposedly (I wasn't there) told the East pilots that their dreams of DOH weren't going to work, so to please keep negotiating (he gave them a big hint), and they still stuck with DOH. So, it looks like one group wouldn't play nice, and that is the problem here. Regardless of age, you have try to MERGE in a merger. You sign up for binding arbitration, you do it. Btw, their attitude towards this has cost the Eastie Captains about $4K a month, for the last 4 years, which also affects their retirement. Strong conviction, that will probably lose in the end anyway.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
The shot across the bow is delegating Usair to RJ growth and AA to mainline growth, that's the start of an epic fail which I mentioned earlier. Then have the gall to say the SLI won't be done for years and will be favorable to AA, ie, the bankrupt pilots.

Interesting. Who were the bankrupt pilots in East/West? The view of the East shifts always with the self serving breeze.
 
From USAPA:

Last month the pilots of US Airways voted overwhelmingly to ratify the Memorandum of Understanding for a merger with American Airlines. This historic decision will lead to better wages, benefits, and working conditions for us all. While a final JCBA will be negotiated with the New American Airlines that can bring even more improvements, the MOU itself provides $1.6 billion in economic improvements for you over the next six years.

The vote on the MOU was impressive. Some 95% of US Airways pilots turned out, with 76% voting in favor of it. Every domicile overwhelmingly supported the MOU, including Phoenix where 98% of Phoenix-based pilots voted in favor of it. Despite this overwhelming support for the MOU, a few represented by Leonidas LLC are threatening the American Airlines/US Airways merger that was endorsed so strongly by the Phoenix-based pilots.

Eleven days after the MOU was ratified by the pilots of US Airways and five days after the boards of American Airlines and US Airways unanimously approved and announced the merger, the attorney for Leonidas LLC threatened “to file a third round of litigation and seek an injunction of the merger process until we can get a court order directing that the only [seniority] list that can be used is the Nicolau.” The next day, the same attorney wrote a second letter, stating that Leonidas LLC “anticipates litigation and hereby requests that the US Airline Pilots Association... place a litigation hold on certain materials that will be discoverable in such litigation.” Similar letters were sent to APA and US Airways.

Unfortunately these are not idle threats. In the past five years, Leonidas LLC has spent a significant amount of time and money suing USAPA, only to have their cases dismissed.

While Leonidas LLC claims to represent all West pilots; I do not think that is the case. Why? Because 98% of Phoenix-based pilots voted in favor of the MOU and the process outlined for JCBA negotiations and seniority integration. Just 11 days after their near unanimous vote, the attorney for Leonidas LLC threatened to derail the deal. No other domicile showed greater support for the MOU. In fact, only 24 out of 1041 PHX pilots voting said no to the MOU.

We cannot stand idly by while a handful of individuals seek to derail an MOU that US Airways pilots overwhelmingly support. That’s why your BPR today approved the filing of a lawsuit in the American Airlines bankruptcy court to prevent Leonidas LLC from interfering with the bankruptcy. This is not an action against the Phoenix-based pilots, nor is it a course of action that anyone desires. Rather, we have been forced to file this action to protect the rights of all pilots – West and East – who overwhelmingly voted in favor of the MOU and the process to move us all collectively forward.

Despite our filing in the bankruptcy court today, we will continue to represent all pilots – East and West alike. Pilots from all domiciles are on our BPR and important committees such as NAC and Grievance. They continue to find common ground and have learned how to work together in a process that benefits us all.

On my first day in office, I appointed a West pilot, Ken Stravers, to the Merger Committee, based on the recommendation of Phoenix-based pilots. Unfortunately, before the BPR could approve Ken’s appointment, the same West pilots changed their mind and withdrew their recommendation. Despite this, I am still committed to appointing Phoenix-based pilots to important committees. We are stronger when we work together.

It’s no secret that the Company has exploited our divisions for far too long. Over the past 10 months we were able to turn down the volume, unite the parts into the whole, and work as one union toward our mutual goal of industry standard wages, benefits and working conditions. That is my pledge to you. Despite the noise being generated by a few, USAPA will continue to represent all pilots and ensure that this union moves in a direction that benefits us all.
 
Wow, who would have thought that forcing the unscrupulous east to keep their word is "threatening" the merger? So, unless the east is allowed to be dishonest, the merger can't take place...just wow...
 
The filings by Leonidas are strictly boilerplate legal actions to maintain the standing of the West pilots in the dispute so that they can sue all the parties involved if Nicolau is abrogated in the SLI and the case becomes ripe. Nothing more.

There is NO WAY APA will even consider East's DOH proposal and expose themselves to HUGE legal liability. This WILL go to arbitration and I hope it is an accelerated process so that we can FINALLY see who was right and who was East...er, I mean wrong.
 
From USAPA:

Last month the pilots of US Airways voted overwhelmingly to ratify the Memorandum of Understanding for a merger with American Airlines. This historic decision will lead to better wages, benefits, and working conditions for us all. While a final JCBA will be negotiated with the New American Airlines that can bring even more improvements, the MOU itself provides $1.6 billion in economic improvements for you over the next six years.

The vote on the MOU was impressive. Some 95% of US Airways pilots turned out, with 76% voting in favor of it. Every domicile overwhelmingly supported the MOU, including Phoenix where 98% of Phoenix-based pilots voted in favor of it. Despite this overwhelming support for the MOU, a few represented by Leonidas LLC are threatening the American Airlines/US Airways merger that was endorsed so strongly by the Phoenix-based pilots.

Eleven days after the MOU was ratified by the pilots of US Airways and five days after the boards of American Airlines and US Airways unanimously approved and announced the merger, the attorney for Leonidas LLC threatened “to file a third round of litigation and seek an injunction of the merger process until we can get a court order directing that the only [seniority] list that can be used is the Nicolau.” The next day, the same attorney wrote a second letter, stating that Leonidas LLC “anticipates litigation and hereby requests that the US Airline Pilots Association... place a litigation hold on certain materials that will be discoverable in such litigation.” Similar letters were sent to APA and US Airways.

Unfortunately these are not idle threats. In the past five years, Leonidas LLC has spent a significant amount of time and money suing USAPA, only to have their cases dismissed.

While Leonidas LLC claims to represent all West pilots; I do not think that is the case. Why? Because 98% of Phoenix-based pilots voted in favor of the MOU and the process outlined for JCBA negotiations and seniority integration. Just 11 days after their near unanimous vote, the attorney for Leonidas LLC threatened to derail the deal. No other domicile showed greater support for the MOU. In fact, only 24 out of 1041 PHX pilots voting said no to the MOU.

We cannot stand idly by while a handful of individuals seek to derail an MOU that US Airways pilots overwhelmingly support. That’s why your BPR today approved the filing of a lawsuit in the American Airlines bankruptcy court to prevent Leonidas LLC from interfering with the bankruptcy. This is not an action against the Phoenix-based pilots, nor is it a course of action that anyone desires. Rather, we have been forced to file this action to protect the rights of all pilots – West and East – who overwhelmingly voted in favor of the MOU and the process to move us all collectively forward.

Despite our filing in the bankruptcy court today, we will continue to represent all pilots – East and West alike. Pilots from all domiciles are on our BPR and important committees such as NAC and Grievance. They continue to find common ground and have learned how to work together in a process that benefits us all.

On my first day in office, I appointed a West pilot, Ken Stravers, to the Merger Committee, based on the recommendation of Phoenix-based pilots. Unfortunately, before the BPR could approve Ken’s appointment, the same West pilots changed their mind and withdrew their recommendation. Despite this, I am still committed to appointing Phoenix-based pilots to important committees. We are stronger when we work together.

It’s no secret that the Company has exploited our divisions for far too long. Over the past 10 months we were able to turn down the volume, unite the parts into the whole, and work as one union toward our mutual goal of industry standard wages, benefits and working conditions. That is my pledge to you. Despite the noise being generated by a few, USAPA will continue to represent all pilots and ensure that this union moves in a direction that benefits us all.


Funny stuff. It might be true 98% of the Westies voted for the MOU, because they WANT the merger with AA, to eventually dump USAPA. Staying status quo hasn't helped the Westies at all. A merge will FORCE the NIC to be awarded finally. The stooge writing that forgot to mention it..... I don't think the 98% would vote for anything allowing the NIC to be discarded. Nah.....


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Gee Gary, accept the Nicolau (since you've stolen the rightful seniority of the majority of the west pilots by this time anyhow) and see how that greases your beloved merger.
 
I forget, wasn't that arbitration an internal "union" process, which even though is was supposedly binding, even the president of such esteemed organization tried to get the parties to negotiate away from such?

I would think that an internal process is different from a federal mandated one, say like with a brokerage house or something.......... So yes if US had stayed alpa, it would be binding.....but Poof, alpa was gone (even though the west said it would never happen, east didn't have the votes) Sorta like BK laws and being able to abrograte contracts almost at will.......

I see, you think it's ok for corporations to stretch contract law, but not individuals?

I could be wrong,,,,,,
 
I forget, wasn't that arbitration an internal "union" process, which even though is was supposedly binding, even the president of such esteemed organization tried to get the parties to negotiate away from such?

I would think that an internal process is different from a federal mandated one, say like with a brokerage house or something.......... So yes if US had stayed alpa, it would be binding.....but Poof, alpa was gone (even though the west said it would never happen, east didn't have the votes) Sorta like BK laws and being able to abrograte contracts almost at will.......

I see, you think it's ok for corporations to stretch contract law, but not individuals?

I could be wrong,,,,,,

Not just no, but HELL NO!!!! It is not ok for corporations to stretch contract law!! Are you stupid??? And it is not ok for a union either. The RLA says that agreements are inherited. Thus, management may not change the corporate name and abrogate a contract or renege on shareholder obligations. Neither can a union. And it is high time the courts biotch slap the scumbags who are trying to do just that.
 

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