PSA offered 900's

[PSAChiefPilots]

So when do the leases on the 50s expire? I'm asking you jetfo and PropPiedmont.

I'll chime in...17 years!
PSACPSP

 

[jetfo]

Well, I just listened to the PSA code-a-phone. Its true, you were offered 900's. Well there goes the 900 pay scale. If you guys accept those aircraft under your current payscales, you will be no better than Mesa. Grow Balls and if it goes to a vote, vote NO! AWAC doesn't want them unless we get the BAE-146 payscale moved over, please set the bar high.

Great idea, PSA turns them down so you can go back to the negotiating table, get another bite at the apple, and you guys agree to lower CRJ900 rates!

Sure, let's give you guys 20-40 CRJ900s. Why not, we have already ceded some of our best routes to you guys! Let's keep giving!

There are at least 350 FOs on your property that have realized that movement is coming to a screeching halt after the exodus last year. They, along with many of your captains sitting reserve in ORF/DCA/PHL would do almost anything to get growth aircraft, including giving up on the RJ85 pay scale if it were put up for a vote!

You did it before in 03 and you'll do it again, just like everyone else when it comes to their position versus the alternative!

 

[ex j-41]

Again, PSA's DO, Maybe the CP's, upper management and maybe a few others are going to get a raise if we get 900's on property. They are going to do everything in their power to get them here. A little extra money to the F/O's is not going to break the bank nor kill the deal. A $5 raise for the F/O's would equate to $330,000/year extra if we got 20 a/c. That is peanuts and the D/O, TK, Parker....would gladly pay up if it comes to that. How many times do you do a CLT to GSO? CLT to FAY? CLT to AVL? Right now we are making less than $20 a leg. How horrific is that? The $5/hr raise would mean nothing to management and the bean counters.



Figures based on average of 9 hrs a day, 365 days a year.
The daily hour rate may go up if our routes are longer.

 

[BoilerUP]

jetfo, it is painfully obvious that you don't know a fukcing thing about Air Wisconsin or its pilot group by making such an ignorant statement.

The Air Wisconsin MEC and pilot group have spoken loud and clear - we will not take concessions for growth, and we will most certainly not take concessions to steal away someone else's flying. We didn't do it to bid on Northwest flying, we didn't do it to bid on Midwest flying, and we won't do it to take PSA's flying. Air Wisconsin pilots are not your enemy.

I have friends at PSA and I wish the best for you and your group. This decision is a difficult one for you and your coworkers. Having said that, I would not fly 900s for those proposed rates. I may be one of those junior FOs you think you can predict, but I know my value and I am worth more than those payrates; your pilot group is too.

Good luck...you'll need it...

 

[Kenny]

Great idea, PSA turns them down so you can go back to the negotiating table, get another bite at the apple, and you guys agree to lower CRJ900 rates!

Sure, let's give you guys 20-40 CRJ900s. Why not, we have already ceded some of our best routes to you guys! Let's keep giving!

There are at least 350 FOs on your property that have realized that movement is coming to a screeching halt after the exodus last year. They, along with many of your captains sitting reserve in ORF/DCA/PHL would do almost anything to get growth aircraft, including giving up on the RJ85 pay scale if it were put up for a vote!

You did it before in 03 and you'll do it again, just like everyone else when it comes to their position versus the alternative!

Ok jeftfo, I'll bite;

Firstly, don't judge AWAC and its pilot group by the standards of others. We've said no to a 90 seat pay rate any less than our current BAe146 rate 3 times now. So what makes you think that we'd turn around now and lower them for aircraft most don't care whether we get or not. BTW have you seen our 146 rate?

Sure it'd be great to have them but once that door is closed I don't care how many people are the other side of it. What I do care about is my paycheck and I'm not going to take a pay cut for larger aircraft. People are leaving and the upgrades are hovering around the 2.7 - 3 year mark, yet our fleet has shrunk. So it's not as if our FO's have nothing to look forward to.

As far as ceding some of your best routes are concerned, you can have them. Philly is a $hithole and flying up and down the east coast is about as enjoyable as a serious dose of the clap. It may also be worth pointing out that, as Parker himself stated, without a certain $125 mill there probably wouldn't have been a USAir for AWA to merge with. Hence no PSA! The pilots at AWAC had no idea about taking over some of your precious flying, so don't vent your frustrations at us.

Yes we did take concessions in '03 but that was a very different situation. Now we have a 9 year contract and as the saying goes; fool me once....... Well, I'm sure you know the rest.

We really aren't the enemy.

 

[slam_clicker]

EDUC8 is right. These A/C belong on mainline. ONE THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED pilots on furlough from mainline. Many of us were hired at USAir or Piedmont 17 years ago and are on the street. WTF, over !

So why then did YOUR fellow pilots relax scope? This would never have happened if scope had been protected.

 

[Crzipilot]

Per the LOA's any 900 can't be configured for more than 90 seats of revenue......so no...won't goto 100 seats...

Also, a valid point was brought up elsewhere. Nothing has been said anywhere, where Mgt. has actually offered to negotiate. This offer might be a Yes/No question. In that case, if it's No, I would predict they would quickly goto mesa...

 

[ex j-41]

Am i correct in my thinking that the new J4J people would be first year pay?
Neone know that rate?

 

[TCBKING]

Sure, let's give you guys 20-40 CRJ900s. Why not, we have already ceded some of our best routes to you guys! Let's keep giving!

You would not have a job if AWAC didnt bail out US AIR. Guess where that money came from.... Yep, thats right, AWAC. The Pilot group that has a BIG HAIRY PAIR OF BALLS. Please dont respond until yours drop. Im on reserve. I dont care about growth. I am flying up to to 94 hrs a month. Yeah, I need more growth like a hole in the head

IGNORANCE IS KILLING THIS INDUSTRY.

You think the Majors will be any better in the future with this constant BS? I doubt it. The same morons will want growth instead of putting food on their families tables.

 

[jetfo]

jetfo, it is painfully obvious that you don't know a fukcing thing about Air Wisconsin or its pilot group by making such an ignorant statement.

The Air Wisconsin MEC and pilot group have spoken loud and clear - we will not take concessions for growth, and we will most certainly not take concessions to steal away someone else's flying. We didn't do it to bid on Northwest flying, we didn't do it to bid on Midwest flying, and we won't do it to take PSA's flying. Air Wisconsin pilots are not your enemy.

I have friends at PSA and I wish the best for you and your group. This decision is a difficult one for you and your coworkers. Having said that, I would not fly 900s for those proposed rates. I may be one of those junior FOs you think you can predict, but I know my value and I am worth more than those payrates; your pilot group is too.

Good luck...you'll need it...

Boilerup:

First, I respect your opinion and agree most of the time.

I know a little about your pilot group and I do have some friends there and I wish the best for them. I have friends at Comair, Skywest, ExpressJet, Pinnacle, Republic, and on and on.

I don't blame them to do in what is in their best interest. I wouldn't expect anyone to do anything else.

I don't think Air Wisconsin is our, or anyone else's enemy. I do think you are our competitor for feeder services to AAA, and you have a seat on the board.

You have hired a boatload of new FO's lately, since you lost a ton of pilots after you guys lost the United flying. You have got a bunch of guys commuting to the east coast that hate it, and I don't blame them.

You guys probably have the industry leading contract, either before or after Horizon, particularly concerning FO wages and work rules, and I admire that and I hope you guys can hold on to it.

It is also a fact, that movement at Air Wisconsin has slowed dramatically since the hiring binge that started about a year ago. I would expect your management team and your MEC to do everything they can to get more flying on your property, and again, I don't blame you. We are doing the same.

You state that you are going after Midwest Airlines regional flying. That's fine, but face the fact that you will be taken growth away from the wholly owned Skyway that was planning on getting that flying and had orders in for ERJ145s.

That's fine too, but you will be taken flying from Skyway then, won't you?

I don't disagree that what we all are flying for is pathetic for what we do and for the responsibility that we have. But, I don't control the markeplace and the rates across the airline industry have fallen precipitously over the past 5 years. We have to face that and make the best of it until we can negotiate the contracts across the industry back up to where they should be.

If PSA passes on the flying, Mesa or GJets will pick it up, I assure you and we have not helped but hastened the race to the bottom, for they have worse compensation and worse work rules than we have.

 

[PSAChiefPilots]

Again, PSA's DO, Maybe the CP's, upper management and maybe a few others are going to get a raise if we get 900's on property. They are going to do everything in their power to get them here. A little extra money to the F/O's is not going to break the bank nor kill the deal. A $5 raise for the F/O's would equate to $330,000/year extra if we got 20 a/c. That is peanuts and the D/O, TK, Parker....would gladly pay up if it comes to that. How many times do you do a CLT to GSO? CLT to FAY? CLT to AVL? Right now we are making less than $20 a leg. How horrific is that? The $5/hr raise would mean nothing to management and the bean counters.



Figures based on average of 9 hrs a day, 365 days a year.
The daily hour rate may go up if our routes are longer.

If you knew as much as you spoke, you would know that the CP's pay is based on the Contract so there would be no pay raise for us either, You may want to get better informed before you speak...

I've tried to stay out of this but This was pitched as a YES or NO deal, there is no negotiation...I was there, I can't figure out why the MEC didn't drop this...And on the slide show presentation, the next step is go to PDT with the same deal.

PSACPSP

 

[PSAChiefPilots]

Am i correct in my thinking that the new J4J people would be first year pay?
Neone know that rate?

Yes, first year, and open your contract (and Side Letters) and get informed!
PSACPSP

 

[BoilerUP]

You state that you are going after Midwest Airlines regional flying. That's fine, but face the fact that you will be taken growth away from the wholly owned Skyway that was planning on getting that flying and had orders in for ERJ145s.

That's fine too, but you will be taken flying from Skyway then, won't you?

You bring up a good point, which begets another good point.

If, and thats a *very big* if, AWAC is awarded any form of flying for Midwest, it will have been for reasons other than pilot payrates. The same will be said for NWA or any other RFP thrown our company's way. If awarded, our management will have struck a deal independent of pilot expenses and our pilots will not have "bought" that flying in the form of lower payrates at the detriment of another carrier's pilot group (Skyway, in this instance). I have no idea what Skyway's 50 seat rates are/were but I would imagine they are lower than AWAC.

Was Skyway counting on getting 50 seaters, especially with the number of Djets sitting in MYR hoping to fly again? I haven't read anything on this board about that, and I was unaware they ever had an order for 145s. How big was said order and when was it cancelled?

Hiring at AWAC has slowed because the ridiculous level of attrition has slowed. The company has shrunk yet upgrades & hiring continue. Pilots at all levels continue to leave for majors/LCCs, fractionals, corporate jobs, and a few get out of flying all together. Movement has somewhat slowed, but it has far from stopped. It is entirely possible as the senior west coast 146 pilots grow weary of the commute they will retire en masse (probably exactly what the company wants), once again accelerating movement.

We as regional pilots are already at the unfortunate will of the bean counters when it comes to our flying being put up for bid...there is absolutely no reason for us to give them additional power by accepting lower compensation.

 

[jetfo]

Ok jeftfo, I'll bite;

Firstly, don't judge AWAC and its pilot group by the standards of others. We've said no to a 90 seat pay rate any less than our current BAe146 rate 3 times now. So what makes you think that we'd turn around now and lower them for aircraft most don't care whether we get or not. BTW have you seen our 146 rate?

Sure it'd be great to have them but once that door is closed I don't care how many people are the other side of it. What I do care about is my paycheck and I'm not going to take a pay cut for larger aircraft. People are leaving and the upgrades are hovering around the 2.7 - 3 year mark, yet our fleet has shrunk. So it's not as if our FO's have nothing to look forward to.

As far as ceding some of your best routes are concerned, you can have them. Philly is a $hithole and flying up and down the east coast is about as enjoyable as a serious dose of the clap. It may also be worth pointing out that, as Parker himself stated, without a certain $125 mill there probably wouldn't have been a USAir for AWA to merge with. Hence no PSA! The pilots at AWAC had no idea about taking over some of your precious flying, so don't vent your frustrations at us.

Yes we did take concessions in '03 but that was a very different situation. Now we have a 9 year contract and as the saying goes; fool me once....... Well, I'm sure you know the rest.

We really aren't the enemy.

Kenny:

As I previously stated to Boilerup, I never said you guys were our enemy, just our competitor.

You are also in the curious position or being a major shareholder in LCC, although I hear that AWAC is selling off some of it's interest.

I was quite happy when AWAC bought into US Airways, but let's not forget, it was a survival move for AWAC as much as it was a help for US Airways. I think it has turned out to our mutual benefit.

As far as your 146 rate, it is pretty good, but not as good as Horizon's rate for their 700s. I don't blame you guys for wanting to hold on to it for if and when larger equipment happens to come to your property again. But, at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if it were negotiated down either.

Everyone else has done it, and I won't bother repeating the list. The one's that haven't caved to concessions have often not fared too well in today's harsh environment.

Let's also keep in mind that you management team treats your pilot group much kinder than what we experience with ours. Someone posted that what would likely happen if we said no that the next ax that would fall would be on all of our 200s. I wouldn't put it past them. This may be a deal we can't refuse if we want to survive.

PSA is in a substantially different situation than Air Wisconsin. You guys bought your rights to the flying for a specific period of time. At PSA, as a wholly owned, they can do anything they want. They would sell of off at an asset sale, like MidAtlantic, at the drop of a hat if it suited them. You guys no doubt are in a better position and in a better bargaining position.

Good Luck!

Particularly flying out of PHL, but you guys are block or better right? So, ka-ching ;-)

 

[jetfo]

Y
Was Skyway counting on getting 50 seaters, especially with the number of Djets sitting in MYR hoping to fly again? I haven't read anything on this board about that, and I was unaware they ever had an order for 145s. How big was said order and when was it cancelled?

I believe the order was for 10 ERJ145s and it was cancelled very recently when they began to reconsider getting more Dojets.

By the way please note what the PSACPSP posted moments ago regarding how this was pitched to us. Take it or leave it! We'll go to PDT or wherever we have to next.

We don't have three well meaning Amigos here, but we do have three good CPs.

 

[CallmeJB]

...and trip rigged and duty rigged, ka-ching ka-ching

 

[jetfo]

...and trip rigged and duty rigged, ka-ching ka-ching

Cool!

 

[ex j-41]

you would know that the CP's pay is based on the Contract so there would be no pay raise for us either,

I said "Maybe".

Yes, first year, and open your contract (and Side Letters) and get informed!

Oh i know. My sarcasim doesn't show well on screen.

Hey Jet F/O....Give me 3 good reasons why we should fly 900's for 3 or more years for the current rate. And "They will go to Mesa" can't be one of them. My mind is open.....

 

[CallmeJB]

Cool!

Hey, not trying to waste your time. You seem interested in comparing companies. You also seem interested in having your facts straight.

There's more to a contract than payrates....

 

[BoilerUP]

We don't have three well meaning Amigos here, but we do have three good CPs.

I've had the good pleasure to meet two of the three on multiple occasions, and I would agree with you there.