Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[Turtle21]

DFR trial, part deux. There's no way another jury would come to the same unanimous verdict in under two hours of deliberation again, right?

If you say so.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Yeah, the law. Tashima and Graber already sent their condolences. What more do you want?

Remind me again, what did Tashima and Graber rule on? Was is merit or ripeness?

 

[Hpilot]

Wrong.

AWA actually attained major status before Southwest.



AWA pilots negotiated two working agreements.

The first one was negotiated and ratified under the auspices of chapter 11 bankruptcy. First year pay was the highest of any major.

The second agreement was negotiated under the covenants proscribed by the ATSB in the wake of the 9-11 attacks. This agreement still brought raises and improved scheduling. Better schedules than USAir east pilot have.

While AWA pilots were able to improve pay and working conditions while having to fight chapter 11 and then the ATSB the USAir pilots were giving everything they could think of away. The let my Daddy vote campaign (i.e. we are scared of everything Mr. Management Man, please make the bad times go away.)

In other words; pathetic behavior by the east pilots.



AWA was profitable. In fact AWA had to cover USAir's payroll for the first six months after the merger was announced.

USAir was pretty close to death. I know that because we have a few pilots who did free lance Airbus repositioning flying. I personally know of two pilots who were put on standby by GE to move USAir airbuses to temporary staging in the desert.



USAir would have liquidated and AWA would have lived years longer and would have had several opportunities to merge with other carriers. In addition, the vacuum left by the death of USAir would have provided growth opportunities for all remaining carriers with access to capitol.

AWA had access to capitol.



You have been consistently wrong about everything so why should anyone listen to a PFT Gulfstream washout?

Not only are you a PFT loser but you were not even smart enough to go to a place where you could get your money's worth.

You could not even buy a job successfully.

What is your obsession with USAir east?

You don't work there and based on your stellar aviation trajectory you likely will never see the flightdeck of any major airline. Which is a good thing.

Your daddy must be a really bitter guy. Probably because he thinks his twelve years of furlough time should place him senior to a west captain.

Both he and you are delusional and none too bright.

Thank you for correcting MCdoosh, I don't always have the time to bring him back to reality. It must really burn him up, the fact that little AWA saved US from liquidation.

 

[doh]

Carl, there must be some concern on the part of the elected representatives at USAPA that the 9th was not so iron clad in its ruling. Otherwise, how to explain their refusal to meet with those they are elected to represent? I would call the spin they are putting out more what USAPA hopes the 9th meant with their ruling.

 

[Cowboy75]

Carl, there must be some concern on the part of the elected representatives at USAPA that the 9th was not so iron clad in its ruling. Otherwise, how to explain their refusal to meet with those they are elected to represent? I would call the spin they are putting out more what USAPA hopes the 9th meant with their ruling.

They understand that the 9th's ruling was simply a punt. The Usapian spin machine just spits out their propaganda knowing good and well they are going to be dragged back in court again. Everything thus far has been a delay tactic. That strategy can't be used forever and will end. They'll look back at all the wasted time and money spent only to have it come full circle back to the arbitrated list.

They will never see DOH on this property. They will try and we will make sure that that fantasy list goes in the garbage where it belongs.

 

[Turtle21]

Remind me again, what did Tashima and Graber rule on? Was is merit or ripeness?

USAPA had five complaints in the appeal, the first being ripeness, the others being merits were not ruled on since the entire case was dismissed. Wake was ordered to vacate his erroneous injunction that prevented the union from freely dealing with the internal union dispute according to the DFR standard of the SCOTUS.

Thanks for askin'.

 

[Carl S.]

If I recall, all the merits were weak and ripeness was the full court press during oral and written arguements(premature adjuciation was the pun). Please refresh us on those stellar merits that were to be reviewed if ripeness failed! SCOTUS DFR standards? Is that a USAPA wet dream?

 

[vetrider]

USAPA had five complaints in the appeal, the first being ripeness, the others being merits were not ruled on since the entire case was dismissed. Wake was ordered to vacate his erroneous injunction that prevented the union from freely dealing with the internal union dispute according to the DFR standard of the SCOTUS.

Thanks for askin'.

Did you read Lance's latest missive?

 

[doh]

USAPA had five complaints in the appeal, the first being ripeness, the others being merits were not ruled on since the entire case was dismissed. Wake was ordered to vacate his erroneous injunction that prevented the union from freely dealing with the internal union dispute according to the DFR standard of the SCOTUS.

Thanks for askin'.

Okay, then why refuse to meet with the west pilots? If there is no legal reason not to? I keep asking and you folks keep not answering.

 

[Guppiedriver]

USAPA had five complaints in the appeal, the first being ripeness, the others being merits were not ruled on since the entire case was dismissed. Wake was ordered to vacate his erroneous injunction that prevented the union from freely dealing with the internal union dispute according to the DFR standard of the SCOTUS.

Thanks for askin'.

I actually read the 9th ruling and it said none of that. Did you form your opinion based on USAPA's Reader Digest version?

 

[B-atch]

Okay, then why refuse to meet with the west pilots? If there is no legal reason not to? I keep asking and you folks keep not answering.

"keep not answering"?? Who's the DMF NOW!!

 

[Captzaahlie]

Okay, then why refuse to meet with the west pilots? If there is no legal reason not to? I keep asking and you folks keep not answering.

Simple, because the don't REALLY represent us.....

 

[doh]

"keep not answering"?? Who's the DMF NOW!!

Vernacular is an acceptable writing style when engaged in informal discussion. Misspelling is not.

 

[doh]

Simple, because the don't REALLY represent us.....

Ah, but legally don't they have a "Duty of Fair Representation"? And so we come full circle and return to the heart of the matter. :beer:

 

[Captzaahlie]

Simple, because the don't REALLY represent us.....

Simple, because theY don't REALLY represent us.....

 

[Cowboy75]

Simple, because theY don't REALLY represent us.....

It's better to watch the train wreck rather than riding along while it goes off the cliff.

 

[Cowboy75]

Posted by USAPAWATCH

This evening USAPA issued an update regarding their completely ineffective Leadership Walk held last week in Philadelphia. Despite bringing out the big guns from our soon to be national union (Teamsters) and some east AFA officers, few outsiders noticed the 75 or so pilots attending the event on their own dime.

When the former bargaining agent held a coast-to-coast picket during 2006, close to 1000 unified pilots sent a clear message to US Airways management. Over three years since the formation of USAPA, the best that could be mustered was a mere 75 pilots rounded up to the nearest 150 with significant flight pay loss.

USAPA is the only one to blame for our rock bottom wages and work rules. Mr. Cleary’s MO is all about delay.

The next time you have to decide whether to run a balance on your credit card or delay the payment on a loan, send an email to Mr. Cleary thanking him for all his hard work.

Some show of unity with 75 showing up? I'll bet the folks in Tempe are laughing all the way to the bank.​

Thanks USAPA.​

 

[MCDU]

USAIR is fine with separate ops. So are the majority of East pilots.

Lets just do the MDA thing.

Like MDA= AWA pilots are on the same certificate, have the same dispatchers and schedulers. Like MDA, the only thing you can not do is bid over to certain airplanes.

According to West posters that would be ok. Because that is how MDA was treated. According to West pilots MDA was not USAIR, just like AWA pilot group is not USAIR. If it would be, you could bid the 330 or the 767 or the 190. Since you can not bid these positions like the MDA pilots, you should not be considered USAIR pilots and if we merge we will count the WEST just like MDA. Non existent and not having a job. Fair? Right.

M

 

[get2flyin]

The USAIR is fine with separate ops. So are the majority of East pilots. Lets just do the MDA thing. Like MDA=Same certificate, Same dispatchers and schedulers. Like MDA, the only thing you can not do is bid over. According to West posters that would be ok. Because that is how MDA was treated. According to West pilots MDA was not USAIR, just like AWA pilot group is not USAIR. If it would be, you could bid the 330 or the 767 or the 190. Since you can not bid these positions like the MDA pilots, you should not be considered USAIR pilots and if we merge we will count the WEST just like MDA. Non existent. Fair? Right.

M

Marty, Marty, Marty...when are you going to accept the fact the OLD USAir is dead? It's GONE.

How about this...I would accept locking USAir East off from the rest of the system if all new hires are placed on the West list and all new aircraft are added into the West system. Wide bodies, narrow bodies, Super RJs, whatever. The East keeps the aircraft they have (*identified by serial number) and the West pilots will never fly them. As the East list gets smaller (due to your anticipated attrition) and the aircraft are retired, West "bases" will open in CLT and PHL and whatever else is added.

Your pals would get to keep exactly what they have right now, including work rules, benefits, contract, USAPA...everything. You'd get exactly what you want without any meddling from the West pilots. The West could dump the USAPA social club and get a real union.

How does that sound? I think it's reasonable.

 

[Cowboy75]

Marty, Marty, Marty...when are you going to accept the fact the OLD USAir is dead? It's GONE.

That's too funny, I was going to start my response with Marty x 3.
You beat me to it. :beer:

 

[Cowboy75]

USAIR is fine with separate ops. So are the majority of East pilots.

You should not be considered USAIR pilots and if we merge we will count the WEST just like MDA.

M

East pilots formed a seperate union. We get the picture.

That's OK with me. I was proud to fly for America West. Never considered UsAir. My jumpseat form always says HP.

 

[Turtle21]

Did you read Lance's latest missive?

Lance!?

You are referring to Lance for support?

You have absolutely no idea. Its not your fault, but you really have no clue.

 

[B-atch]

Marty, Marty, Marty...when are you going to accept the fact the OLD USAir is dead? It's GONE.

How about this...I would accept locking USAir East off from the rest of the system if all new hires are placed on the West list and all new aircraft are added into the West system. Wide bodies, narrow bodies, Super RJs, whatever. The East keeps the aircraft they have (*identified by serial number) and the West pilots will never fly them. As the East list gets smaller (due to your anticipated attrition) and the aircraft are retired, West "bases" will open in CLT and PHL and whatever else is added.

Your pals would get to keep exactly what they have right now, including work rules, benefits, contract, USAPA...everything. You'd get exactly what you want without any meddling from the West pilots. The West could dump the USAPA social club and get a real union.

How does that sound? I think it's reasonable.

Easy answer WEST SIDE MAKES NO MONEY!!! EAST side does!! West bases on the east? Simple economics...LOA 93 WE DO IT CHEAPER!! Not by choice, but by the short sightedness of the WEST. You encourage Douggie to keep US on the lower pay-scale.

Remember the APA sick-out a few years back, No, I do. Case in point. APA did not want AMR to run RENO-AIR as an alter-ego airline within the American system. APA demanded that the Reno pilots be immediately placed on the current PAY rates and work rules of their existing contract.

And yet you sit here and bash USAPA for its existence.. How about enlightening ALL of US why "The West" now operates 24% of east routes...
Oh wait I have the answer, USAPA won a minimum block hr. grievance for the West!! Although the Vegas domicile NO LONGER EXISTS, the WEST has evaded disastrous downsizing by taking EAST flying!!

And now YOU want EAST bases?....... What are YOU implying??

 

[B-atch]

How about this...I would accept locking USAir East off from the rest of the system if all new hires are placed on the West list and all new aircraft are added into the West system. Wide bodies, narrow bodies, Super RJs, whatever.
How does that sound? I think it's reasonable.

Wow talk about ENTILEMENT!!

Isn't this One of the many reasons to nullify the NIC award by ALPA merger policy?
"One pilot group CANNOT progress at the DETRIMENT of another"
Your groups mindset and actions speak louder than words!!
YOU would be willing to advance onto another pilots turf in order to benefit YOUR-SELF!!

Last time I checked........... Interpret MY silence.

 

[get2flyin]

Wow talk about ENTILEMENT!!

Isn't this One of the many reasons to nullify the NIC award by ALPA merger policy?
"One pilot group CANNOT progress at the DETRIMENT of another"
Your groups mindset and actions speak louder than words!!
YOU would be willing to advance onto another pilots turf in order to benefit YOUR-SELF!!

Last time I checked........... Interpret MY silence.

Riiiiiiight. Or everyone can follow the East entitlement plan of "return from furlough to the left seat in Phoenix, and then make pretty much ALL West pilots furlough fodder". THAT"mindset" is what got USAir pilots (*the NEW USAir, in case you forgot) to where they are now.

Nic award. No fences. The West pilots accept that far more commuting Easties will go West that the other way around. It is going to slow upgrades down in Phoenix and create openings in the Philly. I think you'd be surprised at how many West people won't find commuting there a viable choice, but why accept some bogus fence when Nic already settled the dispute?

 

[TWA Dude]

Wow talk about ENTILEMENT!!

All we're entitled to is the Nicolau list. And your wives and daughters. Just kidding about that last part. No I wasn't. Yeah I was. Oh, I don't know. Pass them over and then I'll decide. If they're pretty I make no promises.

 

[get2flyin]

Easy answer WEST SIDE MAKES NO MONEY!!! EAST side does!! West bases on the east? Simple economics...LOA 93 WE DO IT CHEAPER!! Not by choice, but by the short sightedness of the WEST. You encourage Douggie to keep US on the lower pay-scale.

Here we go again. Poor Easties...you insist on separate ops, then in the same breath you want West pay and work rules. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Why is this so hard to understand? Parker knows full well if you get pay parity, you'll NEVER show up at the bargaining table. Hell, you really haven't made an effort to bargain in good faith yet because USAPA knows full well a joint contract WILL include the Nic and the leadership will get lynched after running on a DOH promise. The East, West, and company all agreed to a process. The company and the West have stuck to it so far but the East keeps trying to take their dollies and go home.

Remember the APA sick-out a few years back, No, I do. Case in point. APA did not want AMR to run RENO-AIR as an alter-ego airline within the American system. APA demanded that the Reno pilots be immediately placed on the current PAY rates and work rules of their existing contract.

AA/RENO was apples to our oranges. APA demanded that Reno be placed at current works and pay because they had nothing to lose. Reno was gonna get stapled and everybody knew it. Are you suggesting that you'd be willing to be stapled on the bottom of the West list to get West pay and work rules? Of course not. Face it, USAPA lied to you. You didn't have the upper hand during the "merger". Unlike AA/Reno, USAPA can't pressure the company to do ANYTHING.

And yet you sit here and bash USAPA for its existence.. How about enlightening ALL of US why "The West" now operates 24% of east routes...
Oh wait I have the answer, USAPA won a minimum block hr. grievance for the West!! Although the Vegas domicile NO LONGER EXISTS, the WEST has evaded disastrous downsizing by taking EAST flying!!

And now YOU want EAST bases?....... What are YOU implying??

So, smart guy, if the West STOLE 24% of the East flying as you continually imply, why didn't the East have to furlough 24% of it's pilots? You're right, Vegas no longer exists as a crew base, but what about DCA and LGA? Gone. Pilot hubs on both sides were reduced and pilots were re-allocated. If the East didn't furlough 24% to compensate for all the "theft", where did everybody go? They took a bunch of West flying and started operating NEW flying! Wow, what a concept.

As far as WANTING East bases? I only offered a scenario that would allow the East to remain stand alone, as seems to be your wish. Eventually, your coveted attrition would leave the East bases understaffed and I suggested a method to keep that from happening.

I don't want the West pilots operating an East base, I want USAPA to quit stalling and get a damn contract, as is their obligation, while living up to their other obligations. Yeah, that's right, the Nic. West pilots have met their obligations (*admittedly, often begrudgingly, such as paying dues to a union that sues West pilots and fails to bargain in good faith). Start living up to East obligations anytime. Anytime would be great.

 

[doh]

All we're entitled to is the Nicolau list. And your wives and daughters. Just kidding about that last part. No I wasn't. Yeah I was. Oh, I don't know. Pass them over and then I'll decide. If they're pretty I make no promises.

I almost started to laugh, but then I realized how old the most junior east is. Even their daughters have to be in their forties! After I thought about it, I threw up in my mouth a little. uke:

 

[Metrojet]

Riiiiiiight. Or everyone can follow the East entitlement plan of "return from furlough to the left seat in Phoenix, and then make pretty much ALL West pilots furlough fodder". THAT"mindset" is what got USAir pilots (*the NEW USAir, in case you forgot) to where they are now.

Nic award. No fences. The West pilots accept that far more commuting Easties will go West that the other way around. It is going to slow upgrades down in Phoenix and create openings in the Philly. I think you'd be surprised at how many West people won't find commuting there a viable choice, but why accept some bogus fence when Nic already settled the dispute?

Entitlement from the East? How about the entitlement from the West? All the Westies think that we furloughed out of order - since if we used your methodology - then no pilots from the west would be on the street (with your second biggest crew base LAS shut down) and pilots on the east who never wanted to be based out west would have been on the street!

If thats not entitlement - please explain to me how I am wrong?, especially since we are on seperate contracts (or) not just for pay but reductions in flying.

At let me close by saying - I don't want anyone (west or east) to experience a furlough and m glad for the recalls that were announced today.

Metrojet

 

[B-atch]

As far as WANTING East bases? I only offered a scenario that would allow the East to remain stand alone, as seems to be your wish. Eventually, your coveted attrition would leave the East bases understaffed and I suggested a method to keep that from happening.
.

Sounds like rationalization to me...If given the opportunity, the West would move in to OUR bases without remorse..

It has looong been said ( I'm sorry only 1 O in long) that a fair airline merger is one in which BOTH SIDES are equally pissed. If the Nic award is not a windfall for the WEST, Then why defend it at ALL COST?

It seems to me that the economic HOLE that the AOL group has dug for itself is fairly substantial. Why defend the NIC? if not for its LONG TERM rewards...