Seniority dispute ends at US Airways

[TWA Dude]

But as long as the East sticks with the "gold Standard" and the West sticks with "NIC or bust" nothing will get accomplished.

You mean not until a court ruling finally settles it. The company's complaint for declaratory judgment aims to do just that.

As I have said before there must be middle ground.

Why must there be a middle ground? Under ALPA we were two sides negotiating as equals. Now the West is a minority where the majority intends to impose a list favorable to them. There is no middle ground because the majority doesn't want there to be any. The USAPA-conceived list is favorable to the East and no C&Rs can alter the fact that it makes the West their furlough-fodder.

When you say the West should compromise what you're really saying is the West should concede. I guess if it weren't for contract law and the RLA being on our side perhaps we would. The DFR trial proved to everybody except Lee $eham that USAPA does NOT have the right to impose a list of their choosing on us. And it doesn't matter that you disagree because Parker and his lawyers see a second DFR trial as a likelihood.

 

[MCDU]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN5B9tKaB8I&feature=youtube_gdata

Watch this starting at around 3:20. A little reality check about AWA which Nic totally missed.

M

 

[eaglesview]

Why must there be a middle ground? Under ALPA we were two sides negotiating as equals. Now the West is a minority where the majority intends to impose a list favorable to them. There is no middle ground because the majority doesn't want there to be any. The USAPA-conceived list is favorable to the East and no C&Rs can alter the fact that it makes the West their furlough-fodder.

.

There has to be a middle ground because the two "solutions" are both rediculous. I can't imagine what a day of work will be like their without a compromise.

As for furlough fodder, give me a break. Are you even remotley aware of the retirement rate the East will have when 65 kicks in. If the company is furloughing at that point there are much bigger issues.

 

[MCDU]

As for furlough fodder, give me a break. Are you even remotly aware of the retirement rate the East will have when 65 kicks in. If the company is furloughing at that point there are much bigger issues.[/QUOTE]


Exactly, very good point. Spot on.

M

 

[TWA Dude]

There has to be a middle ground because the two "solutions" are both rediculous.

There are judges and courts for a reason. There's no room for middle ground when you have $eham's "tyranny of the majority".
edit: you may not have watched the video but during USAPA's election campaign road show in PHX Lee $eham actually said that democracy is "tyranny of the majority". That's why we repeat it so often.

I can't imagine what a day of work will be like their without a compromise.

Watch a few hours of Court TV. Or better yet, my favorite, Judge Judy. That lady rocks.

As for furlough fodder, give me a break. Are you even remotley aware of the retirement rate the East will have when 65 kicks in.

Non sequitur. Who cares what the future retirement rate is if you're getting furloughed?
I will not give you a break especially since you're not even affected by this. And BTW, the East overstates their retirements. 50% of the list will not be gone in five years or whatever. We can count.

If the company is furloughing at that point there are much bigger issues.

Well, I guess you're not so keen on planning for contingencies. We are. Don't forget that AA stapled 2/3 of the TWA pilots just before AA furloughed 3000 pilots. Furlough fodder.
Nicolau recognized that future considerations such as retirements weren't as significant as immediate considerations. And remember, the East had/has far more to gain from the merger than the West.

 

[becket]

Trying to defend why a 2005 hire should be able to fill those East positions ahead of 1988 DOH is a non starter and will not happen.

M

Sorry to tell you this but your "non starter" ended 3 years ago. The process is done. LOA 93 until retirement, or live up to their agreements. Those are the only 2 choices that remain. This intentional obfuscation of the meaning of longevity and seniority hasn't fooled anybody. This half truth might carry some weight with a completely uninformed civilian but those of us in the Industry see right through that B.S.. So did the Jury.

The next Jury will as well...assuming it gets that far. If the company is going to be held liable, (which there is no reason why they WOULDN'T be) This whole thing is over. The company is not going to offer their necks to Leonidas on behalf of the poor downtrodden Easties.

It boggles the mind at how much money the USAPA experiment/organized crime attempt has cost the pilots of US Airways. I'd bet it's approaching close to a BILLION dollars in lost wages and work rules. Well done.

 

[becket]

Let's talk growth when the East is back to 415 planes ok.

M

Geez you guys have a knack for living in the past! US Air had that many airplanes over a DECADE ago. Times change! If you want to go see where all those planes Went, hop on a Jet to the Mojave Desert where you can see literally hundreds of US Airways Jets...F100's black top 737/400's the entire red Metrojet fleet, silver DC-9's and MD-80's. Their all there in the scrapheap.


You guys really need to get a grip on the current reality. The old US Airways is dead. You're LUCKY to have a new lease on life with this abortion of a merger. The East is the ONLY party to gain Anything out of this. The West was doing just fine until Dougweiser decided to strap the East A.K.A. The Anchor Of Death around the necks of all America West Employees.

 

[Cowboy75]

These are very interesting comments from an East pilot. No wonder USAPA does not have a message board.


"Don’t like the message, kill the messenger."
This is the exact reason pilots do not participate in Forums or do not post their name on websites. I have been extremely active over the years and I put my name on everything I publish. Because I do so I have been threatened with emails, I have company materials removed from my work mailbox, my name written on bathroom walls, I have had my mailbox stolen, my kid's school address and Mapquest directions/Map placed on the Yahoo LCC forum threatening child abduction, and they make harrassing phone calls to my home.

I know for fact the Union Hardliner Leaders (UHLs) misrepresent information, mislead people, and flat out lie. And, if you oppose them they resort to intimidation with the actions I listed above. How do I know this? All of these actions occurred to me because I publicly and aggressively fight the UHLs.

In fact, one of their supporters spit in my face on Friday.

Many people will not bare their sole in public in a Forum or on a Website, but they want their message heard. That's why these Forums like Unfactualbias, Pilotloop, Usaviation, USAPAWATCH, and Unbiased Facts are run by anonymous people (the two best websites with factual information are USAPAWATCH and Unbiased Facts). They're not being cowards as alleged by USAPA's supporters, they're simply protecting them self and their families.

I have a deep, deep disdain for the East UHLs who were in charge of the East ALPA MEC during every major failure the East pilot group has sustained and oppose every action by management.

US Airways management twice offered to freeze the East Pilot DB Plan and against the advice of every ALPA and R&I Committee member by "roll call" the UHL controlled MEC said "no" -- now USAPA has created a $45 per month assessment for 18 months in an investigation the PHX Reps said could take 3 years and cost East pilots $1,620. US Airways pilots are throwing money away on the PIC Investigation wild goose chase.

At the beginning of LOA 93 negotiations management offered the NC the America West pilot group contract and JetBlue work rules. Mike Abram the MEC to counter with 85% to 90% of the company's offer and you will get a TA. What Happened? The UHLs were in charge of the East MEC by a 4-8 "roll call" vote and used over 50 "roll call" votes against the desires of every MEC Officer, against the desires of 8 or 12 MEC members, and against the advice of every ALPA Legal and Financial Advisor to become the first MEC or Union Leadership Body to provide management a concession greater than the "ask" for LOA 93.

The UHLs were in charge of the East MEC by a 4-8 "roll call" vote and went against the advice of the Merger Committee, every Merger Advisor, and George Nicolau, which lead to the Nicolau Award used for the AWA-AAA pilot seniority integration.

The UHLs created USAPA.

The UHLs lead the Rico Lawsuit, reneged on the seniority integration promise to the West pilots, and violated the Transition Agreement requirement to accept the Nicolau Award.

The UHLs are dishonest, they harass people, and so do many of their supporters who believe the crap published by the UHLs - who are the highest paid pilots are US Airways. How ironic it is that the UHLs are the highest paid pilots while we suffer in this current pilot "civil war". Yes I fully understand why these websites are anonymous.

There is no pilot who cares about this company, this pilot group, other company employees, and our customers than me. What bothers me is how pilots can support the UHLs and be so uninformed on what truly happens inside the Union, Again, the problem is not ALPA or USAPA, the problem is the UHLs and the pilots who elect/support them.

 

[BeCareful!]

Those comments actually aren't that interesting. They are the spin of a guy likely based in CLT who thinks he understands what a union hardliner is. In reality, the old "UHL's" as he refers to them, did not create USAPA, nor are they running it. The old hardliners from the awful days of ALPA never really were all that hard. They were political poop throwers who accomplished nothing. They, along with the Give-Away-Gang have been removed from power and forced to fly the line under the abysmal triple dip concessionary contract they "negotiated."

 

[BeCareful!]

The West was doing just fine until Dougweiser decided to strap the East A.K.A. The Anchor Of Death around the necks of all America West Employees.

Not according to Doug Parker, Scott Kirby, and several other people way above your pay grade. Does saying this over and over again make you feel better?