PSA offered 900's

[jetfo]

]

All 900's should go to mainline period.

Yet another philosopher!

 

[jetfo]

Agreed, but it's too late for that. Mainline is getting slapped in the face (90 seat jets at PSA with mainline pilots on the street). PSA is getting slapped in the face (fly the 90 seaters for LESS than 70 seaters AND a pay freeze). PDT is getting slapped in the face (more jets for the other W/O who they feel already stabbed them in the back).

EDUC8-or:

You're not educating too clearly! How in the world do interpret the offer to mean flying the 900s for less than the 700s?

And, actually mainline pilots are flying them, although unfortunately not at mainline.

 

[ABITRATOR]

The next step for PSA negotiations will go somewhat like this:

Management will say, "If the PSA pilot group doesn't agree to fly the -900 at current payrates then that is just fine."

Next they'll say, "Due to current economic conditions and the continued rise in the price of oil, we have determined that operating a fleet of 50 seat RJs is no longer economically viable. Starting next month PSA will begin returning CRJ 200s to the lessor."

And lastly, "The CRJ-900 flying is still available for PSA to secure. In order to prevent the furlough of half of our pilot group it is strongly recommended that we bid on this flying at our current rates. Your job security and futures are in your own hands, we know you will do what you think is right and best for the pilot group as a whole."

And that's when they should all say, "so be it , shut the company down." PSA is not going to operate with 14 700s.

 

[ex j-41]

Well JetFO you know where i stand in regards to the low ticket prices and the fact that our salary's are subsidizing the ticket prices. But did you know that if the Cpt and F/O were each given a $5 raise it would work out to $0.11 more for each passenger/hr. 90 seats/$10
The fares would only have to raise ELEVEN cents/hr for us to get a raise. Is this unreasonable?
We are getting taken advantage of and it has to stop.
It will stop with a "NO" vote!

 

[jetfo]

Yes but ALPA represents us. If we all start make posivtive statements, such as turning down such offers, then we just might light the fire under their butts. And if they still fail to take a stand, then we find new representation.

How often have I heard that one, and nothing ever changes!

ALPA represents active mainline pilots, and primarily the senior ones, because that is where the money is!

Things will change when someone convinces the ALPA leadership that it is in their best interest to effect change.

 

[BoilerUP]

But did you know that if the Cpt and F/O were each given a $5 raise it would work out to $0.11 more for each passenger/hr. 90 seats/$10
The fares would only have to raise ELEVEN cents/hr for us to get a raise. Is this unreasonable?
We are getting taken advantage of and it has to stop.
It will stop with a "NO" vote!

Quoted for truth.

 

[EDUC8-or]

EDUC8-or:

You're not educating too clearly! How in the world do interpret the offer to mean flying the 900s for less than the 700s?

And, actually mainline pilots are flying them, although unfortunately not at mainline.

The current blended ratio of 200's/700's will be frozen. (Bring on a 700 and our pay rate ever so slightly increases). That's not going to happen with this deal, thus we would be flying the 900's with a freeze in the blended rate resulting in less money.

Sure, there are furloughed mainline pilots flying them here.

 

[jetfo]

This is exactly where alpa (national) needs to step in and control the situation.

(TSA/G*jets, another I believe and every other whipsaw that's occured) Set a nationwide rate / or cost of operting per aircraft. Whether it's through pay rates, vacation amounts/ rigs / etc etc.....And not allow a carrier to go below that.

If PSA had the safety of knowing that they could turn these aircraft away, without another carrier coming in and agreeing to do it, there wouldn't be any argument as to what to do. But the current situation, where MESA has 900's currently operating on the property, one would fathom and No vote would send these things quicker than you can say it, straight to Mesa or somewhere, and I would put money on it that pilot group wouldn't think too hard on taking on the a/c. Get all the MEC's together and agree to do it for X amount min. and you negate the whipsaw. It is this situation that allows management to come in with a straight face, and give a take it or leave it offer. They know they have 5 other whores, they can go proposition. So we are number two.

Amen!!! ALPA National needs to help all of us out. The main line guys, the J4J's, Furl. guys, and all the regionals and come up with a pay scale and work rules min. fast before this industry is forever changed.

This is the only possible solution folks, Crzi and Landrover are absolutely right! Nothing short of that will stop the whip sawing and the race to the bottom!

 

[ex j-41]

They know they have 5 other whores, they can go proposition. So we are number two.

I guess they should start looking at number 3 huh?

 

[jetfo]

The current blended ratio of 200's/700's will be frozen. (Bring on a 700 and our pay rate ever so slightly increases). That's not going to happen with this deal, thus we would be flying the 900's with a freeze in the blended rate resulting in less money.

Sure, there are furloughed mainline pilots flying them here.

I think that was my main point all along, "the pay rate ever so slightly increases," is all that we are talking about.

PSA, nor any other pilot group, under present circumstances, will achieve substantially higher pay for the 900's.

The reason is that that our 700s rates are just under or even above industry average for flying this size of equipment and even very close to the E190 rates.

Under what rationale would you demand higher rates then?

It would seem like we should command a higher rate to fly more seats that generate more revenue, but we exist in a competitive market and the market ultimately sets the rate.

BoilerUp would argue that they kept the bar high at Air Wisconsin and that PSA should do the same. Well, that would be great if everyone would do that, but they won't. We know for a fact that Mesa is flying the 900s for less than PSA is flying a mix of 200/700s.

Also, keep in mind that the rates that Air Wisconsin is holding the line on are not currently utilized. Their 146's are gone, same at Mesaba. Do you see a pattern here?

It will be interesting to see is what happens when more and more carriers operate 700/900s and E170/175s and what the average rate will be and if any carrier will be able to command a substantial premium for flying them. I doubt it.

As stated before, both Skywest and Comair, both with formerly decent contracts operate 700s at 200 pay rates.

Even the Compass pay scale for the 900s or the E170/175 for 5/10/15 year captains is $68.55/$80.01/$92.78. Current rates at PSA for 5/10/15 year captains is $68.58/$78.94/$89.23.

Where does anyone see much room for improving the pay rates at PSA or anywhere else, when these are the average market rates for that type of equipment? We are not flying A320s here!

 

[ex j-41]

The reason is that that our 700s rates are just under or even above industry average for flying this size of equipment and even very close to the E190 rates.

You are talking Captain pay only. The F/O pay is very substandard.
$21.85/hr vs $41 for mainline. The only reason an F/O will vote Yes is because he/she would have the illusion that they will upgrade. All it means for the rest of us is that we go from reserve of 10 days off to a line of 11.
Give us something in writing....

They are asking us to vote on a contract change that can dramatically change our careers and maybe the industry. Growth has to be in writing and writen by an independent lawyer.

Wait a minute i have an idea....We will all vote YES if management takes a 30% pay cut and tosses away their pensions. They we know that they are in it for the company not themselves.

 

[mamba20]

You know what? If they say that they are going to shut the place down if we dont take the 900's with the current rate then so be it. Close this ********************ty ass joke of an airline down.

And for you Sig, and Sniper, PSA didnt screw PDT or ALG FACT! You guys hung us out to dry first. Try not to get blown over on the north ramp ok?

 

[jetfo]

You know what? If they say that they are going to shut the place down if we dont take the 900's with the current rate then so be it. Close this ********************ty ass joke of an airline down.

And for you Sig, and Sniper, PSA didnt screw PDT or ALG FACT! You guys hung us out to dry first. Try not to get blown over on the north ramp ok?

If you hate it so much at PSA, why don't you just resign and go somewhere else?

You are right about the PDT/ALG comment though!

 

[whatfuelpolicy]

You know what? If they say that they are going to shut the place down if we dont take the 900's with the current rate then so be it. Close this ********************ty ass joke of an airline down.

And for you Sig, and Sniper, PSA didnt screw PDT or ALG FACT! You guys hung us out to dry first. Try not to get blown over on the north ramp ok?

It's tools like you that make this airline ********************ty.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Oh sure. They're not A320s now. Not until they decide to rename it the RJ320 and guys like you agree to fly them on a blended rate with the CRJ.

 

[jetfo]

You are talking Captain pay only. The F/O pay is very substandard.
$21.85/hr vs $41 for mainline.

You are omitting some important details here! First year pay at US Airways on the narrowbodies, except the E190, is $25/hour. Three more dollars for flying 70-100 more seats than you do!

At Continental and Northwest, it is $30/hour, United is $31/hour, I could go on. Fact is FO pay at the regionals sucks and first year pay at most carriers is almost always bad.

 

[jetfo]

Oh sure. They're not A320s now. Not until they decide to rename it the RJ320 and guys like you agree to fly them on a blended rate with the CRJ.

Bender:

Why don't you tell us how you feel about the substandard pay to fly the A320 at JetBlue, nevermind the DC9 replacement E190 pay?

Oh, I forgot, US, UAL, DL, NWA ... I guess all airline pilots are flying for substandard pay now.

 

[paddlehigh]

jack says all work no play

 

[ex j-41]

Ok $28 vs $44. 2nd year!

Top pay for F/O is $36 Vs $52
Takes 7 years to get there.
Takes 6 years to get to TOS with US Airways....

You are omitting some important details here! First year pay at US Airways on the narrowbodies, except the E190, is $25/hour. Three more dollars for flying 70-100 more seats than you do!

Can't buy this one....Nobody is going to start year 1 at US Air on anything other than the E190. That is why the pay is $41/hr. Those numbers are there to take up space. Should have used a "-" instead.

Pay for F/O is horrible. If you really want a yes vote then this has got to change. I understand that we are not mainline but you have to realize that for 200 days a year in crappy hotels eating airport food has to be worth more than $20k a year? Regardless of airplane size.

"SHOW ME THE MONEY"​

 

[EDUC8-or]

Ok $28 vs $44. 2nd year!

Top pay for F/O is $36 Vs $52
Takes 7 years to get there.
Takes 6 years to get to TOS with US Airways....



Can't buy this one....Nobody is going to start year 1 at US Air on anything other than the E190. That is why the pay is $41/hr. Those numbers are there to take up space. Should have used a "-" instead.

Pay for F/O is horrible. If you really want a yes vote then this has got to change. I understand that we are not mainline but you have to realize that for 200 days a year in crappy hotels eating airport food has to be worth more than $20k a year? Regardless of airplane size.

"SHOW ME THE MONEY"​

I'm in total agreement. I love to fly and I didn't get into this industry for the money. But living paycheck to paycheck going from hotel to hotel 18 nights a month in some industrial park in BFE has to be worth something.

I always laugh when I hear that our payscale is comparable to others. That's if you look at the Senior captain payscales. Look at the FO pay, it's substandard for the regional level. Hmmm, I wonder who negotiated our last contract.

 

[nethan]

Hmmm, I wonder who negotiated our last contract.

I don't think we can blame that one even on the senior pilots. They all voted no

 

[LoveGun]

PSA FOs would make less than $.50 per passenger if we agree to these 900 rates. That's sick. A vending machine placed in row one would earn more than a PSA FO. Think before you vote.

 

[EDUC8-or]

I don't think we can blame that one even on the senior pilots. They all voted no

Shouldn't you be playing with your Roomba or something? I think the people doing the negotiating were pretty senior.

 

[Weasil]

I don't think we can blame that one even on the senior pilots. They all voted no

The current pay scale was not voted in by the pilots, it was rejected in a vote. THe MEC installed this agreement in a midnight session under the threat that PDT had agreed to fly the planes for the money the company wanted to pay, and that all the planes would go there if the MEC did not agree to it.

Perhaps my memory is alittle fuzzy but that's how I remember it.

 

[Sawmill]

Why do all pilots continiously beatch about their pay? I can guarantee you that if every airline pilot went to work tomorrow and started making twice, or even three times what they are making today, they would still complain. And we moan if we only get 12 days off a month?!? Last time I checked, there were 8 weekend days in a month (give or take) that every other working stiff is happy with. Deregulation is the only reason the industry is in the condition it is in. Its going to take a long time for the airline industry to stabilize (if that is even possible) and I have news folks, It is NEVER going to be like it was in the good old days. Things change...so you better get used to it. The Delta pilots who have taken 60% pay cuts have realized this...and they will never see that kind of money again, or their retirement they all planned on or that matter. If it is that bad for the old timers, what possibly makes you think things will be any better for you? The way I see it, you have two choices: 1) Shut up and live with it, or 2) Quit. Oh, and if you think the union will help you out, well, think again. Why would they have even the least bit of interest in helping such a small group? You can count on the union for some free pizza once a year and thats about it. If I sound disgruntled or angry, Im not. As a matter of fact, I have never been in such a good frame of mind, which started about 2 weeks ago...just about the time I quit coincidently. Its funny too...In those 2 weeks, I already made as much money as I would have flying for the airlines for 2 months! Circling back to my original question, I guess I can see why pilots beatch so much...they are smart men and women, but have absolutely no common sense...I guess Id pi55 and moan too if I was not smart enough to make an obvious observation and act on it in my own best interest. Just my humble opinion...I do not mean to offend anyone, and if I did, I am truly sorry. See ya.

 

[Weasil]

we moan if we only get 12 days off a month?!? Last time I checked, there were 8 weekend days in a month (give or take) that every other working stiff is happy with. .

the problem with this comparison is that those other people go home 16 hours out of each "work day" (assuming 8 hr work day) whereas we spend the whole 24 hours away in a hotel someplace away from our families.

 

[PSAChiefPilots]

Jetfo, I have to admire your confidence, however you sound like you have "inside" sources and info. How certain are you that infact these will be growth aircraft - do you have a copy of the proposal?

Again I say it, Parker wants to cut back on the 50's, MESA is gone with the 50's, TSA have some and CHQ, like AWAC have binding contracts that mandate the use (in CHQ case 70's & 50's) for USAir in return for the money they pumped in.

PSA are a WO why not give the 90's to PSA and remove some of the excess 50 seaters? If I was Parker thats EXACTLY what I would do, kill two birds with one stone - less 50's more 90's - simple.

I posted the proposal in the Ops Co-ord office in the PSA (and PDT) Crew room in CLT.
PSACPSP

 

[Crzipilot]

Everybody has been bashing us for years (rightfully so) and now let's see what kind of decision PSA makes...looks like they may not have any "moral high ground" anymore

Sorry you Mesa Puke, but EVERYONE will have moral high ground against you guys. Even if the decision is made to take these airplanes, our capt rates by 10/1/07 will be HIGHER than your 900 rates. (Oh sorry, that's a 700/200 blend) And we will only have about 15 a/c at that point. In addition, we are in this position due to CRAP CONTRACT LIFT carriers such as Mesa. And the wet behind the ears Bastards that flocked over there to fly for them. Your product sucks (commute too much on them, couldn't tell if it was english your f/a was speaking during the demo, hell she couldn't even explain that they were late, and wanted everyone w/o a tight connection to stay seated so those that did could get off. It was horendous, You couldn't understand her gibberish english. Have witnessed numerous assinine speaches by your capts, and you look like ******************** through the terminals too, as well as the multitude of missconnects due to MTX or No Crew available on clear days. Seeing F/A's in UAL uniforms because they were plucked from overnights on UAL system, based in ORD to fly the US system. (And I will give them this, they were the only two I've seen that show any sense of professionalism, and did a damn good job considering they were working their 16th hour)
I don't ever want to hear about a moral high road from the likes of Mesa, That company is the likes of cockroaches which have been feeding off the bottom for years. I don't care that you've thrown out your MEC/Negotiating Comm. I don't care you have a contract up in 2 years. You should have done this 6 years ago. You should have researched what a crap place it was, and taken the Moral High Road and never went.

So untill your pilot group stops being the basis of the whipsaw, so many other carriers have been up against. We shouldn't hear a PEEP out of you.....


-rant off....

 

[Sig]

Sorry you Mesa Puke
-rant off....

BANG ON, crzi. Perfect post. Good luck, folks- and grab the popcorn.

 

[Victor Meldrew]

Everybody has been bashing us for years (rightfully so) and now let's see what kind of decision PSA makes...looks like they may not have any "moral high ground" anymore

This will be an interesting one.