Scab Stories

[Boeingman]

My dad didn't cross the line..

How did Dad feel watching his loyal ALPA brethren at Delta trip over themselves to pick up additional flying in ATL when Eastern was on strike? Or maybe he was LGA or BOS based and he enjoyed watching the loyal ALPA USAir pilots grabbing an additional windfall of flying?

I know how I felt watching the Eastern guys racing across our lines in IAH picking up our loss of revenue when Eastern had a crew base there. Was your father one of those loyal ALPA members picking up our lost flying back then?

Speaking of dear old Dad...was he one of the Eastern guys instrumental in keeping the Braniff pilots off the EAL seniority list when Eastern aquired all those South AMerican Braniff routes? Funny how that came full circle to bite many of us at CAL as almost all the original scabs in early 83 were disgruntled ex-ALPA Braniff pilots.

I was a young kid when Eastern happened, but I have learned alot from the people who were involved..

You sound like you still have a lot to learn.

Scabs are worthless....

As is ALPA and the facade of a brotherhood within the ranks. Hold your comments kid. I spent 25 months on a picket line.

 

[GVFlyer]

Scab or not a scab - over time I don't see where it makes much difference. Continental seems to be doing pretty well, but there was a time when it was viewed as a scab airline. I can remember when guys leaving my service to go to CAL were admonished, "it'll be the last airline you ever work for."

When Charlie Bryant killed Eastern Airlines over a IAM salary that was in the middle of the legacy mechanic pay scales, the pilots formed two airlines: Kiwi and Valujet. The union guys put up $50,000 and went to work for Kiwi; the scabs went to Valuejet. Kiwi is no longer around, Valuejet is AirTran.

I'm having a hard time seeing the value of unions in aviation. We have three former TWA flight attendants on staff, they tell me that 100% of the TWA flight attendants are gone from American and I know pilots with 17 years at TWA who are on the street because they weren't quite senior enough to be merged and subsequently were stapled to the bottom of the American seniority list.

The unions seem to be unable to preserve pay, benefits and pensions at places like United and US Air. We hired a furloughed US Air pilot; he says it looks like the most senior pilot there is going to make about $125k and get about $28K a year from his pension as opposed to the $98K he was promised.

I researched pre-deregulation pay scales - back when there was a Civil Aeronautics board. In 1978, the most senior captains at PanAm were making $175,000 dollars and were working about 14 days a month. That would be over $900k in today's dollars and everyone knows what today's duty rigs are like. So, there has been a constant erosion of pay, benefits and quality of life at the airlines.

I don't know what the answer is - anymore than I know what career recommendations to make to a young aviator other than that the best flying in the world happens in the military, this is just an observation.


GV

 

[ultrarunner]

I researched pre-deregulation pay scales - back when there was a Civil Aeronautics board. In 1978, the most senior captains at PanAm were making $175,000 dollars and were working about 14 days a month. That would be over $900k in today's dollars and everyone knows what today's duty rigs are like. So, there has been a constant erosion of pay, benefits and quality of life at the airlines.

There is a continuous eroding of union membership nationwide. It's very easy for ALPA pilot groups to hold management hostage when times are good, i.e, pay scales at DAL and UAL before things went down hill.

But when the chips are down, I agree with GV, ALPA has show that it has very little power to retain jobs and QOL among it's ranks.

However, I don't belive internal ALPA management salaries have suffered at all, have they?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

 

[TR4A]

Speaking of dear old Dad...was he one of the Eastern guys instrumental in keeping the Braniff pilots off the EAL seniority list when Eastern acquired all those South American Braniff routes? Funny how that came full circle to bite many of us at CAL as almost all the original scabs in early 83 were disgruntled ex-ALPA Braniff pilots.

The South American (SA) routes were originally Grace Airways which was bought by Pan Am. Pan Am rename it PANAGRA (Pan American Grace Airways). Pan Am was force to sell PANAGRA because the US government said PA had a monopoly on SA. PA sold them to Braniff.

In 1982 when Braniff failed they sold them to Eastern. The Braniff pilots said that the pilots should go with the routes. Eastern guys told them no. The didn't even want them on the bottom of their seniority list.

When Eastern failed they sold them to American. Eastern pilots said the pilots should go with the routes. They were told: REMEMBER BRANIFF!

 

[Tram]

Wow Boeingman, did I hit a nerve?

How did Dad feel watching his loyal ALPA brethren at Delta trip over themselves to pick up additional flying in ATL when Eastern was on strike?

Good question, I'll find out for you..

I know how I felt watching the Eastern guys racing across our lines in IAH picking up our loss of revenue when Eastern had a crew base there. Was your father one of those loyal ALPA members picking up our lost flying back then?

If they were pilots out of IAH picking up the routes - nope, sorry dear old Dad wasn't one of them..

Speaking of dear old Dad...was he one of the Eastern guys instrumental in keeping the Braniff pilots off the EAL seniority list when Eastern aquired all those South AMerican Braniff routes?

Speaking of dear old Dad, it's funny - the way you treat me, is the exact reaction that is typically evoked from him - when scabs are mentioned, again, you sound like a scab.. Why else would you have an issue with my stand on scabs?

As far as the Braniff pilots on the seniority list - didn't do any SA flying with Eastern, so I wouldn't see why he kept any Braniff pilots off the SA routes senority lists..

You sound like you still have a lot to learn.

You are correct, I have LOTS to learn.. Juding from your comments, it sounds to me as if you were once a scab and I just learned a little more about you and your type. I mean, if not a scab - but defending them - I dunno what is worse.

I spent 25 months on a picket line.

Yeh, my dad spent about the same amount of time from the time of the strike until Eastern was belly up.. You spent 25 months on the picket line and feel the need to berate me for having an opinion on the worth of scabs? Something doesn't mesh..

I really don't know what your trying to get at.. Some of your points, sound like you would be against the whole idea of a scab, yet you feel the need to speak down to me on my opinion of them?

Oh, how about the senority list at the airline your at? I guess if your sitting left seat in a 76' and you guys aquired some airline - you would be first in line to make sure that other airlines guys who were senior to you were put in the proper place with your airline? Why, i'm sure you'd even downgrade in both equipment and seats to make sure that happened, wouldn't you?

 

[Tram]

In the early 60s EAL had another strike. The FEIA represented PFEs at the time ALPA claimed that all jet aircraft should have three pilots, for safety. Reality was that it was a jobs issue. FEIA went out on strike and ALPA broke the strike. The EAL CEO, Captain Eddie, issued an ultimatum, come back to work or you will never return. The PFEs that crossed the FEIA picket line were put on the pilot seniority list and had their pilot training paid for by the company, and most retired as EAL Captains. The FEs that honored the strike were locked out. Some of the lucky FEs were hired by Seaboard World Airlines, later bought by Tigers, bought by FedEx. Most of the others bounced around the nonskeds such as Universal, Saturn, TIA, Capitol and others. The last former striker EAL FE retired as a DC10 S/O at FedEx around 5 years ago.

Were the FEs that crossed the FEIA picket line Scabs? Were the EAL pilots that crossed the FEIA picket line Scabs? Were the pilots hired to replace the PFEs Scabs? Where does your dad fit into this?

Perhaps I have been "mislead" on the worth of scabs.. I only know of scabs of what I was witness to when I was a younger kid.. I saw/heard/watched what my dad, uncle and all the guys they picketted with thought of scabs, I have always been told scabs are worthless - and from all the scabs I have met, most of them are - with the exception of a few.. I know a scab who is a great guy..

My dad was not hired at Eastern until the early 80's.. I believe 81.. Dad worked at Eastern until Lorenzo dismantled it. During the strike he made his coin working at a paper mill - as a painter.

After Eastern my dad got on with FedEx, where he still sits today.

All I know is this - if the company I work for is on strike, I am not going to screw my brothers at that airline and work anyway.. It's just not how I was raised.. Like me or hate me, that's the way I am..

Just curious - are any of you guys who are all up in arms over my comments - not previous scabs?

 

[FoxHunter]

All I know is this - if the company I work for is on strike, I am not going to screw my brothers at that airline and work anyway.. It's just not how I was raised.. Like me or hate me, that's the way I am..

Just curious - are any of you guys who are all up in arms over my comments - not previous scabs?

Sorry you just don't get it. Those striking FEs at EAL considered all the pilots that replaced them Scabs. That would also include your father. I would differ with that opinion and just call it a battle between two unions. That FEIA strike was never settled.

I've been on strike twice with ALPA, both short and both successful.

 

[Tram]

Maybe I don't get it.. That is quite possible.. I am still a struggling CFI trying to get "into" the business..

Ok, so when my dad went to work for Eastern there was a strike going on from the 60's, thus making my father a scab? Is that what your saying?

I guess my thinking of a scab from what I've expirenced is a guy who willingly walks across a pickett line during a strike.. I still think people who do this are worthless.. It's about the same as some of the pay for training outfits..

 

[Boeingman]

I am just as disgusted at ALPA

Tram, you don't get it. Your thinly veiled thoughts of me are a laugh a minute. Reread the post and ask yourself about my back ground. Here is a hint. My ALPA pin has a star on the top of it. Not that I wear the thing anymore though.

My point is, and you don't get it, there are those within ALPA that have done just as much, if not more damage to this profession as a scab. If you think I am defending scabs you're wrong. I am telling you that wearing that nifty pin, getting the glossy magazine and carry that card does not indemnify the actions of those within the "brotherhood" for past sins amongst their peers. Including Pop.

Why am I testy? Like I said sonny, I watched a bunch of your fathers fellow pilots pick up a lot of additional flying during our strike which really hurt our cause. So yes, I think there are those out there that have done just as heinous things as scabs have done to our profession. In fact it is even worse since we are supposed to be dealing with an organized union labor force.

It is comical to listen to some youngster know it all think that dear old Dad sits up on a pedestal, when in fact his old pilot group and others within the union have pulled just as many low life stunts as a scab in their history with their carriers.

You're a fool if you think ALPA or individual ALPA pilot groups has less skeletons in their closet then those on the scab list. Ask yourself a question: Why are so many scabs former ALPA members?

Nice evasion of the direct questions by the way.

BTW, as for your merger question, I would follow and agree to ALPA merger policy. A lot more than your father's peers agreed to.

 

[Boeingman]

The South American (SA) routes were originally Grace Airways which was bought by Pan Am. Pan Am rename it PANAGRA (Pan American Grace Airways). Pan Am was force to sell PANAGRA because the US government said PA had a monopoly on SA. PA sold them to Braniff.

In 1982 when Braniff failed they sold them to Eastern. The Braniff pilots said that the pilots should go with the routes. Eastern guys told them no. The didn't even want them on the bottom of their seniority list.

When Eastern failed they sold them to American. Eastern pilots said the pilots should go with the routes. They were told: REMEMBER BRANIFF!

Just like the USAir pilots told Eastern guys to pound sand when U bought a bunch of Eastern assets. Many of those within U at the time were ex Braniff.

You just got to love the unity within the ALPA brotherhood.

 

[Tram]

Boeingman- I had a great reply all typed up and the computer didn't accept it.. Perhaps it a "sign" that says "hey, your wasting your time."

I will give you a few highlights from it and let this die.

1.) I don't know what your deal with me and alpa is, I never said a word about alpa.. I verbalised an opinion of mine on scabs and you flew all over me.

2.) My dad is on a pedestal - to me.. Maybe me and me alone, but my dad is a superb human being, many people have "hero's." My dad is mine.. You know nothing of the man and I find it laughable that you attempt to belittle my father to me, a man you don't even know through an internet forum, says a lil' sumpin sumpin about your character..

3.) I bet you introduce yourself as "Captain So and So" don't you? I also bet that you are the "Captain" that everyone hates to see on thier trip list.. You obviously have some ego issue's, I bet the FO's just love you..

4.) I never claimed to be a know it all, as I am not, I have lots to learn - what I cannot understand is how you claim to not defend scabs yet berate me when I just offer up my OPINION (and you know what they are like.. be it mine or yours) and you feel the need to "teach me a lesson." You did however affirm something for me - there are Captains out there that let the title go to their heads.. Captains deserve respect as they have "been there, done that", but it's "Captains" like you that give Airline Captains the typical over inflated cranium stereotype.. Seems to me that I have figured out what your looking for and I'll go ahead and give it to you.. You fly a 767.. Congrats...

 

[100LL... Again!]

What you have to realize is that the real world is not so simple as the scabs-are-bad mantra suggests.

Let me suggest a scenario:

Suppose that an airline has hundreds of pilots on furlough.
Suppose that the airline is going to declare BK, and the pensions will be eliminated.

Now, suppose that management offers the senior pilots a deal - Senior guys keep their pensions, but the furloughees will return to a 401k-only contract. And a B-scale pay arrangement.

Suppose the senior guys take the deal, screwing the furloughed pilots out of a pension, while keeping their own.

A few years later, the pilots go on strike.

NOW how would you feel about scabbing when these are your union 'brothers'?
Of course, this is hypothetical, but it illustrates a point.
You only owe loyalty to those who are going to return it.

 

[Tram]

Personally, I still wouldn't cross the picket line...

If I did cross, seems like that once the strike was settled, I'd be the first to get tossed when they brought back the pilots who went on strike in the first place..

 

[100LL... Again!]

I think you mistook the intent of the previous poster.

If I understand correctly, he was saying that the striking FE's considered ANYONE who took a job even as a pilot as a scab (since they went on the seniority list).

This union brotherhood thing is total crap. It is now merely a talking point, a dogma.

The lack of a real national union and seniority list makes it too easy to divide the various airline pilot groups, even various factions at one airline. We have lots of little fiefdoms, and a lot of greed and entitlement attitudes. No group is really willing to stick their necks out too far for the pilots at another carrier. Look at all of the mainline pilots that would be thrilled to see a competitor go out of business. Especially if it meant more flying for them and a larger aircraft or an upgrade.

We will NEVER have a national union. It is simply too late.
No one will be willing to sacrifice pay or negotiating capital to protect someone else's position.

Instead, here is what WILL happen:

Each group will play defense as best as it can, while accusing anyone that accepts even a dollar less of dragging down the profession.

Until they have to take another cut. THEN the argument will be that why should we lose our jobs to save yours.


Personally, I do think it is unfortunate when people lose jobs.

That said, the unmitigated arrogance, greed, and stupidity of pilot unions in general makes it hard to be sympathetic. After a while, if someone keeps putting their own finger in the pencil sharpener, you have to quit caring. Even if they are too stupid to realize that they are only hurting themselves.

I hope every single airline goes bankrupt, and we start all over from scratch. And I am not kidding.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman-

I had a great reply all typed up and the computer didn't accept it.. Perhaps it a "sign" that says "hey, your wasting your time."

I will give you a few highlights from it and let this die.

Good. Come back and discuss industry events when you mature a bit instead of living through them vicariously through your father. What you don’t seem to realize is there are those of us that view die hard ALPA attitudes and scabs with equal disdain. Obviously I tried to offer a different point of view that still is lost upon you.

I don't know what your deal with me and alpa is, I never said a word about alpa.. I verbalised an opinion of mine on scabs and you flew all over me. "

You didn’t have to say a word abut ALPA sonny. When you talk about the scab issue on an airline board it goes hand in hand with ALPA. Or were you discussing the fruit pickers union and some labor dispute over there? Some cocksure CFI harping about airline labor issues is a joke in itself. Personally, I don’t give a hoot about you, your father, or any of the losers at Eastern that torpedoed others within the industry.

2.) My dad is on a pedestal - to me.. Maybe me and me alone, but my dad is a superb human being, many people have "hero's." My dad is mine.. You know nothing of the man and I find it laughable that you attempt to belittle my father to me, a man you don't even know through an internet forum, says a lil' sumpin sumpin about your character..

Did I say "Mr. Tram" and personalize your Dad? No, I reffered to those in his pilot group. Judging by the comments you made about him I could easily see the stereotype and such a perfect fit. A lot of hot air about ALPA while those of his ilk stabbed their fellow pilots in the back at some point in his/their career. I already gave you examples of backstabbing which perhaps you don't remember since you were of diaper age at the time.

My guess he was part of the seniority lawsuit against CAL as well right?

3.) I bet you introduce yourself as "Captain So and So" don't you? I also bet that you are the "Captain" that everyone hates to see on thier trip list.. You obviously have some ego issue's, I bet the FO's just love you.. "

So are we to assume this is a "lil' sumpin sumpin about your character." with your assumptions about my attitude towards my job and career? What is that saying? Pot calling the kettle black. Ego issues? LMAO, my F/O’s always bid to fly with me, none of my trips end up in open time due to "personality issues", I see the same faces over and over in the right seat, none of my mail is addressed as "Captain"...shall I continue? Do I care what you think? Nope. But go ahead and believe this if you want, it will help you rationalize how those like your father may not be looked upon by others with stars in their eyes as you do. In at least from an airline history viewpoint.

4.) I never claimed to be a know it all, as I am not, I have lots to learn - what I cannot understand is how you claim to not defend scabs yet berate me when I just offer up my OPINION (and you know what they are like.. be it mine or yours) and you feel the need to "teach me a lesson." You did however affirm something for me - there are Captains out there that let the title go to their heads..

WTF does being a Captain have anything to do with this discussion? While you may not claim to be a know it all, you sure come across as one. Please highlight where I brought this "Captain" title into the equation. Now I know you are grasping but comments like this not only make you look immature, but desperate as well.

"Teach you a lesson"? Perhaps you need to grow a thicker set of skin. Sorry pal if my opinion about union/scab/labor issues and you or your Dad’s don’t jive. Well not really.

Captains deserve respect as they have "been there, done that", but it's "Captains" like you that give Airline Captains the typical over inflated cranium stereotype.. Seems to me that I have figured out what your looking for and I'll go ahead and give it to you.. You fly a 767.. Congrats...

There you go again with this Captain fetish, but whatever you think is fine by me. I guess we just are seeing a little more of this ""lil' sumpin about your character." with these continuing assumptions. Incidently you know nothng of me either.

Enjoy your aviation career. I sense it will be a very short one.