Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan SLI!

[bri5150]

I was wondering why none of the three final proposals for the ISL said anything about furloughed pilots. Any ideas?

Because it is a forgone conclusion they will be stapled to the end. Not that I completely agree with it, but I am pretty sure there aren't any mergers that have NOT done that. Is that a double negative? Ugh, you know what I mean.

 

[bri5150]

Yay, how many pages can we get this? We have another week. His decision will be on or before May 20th as per union email.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Yay, how many pages can we get this? We have another week. His decision will be on or before May 20th as per union email.

and then there will be another thread that will reach 10 pages in the first 24 hours.

 

[sinkrate]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

 

[shortbus driver]

Did you guys hear we are buying TWA? I wonder how they will do in our SLI? They did well at American...oh wait...

 

[xjgearbtch]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. (Tail numbers please, cause I never flew an PX till B-'s arrived later) Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. (Source? this is news to me) The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

 

[bri5150]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

Some people don't seem to understand the difference between taking aircraft from another carrier (via purchasing the carrier in our current case), and being awarded flying another carrier did by mainline. Two completely different situations.

 

[xjhawk]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

History from someone who obviously was not there or who have met any of the Express guys who came to Mesaba. Maybe I will try a different approach-History viewed from three inch thick gasses. Okay, that was not good, How about this....History as viewed by a DUMBA$$.

If you want to look at an SLI - look at the Delta/NWA SLI. Just because there are three companies and you see seniority grabbing opportunities does not mean it applies. Pinnacle did not buy Mesaba or Colgan, We do not have one carrier that is Flying large equipment making more money than the rest of us. We do not have one carrier who was bought and then raped and then screwed by fellow pilots (yes Frontier and midwest did get the screw job). To all the pinnacle pilots-you are not the buying company-you were not being paid more than us-you did not even have a contract-you have one of the largest fleets of the least desirable aircraft out there (yes the 200's)-you are not one of those Republic dweebs who were in a different union than the other companies-Colgan or Mesaba did not have 75% of their pilots Furloughed or fired-oh and about the Saabs-timing is everything-just wait and see what Delta does to its crj 200 operations. Get ready for the ride that Mesaba has been riding. Oh and my career expectations has been the same through bankruptcy, growth, and now this-JET CAPTAIN until I leave. From what your negotiators proposed would most likely screw me on that and give my seat that I have had for 4 years to one of your FO's-KISS MY A$$

Oh and just for the record, you got a lot of your story wrong about the History-and your SLI comparison was way off base if you did not get that by reading my commentary

 

[PCL_128]

History from someone who obviously was not there or who have met any of the Express guys who came to Mesaba.

I don't know whether his retelling of the history is true or not, but I do know for a fact that he was there. I can't vouch for the facts, though, because I was just a junior FO at the time, and still not involved in the union.

 

[DoinTime]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. (Tail numbers please, cause I never flew an PX till B-'s arrived later)

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.

Never knew that the old A models were transferred. Thanks for the insight.

 

[CptMurf]

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.

I did not realize this about the A models either, the N number change lead to the confusion. I started pulling up A model N numbers and found a few that were transferred, but about an equal number that don't show a previous ownership. Do you know exactly how many were transferred? Or who owned the aircraft or leases? NWA or 9E? I know all the B+'s came from the factory to XJ.

Doesn't really change any of my previous thoughts on the LOA. The pilots were awarded a job and longevity to come to XJ. At a loss of seniority to some XJs at the time. Had they stayed at 9E they would've been furloughed. Did you offer Freedom a deal like this when you took their airplanes? I would have been happy to take the 2-1 deal in 2002, instead of downgrading. I bet some FOs at the time would have taken the deal instead of being furloughed at the time too.

 

[bri5150]

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.

Don't forget the difference that Mesaba didn't buy Express. That is a BIG difference. Again, if ASA were awarded 50 of your 200's tomorrow, would you expect any type of seniority given to you? Absolutely not. That is what happened at Mesaba back then though.

 

[DoinTime]

Don't forget the difference that Mesaba didn't buy Express. That is a BIG difference.

According to you, Pinnacle Airlines, Inc didn't buy Mesaba either.

Again, if ASA were awarded 50 of your 200's tomorrow, would you expect any type of seniority given to you? Absolutely not. That is what happened at Mesaba back then though.

Absolutely they should engage in ALPA fragmentation policy. Thats what its there for.

 

[DoinTime]

Do you know exactly how many were transferred?

It was either 10 or 11 Saabs. With another 11 in 2002.

Did you offer Freedom a deal like this when you took their airplanes?

We don't operate any formerly freedom planes. Mesaba does though.

 

[bri5150]

According to you, Pinnacle Airlines, Inc didn't buy Mesaba either.




Absolutely they should engage in ALPA fragmentation policy. Thats what its there for.

Correct, Pinnacle Holdings did. What's your point? Either way, the entity bought our contract with mainline as opposed to the previous "transfer" of aircraft which was a change in contract from the mainline carrier. I don't get why the Pinnacle pilots on this board don't understand the difference between '97 and now. It's completely different. Like I asked before, if ASA got 50 of your 200's due to a Delta contract change, would you expect any type of job offer with seniority at ASA? I can answer this question for you, but I would like to see the answer coming from you. If it's anything but no, you have some serious issues.

 

[DoinTime]

Correct, Pinnacle Holdings did. What's your point? Either way, the entity bought our contract with mainline as opposed to the previous "transfer" of aircraft which was a change in contract from the mainline carrier.

I didn't have a point, I was pointing out that in your previous posts you claim that Pinnacle Inc has no hand in the purchase of Mesaba but in your latest post you point that because Pinnacle bought Mesaba that the situation is different than in '97. If Pinnacle Inc didn't buy you then the purchasing situation is identical to '97.

Facts are that wholly owned Mesaba did not have a contract with Delta on any of their airframes. A new service agreement was negotiated between PNCL and DAL with the purchase (reference the SEC filings for full details). This situation was exactly the same as in 1997 when wholly owned Express I did not have a service agreement with NWA.

I don't get why the Pinnacle pilots on this board don't understand the difference between '97 and now. It's completely different.

I don't get why the Mesaba pilots on this board have no clue as to what even happened in '97. If you weren't there and you don't know, just keep your trap shut. Your speculation only makes you more confused.

I do agree that it is completely different situation though and the LOA does not apply in any way other than highlighting what the Mesaba MEC thought was a "fair" integration years ago.

Like I asked before, if ASA got 50 of your 200's due to a Delta contract change, would you expect any type of job offer with seniority at ASA? I can answer this question for you, but I would like to see the answer coming from you. If it's anything but no, you have some serious issues.

Flip back a post or two and you'll find your answer. You actually quoted it above.....can't you read?

 

[CptMurf]

You may not operate Freedom birds now, but you most certainly did.

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-crj-15145.htm

XJ didn't have a service agreement because they were wholly owned. There had to be negotiations with the purchase, otherwise there would have nothing to buy. The terms of they agreement were fully known, before PNCL agreed to buy, and most likely known when DAL approached them to buy us.

ALPAs fragmentation policy doesn't apply for aircraft pulled and awarded to another DCI family. If it did we all failed to integrate Comair folks on our list.

Your posts are no more accurate than anyone else's here. A mix of half truths, opinions, and stories as we remember them, does not make the accurate truth. This situation is not the same as 97.

XJ was awarded aircraft in 97 agreement. XJ brings aircraft they are already operating.
XJ nor their holdings company purchased Express in 97.
XJs contract required PNCL to abide by it in a purchase, and in the contract there was a fragmentation policy that REQUIRED the movement of our pilots with the aircraft. As stated above, Express wasn't purchased and had no contractual claim to the flying transferred to XJ in 97.

Apples and Oranges here.

 

[CptMurf]

It was either 10 or 11 Saabs. With another 11 in 2002.

Approx 10% of the awarded fleet (we had over 100 at one point). Might explain the limits on how many pilots were allowed to take the LOA with seniority brought up earlier. With a total of 20ish% 5 years later.

 

[CptMurf]

I do agree that it is completely different situation though and the LOA does not apply in any way other than highlighting what the Mesaba MEC thought was a "fair" integration years ago.

It was fair, considering they were under NO obligation to give ANY seniority.

I would have been glad to take the same deal in 2002. Bring 11/2 years seniority to a company thats exploding expansion guarantees a street CA position. I would not now take it now with 12 years of seniority, a stagnant airline, and the possibility of losing a lot of 200 flying.

 

[bri5150]

I didn't have a point, I was pointing out that in your previous posts you claim that Pinnacle Inc has no hand in the purchase of Mesaba but in your latest post you point that because Pinnacle bought Mesaba that the situation is different than in '97. If Pinnacle Inc didn't buy you then the purchasing situation is identical to '97.

Facts are that wholly owned Mesaba did not have a contract with Delta on any of their airframes. A new service agreement was negotiated between PNCL and DAL with the purchase (reference the SEC filings for full details). This situation was exactly the same as in 1997 when wholly owned Express I did not have a service agreement with NWA.




I don't get why the Mesaba pilots on this board have no clue as to what even happened in '97. If you weren't there and you don't know, just keep your trap shut. Your speculation only makes you more confused.

I do agree that it is completely different situation though and the LOA does not apply in any way other than highlighting what the Mesaba MEC thought was a "fair" integration years ago.




Flip back a post or two and you'll find your answer. You actually quoted it above.....can't you read?

How can this purchasing situation be identical to the '97 one if there wasn't one then and there certainly is a "purchasing situation" now?

...oh, you agree it's a completely different situation...wait, it's exactly the same...wait...huh?

Sorry I missed your answer before. Please see CptMurph's post about the fragmentation policy. Oh, and if all we needed was the fragmentation policy, why did we need the scope in our contract? And with all this flying getting moved around DCI carriers, why have pilots not moved from company to company?

 

[DoinTime]

Approx 10% of the awarded fleet (we had over 100 at one point). Might explain the limits on how many pilots were allowed to take the LOA with seniority brought up earlier. With a total of 20ish% 5 years later.

At the time Mesaba had about 50 aircraft. The infusion from Express was about a 20% increase to the Mesaba fleet.

 

[DoinTime]

Please see CptMurph's post about the fragmentation policy.

CptMurph can't even get Mesaba history figured out....he sure isn't expert on ALPA fragmentation policy.

Oh, and if all we needed was the fragmentation policy, why did we need the scope in our contract? And with all this flying getting moved around DCI carriers, why have pilots not moved from company to company?

Fragmentation policy does not make management take pilots. Scope does that.

 

[xjhawk]

I cannot believe how this argument is stupid-Hey Doing Time-figure it out, this is not a transfer of assets-Mesaba pilots had language in the contract to fly these airplanes-the new contract Pinnacle Holdings got for buying Mesaba ensures future profits (there is a point to be made that Delta forced the sale on Pinnacle by giving awesome financing). So guess what? Your precious flying over at 9E did nothing to buy Mesaba. This situation is nothing like 97' unless you are telling us that MAIR Holdings bought Express or part of Express back in 97? You and all your idiot buddies over at Pinnacle (the ones that are not arguing this are not idiots) are just using this as a argument to steal seniority. Oh and just because you are so fond of Republic I think you should go there-you are about as nice and bright as those guys who screwed two good airlines.

 

[Flyer1015]

xjhawk,

this is not a transfer of assets

Yes it is, and Pinnacle holdings management has already admit that. The Mesaba CRJ-900s and 200s are an "asset transfer" to Pinnacle Airlines Inc.

 

[WWEfan]

So when is the decision from the arbitrator due?

 

[bri5150]

So when is the decision from the arbitrator due?

Not soon enough...

 

[MACH-TUCK]

Everybody got their undies in a bunch!!! Just think, next week we can all hold hands and sing Kumbaya

Keg Party at CaptMurf's right??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeJ86poZq60

 

[Flyprdu]

Keg Party at CaptMurf's right??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxvdvoQgAy8

 

[Flyer1015]

So when is the decision from the arbitrator due?

On, or before, Friday May 20.

Once it comes out, I am willing to bet we will see a thread that will have a record amount of posts within 24 hours. Someone said 10 pages, I think it'll be far more.