PSA offered 900's

[Victor Meldrew]

Hey, we don't want 'em! But for the umpteenth trillionth time, THAT's exactly what happened with you guys! You were flying relatively new-to-property Dorks, and whizzbang presto, you got the jets. It has happened before, so don't count it out just because it's a bad idea. How do you think we'd feel if AWAC dusted off their DHC8 cert to play ball for some -400s?
.

Sorry Sig company have already approached us for a 70 seat T/P rate. We told them we already have it - it's the 70 seat jet rate, and when they asked for a 90 seat rate we told them again we have that - it's the 146 rate. So I guess niether will come our way as they don't want to pay the pilots some where close to what they should be paid.

 

[ex j-41]

Why a "NO" vote is in Order......


http://www.aviationnews.net/images/logos/nopic.gif A union official representing the US Airways flight attendants yesterday blasted the carrier's management team for excercising over eight million dollars in stock options.

"US Airways flight attendants gave over $150 million in contract concessions, including termination of our pensions, in order for the airline to survive and be a partner in the merger," said Mike Flores, US Airways Master Executive Council President. "For former America West executives, who absent the merger would likely be in bankruptcy court themselves, to now cash in pre-arranged merger created stock options and grants is just beyond obscene."
According to UBS Financial Services, Scott Kirby, US Airways Vice President of Sales and Marketing, cashed in a total of over $4 million, while Chief Administrative Officer Jeff McClelland made $2.2 million before tax. General Counsel Jim Walsh and Chief Financial Officer Derek Kerr made pre-tax earnings of $1.53 million and $1.1 million respectively. "If management's attitude at the bargaining table continues, predictions of a smooth merger will fall short," said Gary Richardson, America West Master Executive Council President. "Given the company's intransigence on simple matters so far, it is hard to see how an agreement could be reached by the company's target date."

 

[sniper]

Sorry you Mesa Puke, but EVERYONE will have moral high ground against you guys. Even if the decision is made to take these airplanes, our capt rates by 10/1/07 will be HIGHER than your 900 rates. (Oh sorry, that's a 700/200 blend) And we will only have about 15 a/c at that point. In addition, we are in this position due to CRAP CONTRACT LIFT carriers such as Mesa. And the wet behind the ears Bastards that flocked over there to fly for them. Your product sucks (commute too much on them, couldn't tell if it was english your f/a was speaking during the demo, hell she couldn't even explain that they were late, and wanted everyone w/o a tight connection to stay seated so those that did could get off. It was horendous, You couldn't understand her gibberish english. Have witnessed numerous assinine speaches by your capts, and you look like ******************** through the terminals too, as well as the multitude of missconnects due to MTX or No Crew available on clear days. Seeing F/A's in UAL uniforms because they were plucked from overnights on UAL system, based in ORD to fly the US system. (And I will give them this, they were the only two I've seen that show any sense of professionalism, and did a dang good job considering they were working their 16th hour)
I don't ever want to hear about a moral high road from the likes of Mesa, That company is the likes of cockroaches which have been feeding off the bottom for years. I don't care that you've thrown out your MEC/Negotiating Comm. I don't care you have a contract up in 2 years. You should have done this 6 years ago. You should have researched what a crap place it was, and taken the Moral High Road and never went.

So untill your pilot group stops being the basis of the whipsaw, so many other carriers have been up against. We shouldn't hear a PEEP out of you.....


-rant off....

That is exactly how my Piedmont pilot friends feel about the PSA selfish pilots.


bottom feeders

 

[D'Angelo]

The bottom line here is the pilots are going to vote whats best for them. Turning down growth is foolish in this buisness.

 

[ex j-41]

Ya, i will just tell my bank that i cannot pay the mortgage, but i fly a nice new CRJ 900!

 

[Sawmill]

the problem with this comparison is that those other people go home 16 hours out of each "work day" (assuming 8 hr work day) whereas we spend the whole 24 hours away in a hotel someplace away from our families.

Weasil: Point taken. But I have two questions for you. 1) Is all that time away from home so bad that it is just tolerable enough to beatch about but not quit over? and 2) Are you obligated to stay at a job spending roughly 300 hours monthly away from home, on duty for roughly 175 hours monthly, and only paid for 72 hours? If you are going to use the arguement that you dont want a job sitting in an office 8 hours a day v. an office @ 30000 feet with a great view, then why complain at all?!? We only live once and if we are wasting all that time away from home in BFE not getting paid, is it really worth it? I for one know of a number of jobs where you get paid respectfully and dont sit in an office. So again I ask, why do pilots beatch about money when they are in complete control of what they do, know the pay going in to a flying position, and still choose to fly? Its time to make some grown up decisions folks...I did.

 

[D'Angelo]

Ya, i will just tell my bank that i cannot pay the mortgage, but i fly a nice new CRJ 900!

Ummmm if your pay stays the same then you are either able to pay the mortage or your not. Its not like your taking a paycut if you still make the exact same money. Sitting as an F/O for life isnt the best way to pay a mortage either. The only way you ever upgrade is via growth. If every airline just stopped growing it would take you ages to get to captain. Attrition only takes you so far.

 

[ex j-41]

We know the job includes being in BFE, and we know that we will be away from our families a lot of the time. I agree it it part of the job. And i expect to get paid for everything that is "Part of the Job".

This is why it is so hard to do 4 hr sits. Our time is wasted and we are not getting paid for the company wasting our time. Now i only finished grade 3 but to me that just not seem right.

 

[D'Angelo]

We know the job includes being in BFE, and we know that we will be away from our families a lot of the time. I agree it it part of the job. And i expect to get paid for everything that is "Part of the Job".

This is why it is so hard to do 4 hr sits. Our time is wasted and we are not getting paid for the company wasting our time. Now i only finished grade 3 but to me that just not seem right.

You are getting paid for it though. We are all salaried individuals. We will get paid whatever the guarantee is each month. Doesn't matter how little you work etc as long as you work what your scheduled you will get paid your salary. Anything over that should be considered extra however we all have a base salary.

 

[ex j-41]

Ummmm if your pay stays the same then you are either able to pay the mortage or your not. Its not like your taking a paycut if you still make the exact same money. Sitting as an F/O for life isnt the best way to pay a mortage either. The only way you ever upgrade is via growth. If every airline just stopped growing it would take you ages to get to captain. Attrition only takes you so far.

Yes i should have explained.....

I feel that flying the CRJ 900 with the current 200 rates (with a little 700 raise in there) is actually a pay cut.
I am doing more work. And not getting paid any more for it.
That is 20 more "Bu Bye's". And the airplane is bigger so the walk around will take longer. Not too mention i have to input Zone 4 in the FMS. We will have longer turnaround times. Thats more time on the ground not getting paid. Have you looked at your Orignating check lately? Dude by the time you take the van to the airport, go through security, load all your crap, start the APU, do the walkaround, Get the ATIS...., Do the Originating check, then the before start brief, then finish the paperwork/fms, Before start check, Call for push...............After 45 min of WORKING you finally start getting paid. Thats only IF you don't have an issue with the airplane. We are being taken advantage of severely.

All we ask is a fair wage for our services.

You are getting paid for it though. We are all salaried individuals. We will get paid whatever the guarantee is each month. Doesn't matter how little you work etc as long as you work what your scheduled you will get paid your salary. Anything over that should be considered extra however we all have a base salary.

Getting paid for 8 hrs while having a 54hr TAFB is not getting paid. I don't know how you could think otherwise.

 

[Sig]

We told them we already have it - it's the 70 seat jet rate, and when they asked for a 90 seat rate we told them again we have that - it's the 146 rate.

Wow! When did they do that? And I was wrong- I had assumed they'd play us. Looking at that statement above and how you guys turned down the midwest flying, management would have a hard row to hoe.

Thanks, guys.

 

[BoilerUP]

We didn't turn down any Midwest flying (it would be a wet dream to our pilot group living in WI), we simply told the company NO to a b-scale in order to place a "more competitive bid". If the company wants that flying, they'll get that flying - they don't need the help of the pilot group to finance it.

 

[Sig]

Thanks for the clarification, Boiler. That makes your "no" even bolder! Wow. SOMEBODY is playing right.

 

[Victor Meldrew]

Wow! When did they do that? And I was wrong- I had assumed they'd play us. Looking at that statement above and how you guys turned down the midwest flying, management would have a hard row to hoe.

Thanks, guys.

Midwest wanted those interested to submit their quotes by 30th June so it will take a while for them (Midwest) to look through them and work out if that is still the best course of action and make an annoucement either way.

And Boiler is right, the owners were making a clear porfit before concessions and more after concessions and therefore no B Scale the pilots won't fund the airline out of their pockets.

 

[gcsass]

This is like DeJaVu all over again, take away quality of life things and make our lives miserable(layover location, airport appreciation...etc) than sell it back to us! This reminds me of the good ol' days watching mainline gut their contract and destroy their way of life.

Secondly, if we do get these 900's, I see a scenario where 3 years from now we hear the same song and dance in negotiations. "Well if you don't fly em for minimum wage, we'll send em to Mesa. We will have to furlough those 200 to 400 newhires and all those long term FO's who upgraded will get downgraded"

Third....1000 PIC is like turning 16....you have the opportunity to drive, but no one will let you. Just ask all the 7000 hour Captains floating around here who have several thousand hours of PIC and are still here (not by choice).

I am not opposed to helping the company, but this "Take it or leave it" we need an answer yesterday is not how these things should be negotiated.

In the end we are setting up our future and I am talking about 20 years out, not 3.

By the way Crazipilot...that was hilarious!!

 

[D'Angelo]

This is like DeJaVu all over again, take away quality of life things and make our lives miserable(layover location, airport appreciation...etc) than sell it back to us! This reminds me of the good ol' days watching mainline gut their contract and destroy their way of life.

Secondly, if we do get these 900's, I see a scenario where 3 years from now we hear the same song and dance in negotiations. "Well if you don't fly em for minimum wage, we'll send em to Mesa. We will have to furlough those 200 to 400 newhires and all those long term FO's who upgraded will get downgraded"

Third....1000 PIC is like turning 16....you have the opportunity to drive, but no one will let you. Just ask all the 7000 hour Captains floating around here who have several thousand hours of PIC and are still here (not by choice).

I am not opposed to helping the company, but this "Take it or leave it" we need an answer yesterday is not how these things should be negotiated.

In the end we are setting up our future and I am talking about 20 years out, not 3.

By the way Crazipilot...that was hilarious!!

Its not only the 1000PIC thats important. Its the payraise you get with an upgrade thats most important. Again a contract with fantastic benefits, work rules, etc. is worthless without growth. If your gonna be a career FO then your still stuck at a dead end. Id rather be growing and making more money than in a dead end job.

 

[Crzipilot]

Wet dream to live in WI??? Dunno 'bout that...LOL....

 

[BoilerUP]

Wet dream to live in WI??? Dunno 'bout that...LOL....

I dunno about wet dream to live there, but wet dream to drive to work instead of commuting to PHL or DCA? Yeah, I'd say that fits for a fair chunk...

 

[Clipper_Aurora]

This is what it all boils down to....

1. REALLY senior CA's will majority will vote yes for the sake of thier Career at PSA

2. Majority of J4J CA's will vote yes for sake of slots

3. Majority of all other CA's (middle the road) they will vote no, they have nothing to gain only to drop due to slots, and no raise till possibly 2009

4. Now the people that will make the decision are the FO's, really senior ones will vote yes for IC and $25 dollar an hour raise (give or take) real junior FO's will vote yes for long awaited line holding and puts 150 pilots beneath them, middle of the road FO's 2-3 years don't know what the hell to do, because the middle of the road CA's are convincing some this is not good, and then the others are smart and knows that it is a good thing!

MY ADVICE to fellow FO'S do what is best for you.....others don't give a sh&t about you....they already have their 1000PIC hours and sitting left seat, house kids family etc.......what do we have? foodstamps, poor wages, livin in mommy's basement, seat locked FO flying with J4J's (majority) that thinks they are gods gift to flying.

make the right choice, if we don't get them, MESA will and PSA will be shut down within a couple years later.

PARKERS team says YES or NO

vote yes

 

[Sig]

make the right choice, if we don't get them, MESA will and PSA will be shut down within a couple years later.

I've gotten out of pocket on this thread and beeyotched about things past, so hopefully by admitting it I regain some cred.

One of the things I've said about this is that if you think you'll have a bargaining chip in the future, you certainly have the same one now.

On top of that, Mesa is a crap product. Check Doug's Feb or Jan PHX crew news to pilots, about 00:42:10 he says the words, "Gosh, MESA sucks." This in response to a PSA CA's complaint about their atrocious service as he tries to nonrev to work-- out of an outstation PSA as well as PDT serves. It's still there, but you have to wait until the stream buffers that far into the meeting.

Look. Mainline is ready to invest in planes. If they wanted a crap lift airline to fly them, they'd put out an RFP first to see who whores and how low. Mesa already shamed themselves with that flying; why are mainline managers looking to expand a wholly-owned at their expense rather than throwing some more cheese at the rats that are already doing it? That's important to realize.

There is a reason you're getting tapped to expand over the only 900 operator in the system already- they can't stand them. Need proof? THE CEO SAID THEY SUCK, and they do. You DO have a chip.

Good luck. Tough hand to play.

***Furthermore,

I've been under the assumption that the mainline MEC is watching this deal. Consider that.

One final, loud and proud sentiment is the fact that up until May every crew news webcast at both PHX and CLT forced Doug to field questions about contract lift (mainly Mesa), and why not the WOs doing more flying instead of them. Watch the webcasts. The mainline pilots we all want to be seem to want to protect us. Consider that as well.

And, uh... Mesa sucks.

 

[Lineup&wt]

is that u spring break

 

[Sawmill]

Yup...Its me. Still looking at this site for entertainment purposes. Who is this by the way?
Pseu pseu pseudo

 

[Lineup&wt]

yeah its the pink peep eater. give me a call.

 

[PropPiedmont]

Sorry just got back from a long trip. Don't have time to read the last 100 posts I missed. So, if this has already been said then I apologize.

PSA pilots have US Airways management by the balls. And since I'm not at PSA I don't know if you guys know this. US Air will not give these 900s to Mesa period. They will not send them to Republic due to staffing concerns. They will not send them to Piedmont because they don't ever acknowledge us. They won't go to mainline because the pay is too high. Bottom line is PSA is already type rated for the 900, they already have the training department, and US Airways management knows they are weak.

PSA please listen to this, think about it and formulate a plan before acting. You guys have US airways by the balls, you really do. Stand your ground and get the pay that is deserved. Ask for the US Air E190 pay rates.

Worst case scenerio if you say no:

First US Airways will take a dump in their pants. You will catch them totally of guard.

Next, US Air will do one of two things. They will either negotiate the higher pay rate or they will call up PDT to bid for the 900 flying. PDT will definitely jump on the flying and once they do, US Air will announce the merger of PSA and PDT. This will bring the 900s right back to PSA, since they have the training dept. US Airways is LOW COST.......

Pease, Please, Please think about every scenerio possible before taking the 900s.

PSA YOU HAVE US AIRWAYS BY THE SHORT AND CURLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sniper]

Sorry just got back from a long trip. Don't have time to read the last 100 posts I missed. So, if this has already been said then I apologize.

PSA pilots have US Airways management by the balls. And since I'm not at PSA I don't know if you guys know this. US Air will not give these 900s to Mesa period. They will not send them to Republic due to staffing concerns. They will not send them to Piedmont because they don't ever acknowledge us. They won't go to mainline because the pay is too high. Bottom line is PSA is already type rated for the 900, they already have the training department, and US Airways management knows they are weak.

PSA please listen to this, think about it and formulate a plan before acting. You guys have US airways by the balls, you really do. Stand your ground and get the pay that is deserved. Ask for the US Air E190 pay rates.

Worst case scenerio if you say no:

First US Airways will take a dump in their pants. You will catch them totally of guard.

Next, US Air will do one of two things. They will either negotiate the higher pay rate or they will call up PDT to bid for the 900 flying. PDT will definitely jump on the flying and once they do, US Air will announce the merger of PSA and PDT. This will bring the 900s right back to PSA, since they have the training dept. US Airways is LOW COST.......

Pease, Please, Please think about every scenerio possible before taking the 900s.

PSA YOU HAVE US AIRWAYS BY THE SHORT AND CURLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I Agree 100%


Merge the whole thing is a must

 

[D'Angelo]

Sorry just got back from a long trip. Don't have time to read the last 100 posts I missed. So, if this has already been said then I apologize.

PSA pilots have US Airways management by the balls. And since I'm not at PSA I don't know if you guys know this. US Air will not give these 900s to Mesa period. They will not send them to Republic due to staffing concerns. They will not send them to Piedmont because they don't ever acknowledge us. They won't go to mainline because the pay is too high. Bottom line is PSA is already type rated for the 900, they already have the training department, and US Airways management knows they are weak.

PSA please listen to this, think about it and formulate a plan before acting. You guys have US airways by the balls, you really do. Stand your ground and get the pay that is deserved. Ask for the US Air E190 pay rates.

Worst case scenerio if you say no:

First US Airways will take a dump in their pants. You will catch them totally of guard.

Next, US Air will do one of two things. They will either negotiate the higher pay rate or they will call up PDT to bid for the 900 flying. PDT will definitely jump on the flying and once they do, US Air will announce the merger of PSA and PDT. This will bring the 900s right back to PSA, since they have the training dept. US Airways is LOW COST.......

Pease, Please, Please think about every scenerio possible before taking the 900s.

PSA YOU HAVE US AIRWAYS BY THE SHORT AND CURLIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats a big problem with pilots. They are truly idealists at heart. The bottom line is no one knows what the decision is. You best be competitive first time around rather than being caught with your trousers down.

 

[PunchTheClown]

We better say no. For all of these reasons. Management is just going to be blowing a bunch of smoke. The salary for management is based on the size of the fleet. So you can bet that all of our beloved higher ups (if you can call them that) will be getting a pay raise. We should as well. We are the only ones that do any real work and without us, the airline wouldnt exist.

This may or may not be a good time to tie this in but did you see that the cultural survey showed that they the only groups that thought this place sucked to work at was the pilot and flight attendant groups? Interesting to say the least. Lets get some more green from this cheap bastards.

 

[CRJMonkey]

Proppiedmont....Great idea . and man that would be a great move for the pilot group to raise standards and moral. it seems to logical and where talking managemnet, when was the last time any of these suits thought about tommorow instead of 2 days ago. the whole 900 issue came out nowhere it was so unexpected when it was sprung on these guys. whos to say they don't have something even more tricky up there sleeve if PSA declines. After all its airline management, the slime of the industry

 

[ex j-41]

Here are the reasons why peidmont will not get the Jets.
1) No J4J agreement
2) No training program
3) They will have to do proving runs $$$
4) How do they determine who flys the jets and who flys the props? Seniority? Then the cost would far exceed PSA
5) No pay scale for 90 seaters in place. 6 month min negotiations.
6) If Piedmont gets the 900's and PSA's 200 are going away....then PSA would then just fade away. Makes it difficult for management to whipsaw a regional when there is only one left.


I hear the rumors that either we take the jets or piedmont will, is a lie. PSA will get the jets even if we vote "No".

On a side note PSA was told that this is not a negotiating item. We either vote Yes or No. Here is what i got from the MEC

Also know that any final agreement to be negotiated would be subject to a member ratification vote.

This sounds like a negotiation item to me. What scares me is that there is no provision that stops PSA from taking away the 200's. Can you imagine an all 700 and 900 fleet getting paid 200 rates!

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Here are the reasons why peidmont will not get the Jets.
1) No J4J agreement
2) No training program
3) They will have to do proving runs $$$
4) How do they determine who flys the jets and who flys the props? Seniority? Then the cost would far exceed PSA
5) No pay scale for 90 seaters in place. 6 month min negotiations.
6) If Piedmont gets the 900's and PSA's 200 are going away....then PSA would then just fade away. Makes it difficult for management to whipsaw a regional when there is only one left.


I hear the rumors that either we take the jets or piedmont will, is a lie. PSA will get the jets even if we vote "No".

On a side note PSA was told that this is not a negotiating item. We either vote Yes or No. Here is what i got from the MEC

This sounds like a negotiation item to me. What scares me is that there is no provision that stops PSA from taking away the 200's. Can you imagine an all 700 and 900 fleet getting paid 200 rates!

Your conclusions may or may not be correct, but there are some factual mistakes in your post...

1. We DO have a J4J agreement. As a matter of fact, we were the first WO to agree to it's terms. We never got a jet, but we are still a "participating carrier" for the purposes of flow through, so obviously we have a J4J agreement in place.

2. PDT does have a CRJ AQP program on the shelves, approved and ready to go. We have had it since we thought we were getting the jets after being the first WO to agree to Group's terms. After all, they said the first WO to agree would win the prize... Oh, wait, that was the first WO to slit the other two's throats. Thats how PSA came to have them. Maybe you weren't around for that.

3. Yawn. BFD. A drop in the bucket.

4. Seniority. Duh. You really haven't been at this long, have you? Are you really advocating an equipment bid outside of seniority? Yeah, being a guy with 15-20 years in at PDT is really a fu#king crime, ain't it?

5. Maybe right on that one, but I doubt it'd take six months.

6. Parker did say he wanted "further consolidation at the WO's" so who knows. Just remember... CEL seniority governs!