Scab Stories

[Tram]

In the early 60s EAL had another strike. The FEIA represented PFEs at the time ALPA claimed that all jet aircraft should have three pilots, for safety. Reality was that it was a jobs issue. FEIA went out on strike and ALPA broke the strike. The EAL CEO, Captain Eddie, issued an ultimatum, come back to work or you will never return. The PFEs that crossed the FEIA picket line were put on the pilot seniority list and had their pilot training paid for by the company, and most retired as EAL Captains. The FEs that honored the strike were locked out. Some of the lucky FEs were hired by Seaboard World Airlines, later bought by Tigers, bought by FedEx. Most of the others bounced around the nonskeds such as Universal, Saturn, TIA, Capitol and others. The last former striker EAL FE retired as a DC10 S/O at FedEx around 5 years ago.

Were the FEs that crossed the FEIA picket line Scabs? Were the EAL pilots that crossed the FEIA picket line Scabs? Were the pilots hired to replace the PFEs Scabs? Where does your dad fit into this?

Perhaps I have been "mislead" on the worth of scabs.. I only know of scabs of what I was witness to when I was a younger kid.. I saw/heard/watched what my dad, uncle and all the guys they picketted with thought of scabs, I have always been told scabs are worthless - and from all the scabs I have met, most of them are - with the exception of a few.. I know a scab who is a great guy..

My dad was not hired at Eastern until the early 80's.. I believe 81.. Dad worked at Eastern until Lorenzo dismantled it. During the strike he made his coin working at a paper mill - as a painter.

After Eastern my dad got on with FedEx, where he still sits today.

All I know is this - if the company I work for is on strike, I am not going to screw my brothers at that airline and work anyway.. It's just not how I was raised.. Like me or hate me, that's the way I am..

Just curious - are any of you guys who are all up in arms over my comments - not previous scabs?

 

[FoxHunter]

All I know is this - if the company I work for is on strike, I am not going to screw my brothers at that airline and work anyway.. It's just not how I was raised.. Like me or hate me, that's the way I am..

Just curious - are any of you guys who are all up in arms over my comments - not previous scabs?

Sorry you just don't get it. Those striking FEs at EAL considered all the pilots that replaced them Scabs. That would also include your father. I would differ with that opinion and just call it a battle between two unions. That FEIA strike was never settled.

I've been on strike twice with ALPA, both short and both successful.

 

[Tram]

Maybe I don't get it.. That is quite possible.. I am still a struggling CFI trying to get "into" the business..

Ok, so when my dad went to work for Eastern there was a strike going on from the 60's, thus making my father a scab? Is that what your saying?

I guess my thinking of a scab from what I've expirenced is a guy who willingly walks across a pickett line during a strike.. I still think people who do this are worthless.. It's about the same as some of the pay for training outfits..

 

[Boeingman]

I am just as disgusted at ALPA

Tram, you don't get it. Your thinly veiled thoughts of me are a laugh a minute. Reread the post and ask yourself about my back ground. Here is a hint. My ALPA pin has a star on the top of it. Not that I wear the thing anymore though.

My point is, and you don't get it, there are those within ALPA that have done just as much, if not more damage to this profession as a scab. If you think I am defending scabs you're wrong. I am telling you that wearing that nifty pin, getting the glossy magazine and carry that card does not indemnify the actions of those within the "brotherhood" for past sins amongst their peers. Including Pop.

Why am I testy? Like I said sonny, I watched a bunch of your fathers fellow pilots pick up a lot of additional flying during our strike which really hurt our cause. So yes, I think there are those out there that have done just as heinous things as scabs have done to our profession. In fact it is even worse since we are supposed to be dealing with an organized union labor force.

It is comical to listen to some youngster know it all think that dear old Dad sits up on a pedestal, when in fact his old pilot group and others within the union have pulled just as many low life stunts as a scab in their history with their carriers.

You're a fool if you think ALPA or individual ALPA pilot groups has less skeletons in their closet then those on the scab list. Ask yourself a question: Why are so many scabs former ALPA members?

Nice evasion of the direct questions by the way.

BTW, as for your merger question, I would follow and agree to ALPA merger policy. A lot more than your father's peers agreed to.

 

[Boeingman]

The South American (SA) routes were originally Grace Airways which was bought by Pan Am. Pan Am rename it PANAGRA (Pan American Grace Airways). Pan Am was force to sell PANAGRA because the US government said PA had a monopoly on SA. PA sold them to Braniff.

In 1982 when Braniff failed they sold them to Eastern. The Braniff pilots said that the pilots should go with the routes. Eastern guys told them no. The didn't even want them on the bottom of their seniority list.

When Eastern failed they sold them to American. Eastern pilots said the pilots should go with the routes. They were told: REMEMBER BRANIFF!

Just like the USAir pilots told Eastern guys to pound sand when U bought a bunch of Eastern assets. Many of those within U at the time were ex Braniff.

You just got to love the unity within the ALPA brotherhood.

 

[Tram]

Boeingman- I had a great reply all typed up and the computer didn't accept it.. Perhaps it a "sign" that says "hey, your wasting your time."

I will give you a few highlights from it and let this die.

1.) I don't know what your deal with me and alpa is, I never said a word about alpa.. I verbalised an opinion of mine on scabs and you flew all over me.

2.) My dad is on a pedestal - to me.. Maybe me and me alone, but my dad is a superb human being, many people have "hero's." My dad is mine.. You know nothing of the man and I find it laughable that you attempt to belittle my father to me, a man you don't even know through an internet forum, says a lil' sumpin sumpin about your character..

3.) I bet you introduce yourself as "Captain So and So" don't you? I also bet that you are the "Captain" that everyone hates to see on thier trip list.. You obviously have some ego issue's, I bet the FO's just love you..

4.) I never claimed to be a know it all, as I am not, I have lots to learn - what I cannot understand is how you claim to not defend scabs yet berate me when I just offer up my OPINION (and you know what they are like.. be it mine or yours) and you feel the need to "teach me a lesson." You did however affirm something for me - there are Captains out there that let the title go to their heads.. Captains deserve respect as they have "been there, done that", but it's "Captains" like you that give Airline Captains the typical over inflated cranium stereotype.. Seems to me that I have figured out what your looking for and I'll go ahead and give it to you.. You fly a 767.. Congrats...

 

[100LL... Again!]

What you have to realize is that the real world is not so simple as the scabs-are-bad mantra suggests.

Let me suggest a scenario:

Suppose that an airline has hundreds of pilots on furlough.
Suppose that the airline is going to declare BK, and the pensions will be eliminated.

Now, suppose that management offers the senior pilots a deal - Senior guys keep their pensions, but the furloughees will return to a 401k-only contract. And a B-scale pay arrangement.

Suppose the senior guys take the deal, screwing the furloughed pilots out of a pension, while keeping their own.

A few years later, the pilots go on strike.

NOW how would you feel about scabbing when these are your union 'brothers'?
Of course, this is hypothetical, but it illustrates a point.
You only owe loyalty to those who are going to return it.

 

[Tram]

Personally, I still wouldn't cross the picket line...

If I did cross, seems like that once the strike was settled, I'd be the first to get tossed when they brought back the pilots who went on strike in the first place..

 

[100LL... Again!]

I think you mistook the intent of the previous poster.

If I understand correctly, he was saying that the striking FE's considered ANYONE who took a job even as a pilot as a scab (since they went on the seniority list).

This union brotherhood thing is total crap. It is now merely a talking point, a dogma.

The lack of a real national union and seniority list makes it too easy to divide the various airline pilot groups, even various factions at one airline. We have lots of little fiefdoms, and a lot of greed and entitlement attitudes. No group is really willing to stick their necks out too far for the pilots at another carrier. Look at all of the mainline pilots that would be thrilled to see a competitor go out of business. Especially if it meant more flying for them and a larger aircraft or an upgrade.

We will NEVER have a national union. It is simply too late.
No one will be willing to sacrifice pay or negotiating capital to protect someone else's position.

Instead, here is what WILL happen:

Each group will play defense as best as it can, while accusing anyone that accepts even a dollar less of dragging down the profession.

Until they have to take another cut. THEN the argument will be that why should we lose our jobs to save yours.


Personally, I do think it is unfortunate when people lose jobs.

That said, the unmitigated arrogance, greed, and stupidity of pilot unions in general makes it hard to be sympathetic. After a while, if someone keeps putting their own finger in the pencil sharpener, you have to quit caring. Even if they are too stupid to realize that they are only hurting themselves.

I hope every single airline goes bankrupt, and we start all over from scratch. And I am not kidding.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman-

I had a great reply all typed up and the computer didn't accept it.. Perhaps it a "sign" that says "hey, your wasting your time."

I will give you a few highlights from it and let this die.

Good. Come back and discuss industry events when you mature a bit instead of living through them vicariously through your father. What you don’t seem to realize is there are those of us that view die hard ALPA attitudes and scabs with equal disdain. Obviously I tried to offer a different point of view that still is lost upon you.

I don't know what your deal with me and alpa is, I never said a word about alpa.. I verbalised an opinion of mine on scabs and you flew all over me. "

You didn’t have to say a word abut ALPA sonny. When you talk about the scab issue on an airline board it goes hand in hand with ALPA. Or were you discussing the fruit pickers union and some labor dispute over there? Some cocksure CFI harping about airline labor issues is a joke in itself. Personally, I don’t give a hoot about you, your father, or any of the losers at Eastern that torpedoed others within the industry.

2.) My dad is on a pedestal - to me.. Maybe me and me alone, but my dad is a superb human being, many people have "hero's." My dad is mine.. You know nothing of the man and I find it laughable that you attempt to belittle my father to me, a man you don't even know through an internet forum, says a lil' sumpin sumpin about your character..

Did I say "Mr. Tram" and personalize your Dad? No, I reffered to those in his pilot group. Judging by the comments you made about him I could easily see the stereotype and such a perfect fit. A lot of hot air about ALPA while those of his ilk stabbed their fellow pilots in the back at some point in his/their career. I already gave you examples of backstabbing which perhaps you don't remember since you were of diaper age at the time.

My guess he was part of the seniority lawsuit against CAL as well right?

3.) I bet you introduce yourself as "Captain So and So" don't you? I also bet that you are the "Captain" that everyone hates to see on thier trip list.. You obviously have some ego issue's, I bet the FO's just love you.. "

So are we to assume this is a "lil' sumpin sumpin about your character." with your assumptions about my attitude towards my job and career? What is that saying? Pot calling the kettle black. Ego issues? LMAO, my F/O’s always bid to fly with me, none of my trips end up in open time due to "personality issues", I see the same faces over and over in the right seat, none of my mail is addressed as "Captain"...shall I continue? Do I care what you think? Nope. But go ahead and believe this if you want, it will help you rationalize how those like your father may not be looked upon by others with stars in their eyes as you do. In at least from an airline history viewpoint.

4.) I never claimed to be a know it all, as I am not, I have lots to learn - what I cannot understand is how you claim to not defend scabs yet berate me when I just offer up my OPINION (and you know what they are like.. be it mine or yours) and you feel the need to "teach me a lesson." You did however affirm something for me - there are Captains out there that let the title go to their heads..

WTF does being a Captain have anything to do with this discussion? While you may not claim to be a know it all, you sure come across as one. Please highlight where I brought this "Captain" title into the equation. Now I know you are grasping but comments like this not only make you look immature, but desperate as well.

"Teach you a lesson"? Perhaps you need to grow a thicker set of skin. Sorry pal if my opinion about union/scab/labor issues and you or your Dad’s don’t jive. Well not really.

Captains deserve respect as they have "been there, done that", but it's "Captains" like you that give Airline Captains the typical over inflated cranium stereotype.. Seems to me that I have figured out what your looking for and I'll go ahead and give it to you.. You fly a 767.. Congrats...

There you go again with this Captain fetish, but whatever you think is fine by me. I guess we just are seeing a little more of this ""lil' sumpin about your character." with these continuing assumptions. Incidently you know nothng of me either.

Enjoy your aviation career. I sense it will be a very short one.

 

[Boeingman]

Tram just epitomizes the real problem in our industry. Nobody has thier own opinions anymore. Nobody will go out and educate themselves and form thier own views.

I think this generation of pilot is nothing but a group of followers.

Sad.

You know T-Gates... until you wrote that post, I couldn't figure out what had irritated me about this guy Tram. Reading what you wrote sums up perfectly the reason for my responses. Outstanding observation.

Boeingman, thanks for being one of my continually favorite posters. It's refreshing to see other opinions not of the normal Flightinfo variety.

Thank you.

 

[Tram]

My guess he was part of the seniority lawsuit against CAL as well right?

Your guess is wrong..

T-Gates - I tried to have an opinion..

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
An earlier post in this thread really hit the bottom line in this debate. ALPA, will NEVER be a national union for airline pilots. This is practically an absolute in my opinion. The only effective way to really have clout is to have a national union. So, this is why managment really has airline pilots by the proverbial short-hairs. My understanding of the "Scab" definition is either crossing a picket line or working struck work.
My biggest problem with the way the Scab-word is thrown around is examples of people flying struck work that belong to the same union. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't this occured before? And ALPA didn't act or comment on iota. Furthermore isn't this also a reason for companies like Go-Jets, UPS, AMR, etc... have unions like the Teamsters or an in-house union to get around that? Management probably would encourage even welcome ANY union on their property instead of ALPA for this reason.
Unlike the European truck drivers, pilots in the United States just don't have the ability to paralize the transportation system by a nation-wide strike over, say a small ALPA carrier Midwest. I don't think that the national leadership would encourage that type of "brotherhood". Take the Japanese pilots, they were going to ALL strike over having a third crewmember on flights over a certain length a couple of years ago. Guess who caved on that one? Not the pilots! You won't see that EVER in the USA.
I am not sure honestly where I stand on ALPA, and I just joined the union only because the cost to administer the contract just happens to be the same as our membership dues. I think that 99% of the rank and file, local MECs are all great people with the interests of the union and profession foremost in their actions. I don't necessarily feel the same toward the national leadership, because I don't know that they really care about anyone but the higher salaried pilots (more money, more dues, more votes to stay in office )

 

[Tram]

Boeingman - I was just curious as to what exactly I said that set you off on me? I am still trying to figure out exactly what I said..

I am not trying to ask in a beligerent way or anything of the sort.. It seems to me that there is some very bad blood between you and Eastern guysnand perhaps that is what set you off, other than that, I cannot think of anything else...

 

[Reebo]

I cringe at the fact that newbie Regional captains salivate at the prospect of kicking a scab off the jumpseat. I know people that are just waiting for it. Why would someone be that small?

Don't think that theese guys don't know what they did when they come and ask for your jumpseat. 15-20 years later you are not gonna change the world by kicking anyone off the jumpseat. 1/2 the people that I know that are all piss and vinegar about scabs were age 10 or younger in 1989 (Even younger when we are talking about CAL). Myself included. They just wanna do it because it's what the "big boys" do.

I guess you are refering to those in my position. I do carry a copy of the list. Only pulled it out once when a mainline guy was giving me attitude. But what would you like me to do? Just forget about the past and give these guys a free ride? I think I owe it to those who came before me to honor those who walked the line and punish those who chose to cross. Oh by the way, I was 24 and worked in the airline industry during the Eastern strike of 89.

 

[JohnnyCash]

Wow-

This thread has really brought some sharp emotions to the table.

I have an opinion. I understand what opinions are compared to. I will keep my opinions to myself (...your welcome).

100% IPA

 

[ATPRN]

Unions are outdated and usless. The only time I hear about them is when union members disrupt life for everyone else.

 

[Flechas]

I didn't read the whole thread, but thisis a reallystupid post dude, get over your self, hire a hooker and she'll tell youa nything youwant to hear, what a douche. I'm not saying scabs are good, but c'mon, get a life!

 

[Princedietrich]

Ok, this isn't a scab story but it's kinda sorta related.

Back in 2001 when Comair was on strike, I was working for a non-union 125/121 international operator at CVG as FE on a 72'. Here I was, on the job for little more than a month or so, still as green as they get, and every day to go to work I had to walk past the Comair picket line. It was scary to say the least.

Now for a bit of clarification, my airline did it's own thing entirely. They had one scheduled run to Cayman and everything else was vacation charter, so there wasn't anything being stolen from Comair by us.

Some of the looks I got from those Comair guys were just downright venomous, the thought of it still gives me the creeps. I could tell they were looking at me like I was just another worthless POS scab. It's not like I was stealing anything from them. I didn't even look like one of them, they had the black and gold Delta-style uniform while I had my blue and gray USAir-style uniform. It's very unnerving when you're just barely realizing you're finally an airline pilot and you were instructing in a beat up 172 not 3 months before.

Anyway, that's my story, for what it's worth.

 

[Snakum]

I didn't read the whole thread, but thisis a reallystupid post dude, get over your self, hire a hooker and she'll tell youa nything youwant to hear, what a douche. I'm not saying scabs are good, but c'mon, get a life!

As usual ... Flechas is the only person here making sense. Hookers rule!

For the original poster ... man, you sure got a lot of stuff figured out for have'n only 800 hours and probably 20 or so years of life on planet Earth.

Minhberg