PSA offered 900's

[mamba20]

How do you figure that? You guys are the ones who have set the bar so low in the first place. So from here "our moral high ground" dosent look nearly as bad. Hows that 8 days off a month working out for you?

 

[sniper]

Alright guys, here's how I think this will play out.

This is a pretty big multi million dollar deal and its not going to be put in the hands of a bunch of pilots. Lets look at where the airplanes could possibly go. 1) PDT. I seriously cant see that happening. They would have to train the whole of the pilot group which would costs millions in the end. Not economical. Plus the DHC-8 has a niche market and PDT is making money hands over fist. I heard that the Dash pays for itself after like the 5th of the month or something like that.

2) MESA. I doubt this too. Parker has expressed that when Mesa's contract is up he wants to get rid of them. Not just that but there are complaints about this company daily from passengers, mainline etc. Look at the cancelation rate from these guys. They are lucky they can find their way to the airport. Just ask any of the commuters who rely on mesa (my most sincere and extreme condolences.) They jets arent going to go to Mesa when in the end they will be more expensive to operate with piss poor performance.

3) PSA. Makes perfect sense. Already an established CRJ operator. We have all gone through the 700/900 differences (if you havent you soon will) training and all that would be required is to do IOE on the 900. By far the most economical choice just from a training standpoint. Our operating costs are tiny compared to Mesa who gets paid regardless and our completion factor is much better. No contest there.

Bottom line, the airplanes are going to come here no matter what we vote. This is all smoke and mirrors to try to make it as cheap as possible so that KH Rose, and TK can all get better raises and bonuses. I'm sure these debates between the company and the union are going to get nasty and there will be lots of "the sky is falling!" BS stories going around. We CANNOT buckle and let the scumbads in management pull the wool over our eyes. This company isnt going to tank based on us not taking these airplanes. They are coming here regardless so keep that in the back of your mind. Dont let Rose, KH and TK get a raise without you getting one too.

]







All 900's should go to mainline period.

 

[sniper]

How do you figure that? You guys are the ones who have set the bar so low in the first place. So from here "our moral high ground" dosent look nearly as bad. Hows that 8 days off a month working out for you?

Your Mec has fkd Piedmont and ALG.


Oh, I forgot you were flight Instructing at that time.......

 

[sniper]

Flying the 900's for 50 seat rates? We would have to change your call sign then from 'BlueStreak' to 'BrownStreak'!!!! ;-)

Bluejuice sounds better

 

[LandRoverNut]

This is exactly where alpa (national) needs to step in and control the situation. (TSA/G*jets, another I believe and every other whipsaw that's occured) Set a nationwide rate / or cost of operting per aircraft. Whether it's through pay rates, vacation amounts/ rigs / etc etc.....And not allow a carrier to go below that.
If PSA had the safety of knowing that they could turn these aircraft away, without another carrier coming in and agreeing to do it, there wouldn't be any argument as to what to do. But the current situation, where MESA has 900's currently operating on the property, one would fathom and No vote would send these things quicker than you can say it, straight to Mesa or somewhere, and I would put money on it that pilot group wouldn't think too hard on taking on the a/c. Get all the MEC's together and agree to do it for X amount min. and you negate the whipsaw. It is this situation that allows management to come in with a straight face, and give a take it or leave it offer. They know they have 5 other whores, they can go proposition. So we are number two.

Amen!!! ALPA National needs to help all of us out. The main line guys, the J4J's, Furl. guys, and all the regionals and come up with a pay scale and work rules min. fast before this industry is forever changed.

Crzipilot, you speak the truth, this is one of the best posts on here. We need to use this board to unite fellow pilots and stand up to corporate america to save OUR indusrty. Like the Delta pilots said before giving in, this is our airline without us it doesn't run. Let get together and send a message. Can't we all just get along and work together! Sorry for the soap box but I love my job but hate the industry.

 

[ABITRATOR]

I here that D'Angelo, Drizzle I did learn some since in that time, I applied at MESA, my logic, make the same as I do here as an FO but be a Captain over there in a year and log PIC in those 20 nice new 900's that will be delivered there soon and move to a Major.

How the hell are you going to to move to the MAjor if you start flying there routes in the same size aircraft they fly for 1/8 of their pay.

 

[EDUC8-or]

All 900's should go to mainline period.

Agreed, but it's too late for that. Mainline is getting slapped in the face (90 seat jets at PSA with mainline pilots on the street). PSA is getting slapped in the face (fly the 90 seaters for LESS than 70 seaters AND a pay freeze). PDT is getting slapped in the face (more jets for the other W/O who they feel already stabbed them in the back).

What a crappy situation. I'm getting the feeling our pilot group may not have a big say in this one, but we shall see...

Like I've said before, 90 seaters don't belong at the regional level. I hope we do turn them down but I'd be willing to bet a couple rounds that someone else would love to snatch them up.

 

[ABITRATOR]

it already is respectable. Everyone will just laugh and take your flying as you sit there "trying to make a difference". It won't do you one bit of good. Capitalism is beautiful

D'Angelo You are just another one of those selfish pilots out there. You don't mine selling your soul to the devil for 1 million today instead of working hard and going to heaven and enjoy everlasting wealth. Idiot.......

 

[Sig]

1) PDT. I seriously cant see that happening. They would have to train the whole of the pilot group which would costs millions in the end. Not economical.

Hey, we don't want 'em! But for the umpteenth trillionth time, THAT's exactly what happened with you guys! You were flying relatively new-to-property Dorks, and whizzbang presto, you got the jets. It has happened before, so don't count it out just because it's a bad idea. How do you think we'd feel if AWAC dusted off their DHC8 cert to play ball for some -400s?

Wolf was a two fisted gibbering gimp of a CEO, though, unlike Doug E. Fresh. The jets would never come to Piedmont.

I'm looking at my contract right now- yup, them's jet numbers (ERJ, CRJ, SJ) for pay. You went a leetle bit lower than ours, so ya gots them. Fact.

Those are teeth marks in your arse, and they have "feef whore departure" all over them.

 

[ABITRATOR]

It's a nice thought, but you won't change a thing. Only a unified ALPA that establishes pay rates for number of seat flown across the board will ever change things for the better, followed by brand scope.

Yes but ALPA represents us. If we all start make posivtive statements, such as turning down such offers, then we just might light the fire under their butts. And if they still fail to take a stand, then we find new representation.

 

[jetfo]

]

All 900's should go to mainline period.

Yet another philosopher!

 

[jetfo]

Agreed, but it's too late for that. Mainline is getting slapped in the face (90 seat jets at PSA with mainline pilots on the street). PSA is getting slapped in the face (fly the 90 seaters for LESS than 70 seaters AND a pay freeze). PDT is getting slapped in the face (more jets for the other W/O who they feel already stabbed them in the back).

EDUC8-or:

You're not educating too clearly! How in the world do interpret the offer to mean flying the 900s for less than the 700s?

And, actually mainline pilots are flying them, although unfortunately not at mainline.

 

[ABITRATOR]

The next step for PSA negotiations will go somewhat like this:

Management will say, "If the PSA pilot group doesn't agree to fly the -900 at current payrates then that is just fine."

Next they'll say, "Due to current economic conditions and the continued rise in the price of oil, we have determined that operating a fleet of 50 seat RJs is no longer economically viable. Starting next month PSA will begin returning CRJ 200s to the lessor."

And lastly, "The CRJ-900 flying is still available for PSA to secure. In order to prevent the furlough of half of our pilot group it is strongly recommended that we bid on this flying at our current rates. Your job security and futures are in your own hands, we know you will do what you think is right and best for the pilot group as a whole."

And that's when they should all say, "so be it , shut the company down." PSA is not going to operate with 14 700s.

 

[ex j-41]

Well JetFO you know where i stand in regards to the low ticket prices and the fact that our salary's are subsidizing the ticket prices. But did you know that if the Cpt and F/O were each given a $5 raise it would work out to $0.11 more for each passenger/hr. 90 seats/$10
The fares would only have to raise ELEVEN cents/hr for us to get a raise. Is this unreasonable?
We are getting taken advantage of and it has to stop.
It will stop with a "NO" vote!

 

[jetfo]

Yes but ALPA represents us. If we all start make posivtive statements, such as turning down such offers, then we just might light the fire under their butts. And if they still fail to take a stand, then we find new representation.

How often have I heard that one, and nothing ever changes!

ALPA represents active mainline pilots, and primarily the senior ones, because that is where the money is!

Things will change when someone convinces the ALPA leadership that it is in their best interest to effect change.

 

[BoilerUP]

But did you know that if the Cpt and F/O were each given a $5 raise it would work out to $0.11 more for each passenger/hr. 90 seats/$10
The fares would only have to raise ELEVEN cents/hr for us to get a raise. Is this unreasonable?
We are getting taken advantage of and it has to stop.
It will stop with a "NO" vote!

Quoted for truth.

 

[EDUC8-or]

EDUC8-or:

You're not educating too clearly! How in the world do interpret the offer to mean flying the 900s for less than the 700s?

And, actually mainline pilots are flying them, although unfortunately not at mainline.

The current blended ratio of 200's/700's will be frozen. (Bring on a 700 and our pay rate ever so slightly increases). That's not going to happen with this deal, thus we would be flying the 900's with a freeze in the blended rate resulting in less money.

Sure, there are furloughed mainline pilots flying them here.

 

[jetfo]

This is exactly where alpa (national) needs to step in and control the situation.

(TSA/G*jets, another I believe and every other whipsaw that's occured) Set a nationwide rate / or cost of operting per aircraft. Whether it's through pay rates, vacation amounts/ rigs / etc etc.....And not allow a carrier to go below that.

If PSA had the safety of knowing that they could turn these aircraft away, without another carrier coming in and agreeing to do it, there wouldn't be any argument as to what to do. But the current situation, where MESA has 900's currently operating on the property, one would fathom and No vote would send these things quicker than you can say it, straight to Mesa or somewhere, and I would put money on it that pilot group wouldn't think too hard on taking on the a/c. Get all the MEC's together and agree to do it for X amount min. and you negate the whipsaw. It is this situation that allows management to come in with a straight face, and give a take it or leave it offer. They know they have 5 other whores, they can go proposition. So we are number two.

Amen!!! ALPA National needs to help all of us out. The main line guys, the J4J's, Furl. guys, and all the regionals and come up with a pay scale and work rules min. fast before this industry is forever changed.

This is the only possible solution folks, Crzi and Landrover are absolutely right! Nothing short of that will stop the whip sawing and the race to the bottom!

 

[ex j-41]

They know they have 5 other whores, they can go proposition. So we are number two.

I guess they should start looking at number 3 huh?

 

[jetfo]

The current blended ratio of 200's/700's will be frozen. (Bring on a 700 and our pay rate ever so slightly increases). That's not going to happen with this deal, thus we would be flying the 900's with a freeze in the blended rate resulting in less money.

Sure, there are furloughed mainline pilots flying them here.

I think that was my main point all along, "the pay rate ever so slightly increases," is all that we are talking about.

PSA, nor any other pilot group, under present circumstances, will achieve substantially higher pay for the 900's.

The reason is that that our 700s rates are just under or even above industry average for flying this size of equipment and even very close to the E190 rates.

Under what rationale would you demand higher rates then?

It would seem like we should command a higher rate to fly more seats that generate more revenue, but we exist in a competitive market and the market ultimately sets the rate.

BoilerUp would argue that they kept the bar high at Air Wisconsin and that PSA should do the same. Well, that would be great if everyone would do that, but they won't. We know for a fact that Mesa is flying the 900s for less than PSA is flying a mix of 200/700s.

Also, keep in mind that the rates that Air Wisconsin is holding the line on are not currently utilized. Their 146's are gone, same at Mesaba. Do you see a pattern here?

It will be interesting to see is what happens when more and more carriers operate 700/900s and E170/175s and what the average rate will be and if any carrier will be able to command a substantial premium for flying them. I doubt it.

As stated before, both Skywest and Comair, both with formerly decent contracts operate 700s at 200 pay rates.

Even the Compass pay scale for the 900s or the E170/175 for 5/10/15 year captains is $68.55/$80.01/$92.78. Current rates at PSA for 5/10/15 year captains is $68.58/$78.94/$89.23.

Where does anyone see much room for improving the pay rates at PSA or anywhere else, when these are the average market rates for that type of equipment? We are not flying A320s here!