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Scab Stories
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Hello,
An earlier post in this thread really hit the bottom line in this debate. ALPA, will NEVER be a national union for airline pilots. This is practically an absolute in my opinion. The only effective way to really have clout is to have a national union. So, this is why managment really has airline pilots by the proverbial short-hairs. My understanding of the "Scab" definition is either crossing a picket line or working struck work.
My biggest problem with the way the Scab-word is thrown around is examples of people flying struck work that belong to the same union. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't this occured before? And ALPA didn't act or comment on iota. Furthermore isn't this also a reason for companies like Go-Jets, UPS, AMR, etc... have unions like the Teamsters or an in-house union to get around that? Management probably would encourage even welcome ANY union on their property instead of ALPA for this reason.
Unlike the European truck drivers, pilots in the United States just don't have the ability to paralize the transportation system by a nation-wide strike over, say a small ALPA carrier Midwest. I don't think that the national leadership would encourage that type of "brotherhood". Take the Japanese pilots, they were going to ALL strike over having a third crewmember on flights over a certain length a couple of years ago. Guess who caved on that one? Not the pilots! You won't see that EVER in the USA.
I am not sure honestly where I stand on ALPA, and I just joined the union only because the cost to administer the contract just happens to be the same as our membership dues. I think that 99% of the rank and file, local MECs are all great people with the interests of the union and profession foremost in their actions. I don't necessarily feel the same toward the national leadership, because I don't know that they really care about anyone but the higher salaried pilots (more money, more dues, more votes to stay in office )
An earlier post in this thread really hit the bottom line in this debate. ALPA, will NEVER be a national union for airline pilots. This is practically an absolute in my opinion. The only effective way to really have clout is to have a national union. So, this is why managment really has airline pilots by the proverbial short-hairs. My understanding of the "Scab" definition is either crossing a picket line or working struck work.
My biggest problem with the way the Scab-word is thrown around is examples of people flying struck work that belong to the same union. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't this occured before? And ALPA didn't act or comment on iota. Furthermore isn't this also a reason for companies like Go-Jets, UPS, AMR, etc... have unions like the Teamsters or an in-house union to get around that? Management probably would encourage even welcome ANY union on their property instead of ALPA for this reason.
Unlike the European truck drivers, pilots in the United States just don't have the ability to paralize the transportation system by a nation-wide strike over, say a small ALPA carrier Midwest. I don't think that the national leadership would encourage that type of "brotherhood". Take the Japanese pilots, they were going to ALL strike over having a third crewmember on flights over a certain length a couple of years ago. Guess who caved on that one? Not the pilots! You won't see that EVER in the USA.
I am not sure honestly where I stand on ALPA, and I just joined the union only because the cost to administer the contract just happens to be the same as our membership dues. I think that 99% of the rank and file, local MECs are all great people with the interests of the union and profession foremost in their actions. I don't necessarily feel the same toward the national leadership, because I don't know that they really care about anyone but the higher salaried pilots (more money, more dues, more votes to stay in office )
Tram
RaarR! SLM will getcha!!
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Boeingman - I was just curious as to what exactly I said that set you off on me? I am still trying to figure out exactly what I said..
I am not trying to ask in a beligerent way or anything of the sort.. It seems to me that there is some very bad blood between you and Eastern guysnand perhaps that is what set you off, other than that, I cannot think of anything else...
I am not trying to ask in a beligerent way or anything of the sort.. It seems to me that there is some very bad blood between you and Eastern guysnand perhaps that is what set you off, other than that, I cannot think of anything else...
Reebo
Still working for HK
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T-Gates said:
I guess you are refering to those in my position. I do carry a copy of the list. Only pulled it out once when a mainline guy was giving me attitude. But what would you like me to do? Just forget about the past and give these guys a free ride? I think I owe it to those who came before me to honor those who walked the line and punish those who chose to cross. Oh by the way, I was 24 and worked in the airline industry during the Eastern strike of 89.
JohnnyCash
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Princedietrich
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Ok, this isn't a scab story but it's kinda sorta related.
Back in 2001 when Comair was on strike, I was working for a non-union 125/121 international operator at CVG as FE on a 72'. Here I was, on the job for little more than a month or so, still as green as they get, and every day to go to work I had to walk past the Comair picket line. It was scary to say the least.
Now for a bit of clarification, my airline did it's own thing entirely. They had one scheduled run to Cayman and everything else was vacation charter, so there wasn't anything being stolen from Comair by us.
Some of the looks I got from those Comair guys were just downright venomous, the thought of it still gives me the creeps. I could tell they were looking at me like I was just another worthless POS scab. It's not like I was stealing anything from them. I didn't even look like one of them, they had the black and gold Delta-style uniform while I had my blue and gray USAir-style uniform. It's very unnerving when you're just barely realizing you're finally an airline pilot and you were instructing in a beat up 172 not 3 months before.
Anyway, that's my story, for what it's worth.
Back in 2001 when Comair was on strike, I was working for a non-union 125/121 international operator at CVG as FE on a 72'. Here I was, on the job for little more than a month or so, still as green as they get, and every day to go to work I had to walk past the Comair picket line. It was scary to say the least.
Now for a bit of clarification, my airline did it's own thing entirely. They had one scheduled run to Cayman and everything else was vacation charter, so there wasn't anything being stolen from Comair by us.
Some of the looks I got from those Comair guys were just downright venomous, the thought of it still gives me the creeps. I could tell they were looking at me like I was just another worthless POS scab. It's not like I was stealing anything from them. I didn't even look like one of them, they had the black and gold Delta-style uniform while I had my blue and gray USAir-style uniform. It's very unnerving when you're just barely realizing you're finally an airline pilot and you were instructing in a beat up 172 not 3 months before.
Anyway, that's my story, for what it's worth.
Snakum
How's your marmott?
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banned username 1
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Wow- what a great thread
This is one of the better threads I've seen because it hasn't degenerated into a scat throwing contest.
No doubt, as everyone simply tries to make their career the most successful one they can, when confronted with all the variables within the airline business and human nature being what it is, the difference between hopes and expectations versus the eventual outcomes can lead to some deeply visceral feelings of disgust and disappointment. It's certainly evident here. Mine sure isn't ending up the way it was appearing to head just 5 short years ago.
Some may think I'm wrong, but when it comes to strikes and the perceptions of what companies (and their employees- in this case pilots) should do during a strike seems a little out of whack. Isn't the general idea of legally withholding your services to your employer the central way to economically motivate management to return to the bargaining table? Then, don't both sides give a little in order to return to business and start making money again? Generally speaking, it's a war of attrition- who can hold out the longest (or who's the stupidest)? For years, airlines had mutual-aid pacts to help each other out during labor disputes. Heck, no offense, but NWA probably made more money during their numerous strikes than when they were operating back in regulation days.
Speaking of regulation and now, Alfred Kahn. Once all that was thrown out and there was "no holds barred", business was free to jump all over a struck carrier. Do you believe that pilots forced their employers to fly struck routes? In fact, it was an open policy to force a stubborn carrier to return to the bargaining table to have other airlines scooping up their customers if they were content to have their airplanes sitting at the gates. I'm not saying that working carrier pilots were doing a noble thing, but niether was it dastardly either, as some posters on this board would have you believe. If (in the case of CAL) there is some heartburn about the passengers that were flown by others (and their brothers) they are forgetting that Frank in the foreground and Alfred and the powers that be in the background had other agendas than simply providing good air commerce at a fair price with fair wages for all. Lots more going on.
Now to ALPA. I wear the pin. I've be very mildly involved. I too have a star on it- whoopee! It means I struck. It was a time that I would not wish on anybody. ALPA is what the members make of it. I believe that 95% of the rank and file are willing to let the other 5% run it. The result is that human nature- the best of it and the worst too, is well represented there. It's no different than any other organization where it has its great points, and its not-so-great points. For people to complain about it means that they forget that (just like government) you get the one that you deserve. Obviously the 95% of the members that don't get involved are apathetic enough and happy enough to let ALPA do to them whatever injustices they perceive are being done. Get over it or get involved. If your ideas are sound, one man (or woman) CAN make a difference!
Jeez- this started out to be a scab story.....what happened?
As a new 727 f/o, I was on reserve in SFO. One of my first line trips was with a Captain, I'll use his name here, Fred Sells. I noticed right away that he did not sport his ALPA pin so we all know what that meant. In briefing, he turned out to be a nice gentleman and was very competent. During the first leg, he asked if I'd like to fly all of the rest of the legs for our two or three day trip? Being young and eagar and needing the "reps", I gladly accepted.
As we flew along, he didn't say too much. He spent a lot of time looking out the side window and doing the radio work. Occasionally, we would talk a bit and I learned that he had done a lot of work at the Training Center. Through his work he had gathered over the years, many friends both on the line and within the management ranks.
When the strike came down, he struck just like the other 94% of us did. Over the next 29 days, he would be called repeatedly by his "friends" in management who used every trick in the book to try to make him cross the line. I suppose, absent any local ALPA hand-holding of "weak sisters" the company psychological ploy worked and he returned to work- and was branded a scab.
An interesting thing happened then. After the back-slapping and telling him that he did the "smart and right thing", his company friends began to treat him differently. Because he didn't go out and cross the picket line immediately at 12:01 on strike day, he really wasn't "one of us" loyal company employees, as they were called. He was a second-class citizen to them- not really to be trusted, and a scab to us. He was a man with NO support system now who had just chosen a life-altering course of action. He was essentially alone.
The strike ended and Fred returned to the line. Since he was a respected peer before the strike, he was treated simply as what he chose to be- a scab. Shunned, with no interaction from the people he used to enjoy as friends and colleagues, going to work took on a whole new set of emotions and fears. At work with a normal operation, he was more alone than ever.
Fred told me that he would meet me at the airplane with the paperwork before each leg. I don't know where he went to. All I know is that he was an otherwise nice man who made a poor choice and was in a living hell for it. We ended our trip together and that was the last time I saw him.
A few weeks later, I was in DEN on a trip when the second officer came into the cockpit with a story of what he had just witnessed in the terminal. "One of our Captains just collapsed in the terminal". Of course I wanted to hear all about it and he obliged. It seems the Captain was walking along and simply collapsed. The paramedics were called and were quickly at his side. It didn't take long for the lead paramedic to call off the lifesaving operation- he said that the Captain was dead before he hit the ground from what looked like a massive cardiac episode. I asked my flying partner who the pilot was and was told he was a Captain named Fred Sells.
What a sad way to go: friendless and hopeless.
This is one of the better threads I've seen because it hasn't degenerated into a scat throwing contest.
No doubt, as everyone simply tries to make their career the most successful one they can, when confronted with all the variables within the airline business and human nature being what it is, the difference between hopes and expectations versus the eventual outcomes can lead to some deeply visceral feelings of disgust and disappointment. It's certainly evident here. Mine sure isn't ending up the way it was appearing to head just 5 short years ago.
Some may think I'm wrong, but when it comes to strikes and the perceptions of what companies (and their employees- in this case pilots) should do during a strike seems a little out of whack. Isn't the general idea of legally withholding your services to your employer the central way to economically motivate management to return to the bargaining table? Then, don't both sides give a little in order to return to business and start making money again? Generally speaking, it's a war of attrition- who can hold out the longest (or who's the stupidest)? For years, airlines had mutual-aid pacts to help each other out during labor disputes. Heck, no offense, but NWA probably made more money during their numerous strikes than when they were operating back in regulation days.
Speaking of regulation and now, Alfred Kahn. Once all that was thrown out and there was "no holds barred", business was free to jump all over a struck carrier. Do you believe that pilots forced their employers to fly struck routes? In fact, it was an open policy to force a stubborn carrier to return to the bargaining table to have other airlines scooping up their customers if they were content to have their airplanes sitting at the gates. I'm not saying that working carrier pilots were doing a noble thing, but niether was it dastardly either, as some posters on this board would have you believe. If (in the case of CAL) there is some heartburn about the passengers that were flown by others (and their brothers) they are forgetting that Frank in the foreground and Alfred and the powers that be in the background had other agendas than simply providing good air commerce at a fair price with fair wages for all. Lots more going on.
Now to ALPA. I wear the pin. I've be very mildly involved. I too have a star on it- whoopee! It means I struck. It was a time that I would not wish on anybody. ALPA is what the members make of it. I believe that 95% of the rank and file are willing to let the other 5% run it. The result is that human nature- the best of it and the worst too, is well represented there. It's no different than any other organization where it has its great points, and its not-so-great points. For people to complain about it means that they forget that (just like government) you get the one that you deserve. Obviously the 95% of the members that don't get involved are apathetic enough and happy enough to let ALPA do to them whatever injustices they perceive are being done. Get over it or get involved. If your ideas are sound, one man (or woman) CAN make a difference!
Jeez- this started out to be a scab story.....what happened?
As a new 727 f/o, I was on reserve in SFO. One of my first line trips was with a Captain, I'll use his name here, Fred Sells. I noticed right away that he did not sport his ALPA pin so we all know what that meant. In briefing, he turned out to be a nice gentleman and was very competent. During the first leg, he asked if I'd like to fly all of the rest of the legs for our two or three day trip? Being young and eagar and needing the "reps", I gladly accepted.
As we flew along, he didn't say too much. He spent a lot of time looking out the side window and doing the radio work. Occasionally, we would talk a bit and I learned that he had done a lot of work at the Training Center. Through his work he had gathered over the years, many friends both on the line and within the management ranks.
When the strike came down, he struck just like the other 94% of us did. Over the next 29 days, he would be called repeatedly by his "friends" in management who used every trick in the book to try to make him cross the line. I suppose, absent any local ALPA hand-holding of "weak sisters" the company psychological ploy worked and he returned to work- and was branded a scab.
An interesting thing happened then. After the back-slapping and telling him that he did the "smart and right thing", his company friends began to treat him differently. Because he didn't go out and cross the picket line immediately at 12:01 on strike day, he really wasn't "one of us" loyal company employees, as they were called. He was a second-class citizen to them- not really to be trusted, and a scab to us. He was a man with NO support system now who had just chosen a life-altering course of action. He was essentially alone.
The strike ended and Fred returned to the line. Since he was a respected peer before the strike, he was treated simply as what he chose to be- a scab. Shunned, with no interaction from the people he used to enjoy as friends and colleagues, going to work took on a whole new set of emotions and fears. At work with a normal operation, he was more alone than ever.
Fred told me that he would meet me at the airplane with the paperwork before each leg. I don't know where he went to. All I know is that he was an otherwise nice man who made a poor choice and was in a living hell for it. We ended our trip together and that was the last time I saw him.
A few weeks later, I was in DEN on a trip when the second officer came into the cockpit with a story of what he had just witnessed in the terminal. "One of our Captains just collapsed in the terminal". Of course I wanted to hear all about it and he obliged. It seems the Captain was walking along and simply collapsed. The paramedics were called and were quickly at his side. It didn't take long for the lead paramedic to call off the lifesaving operation- he said that the Captain was dead before he hit the ground from what looked like a massive cardiac episode. I asked my flying partner who the pilot was and was told he was a Captain named Fred Sells.
What a sad way to go: friendless and hopeless.
100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
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GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
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Some of you guys seem to think this profession would have been better off without the sacrifice and courage of the early ALPA volunteers.
Do you know many safety regulations were enacted at the behest of ALPA?
Do you wonder why FDR recordings don't replay on the 6 o'clock news?
Do you wonder why we don't have cameras in the cockpit?
Do you wonder why the FAA revisited and clarified that reserve pilots are either on duty or on rest (nothing in between) or that 16 hours duty is a hard limit (a Pan Am III pilot was fired for refusing to go over)?
Do you wonder why Air Zimbabwe can't fly between LGA-ORD?
Quit running down an organization that has spent blood sweat and tears and improving your profession.
By the way, I am a union volunteer. That 1.95% is the wisest investment I make. When a CP tries to pee on my cheerios or a Fed second-guesses me in an emergency I know there'll be someone in the room with me.
-- Proud union goon
Do you know many safety regulations were enacted at the behest of ALPA?
Do you wonder why FDR recordings don't replay on the 6 o'clock news?
Do you wonder why we don't have cameras in the cockpit?
Do you wonder why the FAA revisited and clarified that reserve pilots are either on duty or on rest (nothing in between) or that 16 hours duty is a hard limit (a Pan Am III pilot was fired for refusing to go over)?
Do you wonder why Air Zimbabwe can't fly between LGA-ORD?
Quit running down an organization that has spent blood sweat and tears and improving your profession.
By the way, I am a union volunteer. That 1.95% is the wisest investment I make. When a CP tries to pee on my cheerios or a Fed second-guesses me in an emergency I know there'll be someone in the room with me.
-- Proud union goon
banned username 1
Banned User
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- Posts
- 412
Now wait a minute...
I really have to take exception to your ideas about "Union Thuggery".
Thuggery would be where somebody takes somebody out and beats the heck out of them or threatens their children, etc. Anything less than that and still branded thuggery is simply incorrect and prejorative.
I always marveled at how truly civil the UAL pilots were as I never heard of a story where there was any physical assult or thuggish behavior toward Scabs.
I have former friends and acquaintances who have done something I considered beyond acceptance by me. I simply have nothing to do with them anymore. I suppose that you feel we were being mean to them whenever we would break out the clickers when we saw one too.
LL, those guys did more than went to work to do their jobs. In UALs case, they re-bid the airline to take our positions away. A psychological ploy by the company- yes, but all too real. Every situation at each company is different, but each has their own set of issues too.
Simply put, you and your wife have a pretty great marriage, but like all relationships, you have the occasional up or down. During a down time, one of your friends comes over while you're away and starts telling your wife that she would be better off without you and he wants to start dating her. How do you feel about that "friend" that you thought you knew now?
I won't make a judgement about you and you certainly are allowed to have your own opinions, but for you to make such statements sure let me know that you have....no, sorry, I said I wouldn't.
UAL78
I really have to take exception to your ideas about "Union Thuggery".
Thuggery would be where somebody takes somebody out and beats the heck out of them or threatens their children, etc. Anything less than that and still branded thuggery is simply incorrect and prejorative.
I always marveled at how truly civil the UAL pilots were as I never heard of a story where there was any physical assult or thuggish behavior toward Scabs.
I have former friends and acquaintances who have done something I considered beyond acceptance by me. I simply have nothing to do with them anymore. I suppose that you feel we were being mean to them whenever we would break out the clickers when we saw one too.
LL, those guys did more than went to work to do their jobs. In UALs case, they re-bid the airline to take our positions away. A psychological ploy by the company- yes, but all too real. Every situation at each company is different, but each has their own set of issues too.
Simply put, you and your wife have a pretty great marriage, but like all relationships, you have the occasional up or down. During a down time, one of your friends comes over while you're away and starts telling your wife that she would be better off without you and he wants to start dating her. How do you feel about that "friend" that you thought you knew now?
I won't make a judgement about you and you certainly are allowed to have your own opinions, but for you to make such statements sure let me know that you have....no, sorry, I said I wouldn't.
UAL78
GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
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