Rumor has it that LOA 93 Arbitrator Has Ruled

[charlie2]

You are also saying that an arbitrator looks beyond the merits of the case and makes decisions based on those. The reason I doubt it is they want to selected for more in the future for more big pay. If there is an arbitration on giving a pilot his job back after shooting a hole in the cockpit and if the company thinks he will consider that they violated the RLA and had a judge order the company to bargain in good faith or that the CEO has had a DUI then maybe he wont get selected.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't buy that Kasher gives a crap about USAPA's response either. I could believe the company and/or USAPA requesting a delay (and indeed that happened at least once).

 

[charlie2]

I don't buy that Kasher gives a crap about USAPA's response either. I could believe the company and/or USAPA requesting a delay (and indeed that happened at least once).

A delay in the issuance of the award? I don't remember that.

 

[PCL_128]

You are also saying that an arbitrator looks beyond the merits of the case

Absolutely. If you think otherwise, you haven't dealt much with arbitrators. There are many factors that go into their decisions, and the merit of the case is just one of those factors. That's why arbitration is far from a perfect system.

The reason I doubt it is they want to selected for more in the future for more big pay.

Of course. And how often do you think Mr. Kasher will get struck by USAPA in the future after he issues an award against them in this high-profile case? Just as they'll never use Nicolau (probably the best and most fair arbitrator in the country), they would never use him again after a ruling against them on LOA 93. He's better off waiting as long as possible, avoiding the problems that will come from the ruling, and hoping like hell that the contract gets sorted out on its own while he stalls.

 

[TWA Dude]

A delay in the issuance of the award? I don't remember that.

A month. The arb tells both sides how he's ruled and the parties can delay the report for a month. That's how we know to expect the announcement very, very soon.

 

[charlie2]

Absolutely. If you think otherwise, you haven't dealt much with arbitrators. There are many factors that go into their decisions, and the merit of the case is just one of those factors. That's why arbitration is far from a perfect system.

I have never dealt with an arbitrator...never fired my gun in the cockpit!

Of course. And how often do you think Mr. Kasher will get struck by USAPA in the future after he issues an award against them in this high-profile case? Just as they'll never use Nicolau (probably the best and most fair arbitrator in the country), they would never use him again after a ruling against them on LOA 93. He's better off waiting as long as possible, avoiding the problems that will come from the ruling, and hoping like hell that the contract gets sorted out on its own while he stalls.

I disagree a little. If he has sound precedent and RLA rules to use in his decision then we will have to agree and move on. I have posted this at least twice and no one responds so I'll try one more time and then I will never try again...I promise! A contract with many sections has an amendable date at the end of the contract not after each section, paragraph or sentence. This LOA clearly has a start and end date after the pay "freeze" language...why?

 

[charlie2]

A month. The arb tells both sides how he's ruled and the parties can delay the report for a month. That's how we know to expect the announcement very, very soon.

OK but he told our reps in June that he knows he owes us a decision and will have one in two months and by my calandar it's October...unless I forgot to wind it.

 

[PCL_128]

I disagree a little. If he has sound precedent and RLA rules to use in his decision then we will have to agree and move on. I have posted this at least twice and no one responds so I'll try one more time and then I will never try again...I promise! A contract with many sections has an amendable date at the end of the contract not after each section, paragraph or sentence. This LOA clearly has a start and end date after the pay "freeze" language...why?

The problem you have is that the language is not completely clear. Arbitrators love to have language that is really clear, because they can rest their decision on the clear language and not have to worry about the rest. But in this case, it never actually uses words like "expires" or "amendable." That makes the language vague. When that happens, arbitrators move on to other criteria to make a decision. The next thing they'll look for is original intent, if it can be determined. Your biggest problem here is the evidence that your own reps didn't' believe that those rates were amendable. Your own reps testified that they didn't expire. I believe it was your PHL council that sent out a message making it clear way back then that the rates didn't expire. All of that is part of the record in the arbitration hearing. It looks really, really bad for you.

Look, as much as I despise USAPA, I'd like you guys to win. That $124/hr Airbus and 737 rate is a real anchor on pattern bargaining for everyone else right now. UAL/CAL are in Section 6 right now, and Alaska, Delta, and Southwest open up next year. The last thing anyone needs is a $124/hr SNB rate when we're all trying to get it above $200/hr again (or keep it there in the case of SWA). That Airways rate really needs to go up, or this bargaining cycle won't be very easy. I just don't see how you can do it with LOA 93. You need a new CBA.

 

[charlie2]

The problem you have is that the language is not completely clear. Arbitrators love to have language that is really clear, because they can rest their decision on the clear language and not have to worry about the rest. But in this case, it never actually uses words like "expires" or "amendable." That makes the language vague. When that happens, arbitrators move on to other criteria to make a decision. The next thing they'll look for is original intent, if it can be determined. Your biggest problem here is the evidence that your own reps didn't' believe that those rates were amendable. Your own reps testified that they didn't expire. I believe it was your PHL council that sent out a message making it clear way back then that the rates didn't expire. All of that is part of the record in the arbitration hearing. It looks really, really bad for you.

But it doesn't look really "bad" for us, we just want a decision, remember Kasher can't lower our rates or "Kashtrate us". I think once we get it there might be a change of heart for some easties...even you, an Airtran guy, "hopes" we win so how do you think a lot of our guys feel?

Look, as much as I despise USAPA, I'd like you guys to win. That $124/hr Airbus and 737 rate is a real anchor on pattern bargaining for everyone else right now. UAL/CAL are in Section 6 right now, and Alaska, Delta, and Southwest open up next year. The last thing anyone needs is a $124/hr SNB rate when we're all trying to get it above $200/hr again (or keep it there in the case of SWA). That Airways rate really needs to go up, or this bargaining cycle won't be very easy. I just don't see how you can do it with LOA 93. You need a new CBA.

Once LOA 93 is in the past there might be a lot more pressure on our NAC to get it moving.

 

[PCL_128]

Once LOA 93 is in the past there might be a lot more pressure on our NAC to get it moving.

A good point. I doubt there's much holding him up at this point. Hopefully you'll have the decision soon.

 

[TWA Dude]

Once LOA 93 is in the past there might be a lot more pressure on our NAC to get it moving.

The NAC will have zero success as long we have a divided pilot group (no leverage) and you know how we can solve that problem.

 

[charlie2]

The NAC will have zero success as long we have a divided pilot group (no leverage) and you know how we can solve that problem.

You might be right but it will be better to get beyond LOA 93. There will be decisions about how the list can be "negotiated" and if those decisions go USAPA's way you still will have DFR II while working at a place with wide bodies and a lot of geezers. If the decisions go your way...even better for you. We do have a national mediation lady helping to keep the ball rolling, right?

 

[PHXFLYR]

There's nothing about the NIC list that will be "negotiated ", Chuckles. It is the NIC as is, or LOA 93 for the remainder of your career. Pick the one that suits your fancy. Personally, I could care less which way you run with the ball. All I know is there will be no modification to the NIC award and if you and your boys try, I along with everyone out here will do everything legally possible to thwart your attempts for as long as it takes


PHXFLYR

 

[charlie2]

There's nothing about the NIC list that will be "negotiated ", Chuckles.

Sorry I did't communicate that very well. What I meant by "decisions" I meant how the judge will rule in the companies "Declaratory" suit. I did use the word "if" properly though...IF that judge rules in a way that makes the company think they can accept a DOH list than that is what will be in the contract unless of course the constitution changes and/or west pilots and neutrals (new hires) get a majority, which will happen in 5 or 6 years.

All I know is there will be no modification to the NIC award and if you and your boys try, I along with everyone out here will do everything legally possible to thwart your attempts for as long as it takes

Ya, we already know about DFR II...I've mentioned it in my posts many times and we will expect it if a DOH list ends up in a raified contract.

PHXFLYR

I do sometimes wish that you guys could have somehow forced the nic on us when it first came out. Last year I would have been recalled after a 9 year furlough to better pay and bennies instead of working the last four for crap, but we are stuck in this legal quagmire (giggity) and I don't think we will see an end for a decade because of the lawsuits and the expected appeals. I really hope we can get a contract in a couple years and at least work with better rates etc.. while the appeals are all going on.

 

[Guppiedriver]

IF that judge rules in a way that makes the company think they can accept a DOH list than that is what will be in the contract unless of course the constitution changes and/or west pilots and neutrals (new hires) get a majority, which will happen in 5 or 6 years.

I do sometimes wish that you guys could have somehow forced the nic on us when it first came out. Last year I would have been recalled after a 9 year furlough to better pay and bennies instead of working the last four for crap, but we are stuck in this legal quagmire (giggity) and I don't think we will see an end for a decade because of the lawsuits and the expected appeals. I really hope we can get a contract in a couple years and at least work with better rates etc.. while the appeals are all going on.

The west will never achieve majority status because the easties are brainwashing the third listers. I have a friend that is a third lister and he has shown signs of brainwashing.

If uSAPa ratifies a contract with DOH attached to it, AOL will ask the courts for an injunction. The injunction will stop the contract from being implemented.

Unless you can convince enough easties to accept the Nic and rewrite uSAPa's C&BL's the only way we will ever see a new contract is another merger.

 

[Metrojet]

There's nothing about the NIC list that will be "negotiated ", Chuckles. It is the NIC as is, or LOA 93 for the remainder of your career. Pick the one that suits your fancy. Personally, I could care less which way you run with the ball. All I know is there will be no modification to the NIC award and if you and your boys try, I along with everyone out here will do everything legally possible to thwart your attempts for as long as it takes


PHXFLYR

NIC is a separate issue from LOA 93, so they are not related. Every single pilot here will get a vote if we ever get to a CBA - in the mean time - the East gets to upgrade all the angry FO's while the West stagnates. Now, with that being said - I agree the rates SUCK, but that is the reality for all US AIRWAYS pilots.

And, personally, I could care less which way you run with the ball - but you better figure out what your going to due when the next merger comes along and the PHX base is spun off to someone separate from the whole. And don't think it cant happen under the current TA, since we haven't merged the pilot groups yet.

Metrojet

 

[LaGarbage Man]

The west will never achieve majority status because the easties are brainwashing the third listers. I have a friend that is a third lister and he has shown signs of brainwashing.

If uSAPa ratifies a contract with DOH attached to it, AOL will ask the courts for an injunction. The injunction will stop the contract from being implemented.

Unless you can convince enough easties to accept the Nic and rewrite uSAPa's C&BL's the only way we will ever see a new contract is another merger.

Do not be trying to lump us third list folks in to one camp or another. I think maybe a better way to describe some of us as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Sounds nicer than a demeaning term like brainwashed. It would be a much better analogy seeing as we are held hostage by the almost daily East/West antics. Truth be told when we chat among ourselves the general consensus is that both sides in this long drawn out abortion of a merger have things they should not be proud of. In the end we third list folks are just average airline pilots (that is not meant as a compliment ) We will vote for what ever is best for our given situation / seniority. If the Eastholes prevail and tie it to a living wage contract then yep you bet your a$$ I am voting for it. Same thing goes if the Westicles prevails. We know we will be junior to the whole dam lot of you and yet we seem to be the only ones who understand that soon enough we will start to inherit this whole screwed up airline. Hell that is what we were counting on when we came here.Surely you don't think it was for the money and work rules do you. Sorry for the rant but I refuse to let either side try to claim third list is in any one particular camp or another. We have enough problems just trying to survive on these crap wages. The last thing I need is a misguided portion of the East/West guys giving us problems. I can not stop you guys from continuing to indulge in FECES FEST 2011 but I dam sure am not going to let you point your crap cannons at us. Rant off, back to your regularly scheduled East vrs. West thread.

 

[charlie2]

Do not be trying to lump us third list folks in to one camp or another. I think maybe a better way to describe some of us as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Sounds nicer than a demeaning term like brainwashed. It would be a much better analogy seeing as we are held hostage by the almost daily East/West antics. Truth be told when we chat among ourselves the general consensus is that both sides in this long drawn out abortion of a merger have things they should not be proud of. In the end we third list folks are just average airline pilots (that is not meant as a compliment ) We will vote for what ever is best for our given situation / seniority. If the Eastholes prevail and tie it to a living wage contract then yep you bet your a$$ I am voting for it. Same thing goes if the Westicles prevails. We know we will be junior to the whole dam lot of you and yet we seem to be the only ones who understand that soon enough we will start to inherit this whole screwed up airline. Hell that is what we were counting on when we came here.Surely you don't think it was for the money and work rules do you. Sorry for the rant but I refuse to let either side try to claim third list is in any one particular camp or another. We have enough problems just trying to survive on these crap wages. The last thing I need is a misguided portion of the East/West guys giving us problems. I can not stop you guys from continuing to indulge in FECES FEST 2011 but I dam sure am not going to let you point your crap cannons at us. Rant off, back to your regularly scheduled East vrs. West thread.

You will do well here no matter what happens because of the geezers.

 

[becket]

NIC is a separate issue from LOA 93, so they are not related.

Metrojet

5 years on and you people STILL don't get what's happening. Unbelievable.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Do not be trying to lump us third list folks in to one camp or another. I think maybe a better way to describe some of us as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Sounds nicer than a demeaning term like brainwashed. It would be a much better analogy seeing as we are held hostage by the almost daily East/West antics. Truth be told when we chat among ourselves the general consensus is that both sides in this long drawn out abortion of a merger have things they should not be proud of. In the end we third list folks are just average airline pilots (that is not meant as a compliment ) We will vote for what ever is best for our given situation / seniority. If the Eastholes prevail and tie it to a living wage contract then yep you bet your a$$ I am voting for it. Same thing goes if the Westicles prevails. We know we will be junior to the whole dam lot of you and yet we seem to be the only ones who understand that soon enough we will start to inherit this whole screwed up airline. Hell that is what we were counting on when we came here.Surely you don't think it was for the money and work rules do you. Sorry for the rant but I refuse to let either side try to claim third list is in any one particular camp or another. We have enough problems just trying to survive on these crap wages. The last thing I need is a misguided portion of the East/West guys giving us problems. I can not stop you guys from continuing to indulge in FECES FEST 2011 but I dam sure am not going to let you point your crap cannons at us. Rant off, back to your regularly scheduled East vrs. West thread.

Fair enough. Just so you know, I told my buddy that he was suffering from Stockholm Syndrome the last time we talked. He later told his wife what I said and she agreed with me.