Pinnacle/Mesaba/Colgan SLI!

[bri5150]

I was wondering why none of the three final proposals for the ISL said anything about furloughed pilots. Any ideas?

Because it is a forgone conclusion they will be stapled to the end. Not that I completely agree with it, but I am pretty sure there aren't any mergers that have NOT done that. Is that a double negative? Ugh, you know what I mean.

 

[bri5150]

Yay, how many pages can we get this? We have another week. His decision will be on or before May 20th as per union email.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Yay, how many pages can we get this? We have another week. His decision will be on or before May 20th as per union email.

and then there will be another thread that will reach 10 pages in the first 24 hours.

 

[sinkrate]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

 

[shortbus driver]

Did you guys hear we are buying TWA? I wonder how they will do in our SLI? They did well at American...oh wait...

 

[xjgearbtch]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. (Tail numbers please, cause I never flew an PX till B-'s arrived later) Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. (Source? this is news to me) The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

 

[bri5150]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

Some people don't seem to understand the difference between taking aircraft from another carrier (via purchasing the carrier in our current case), and being awarded flying another carrier did by mainline. Two completely different situations.

 

[xjhawk]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. Mesaba management need the crews to come with them. Mesaba could not staff them. Mesaba limited the number of Express CA's to 30 (out of 250 on the seniority list) and took the rest of the upgrades for themselves. The rest of the pilots that went from Express to Mesaba were FO's that went as newhires. When Express ended its SF3 operation in 2002 more SF3 airframes went from Express to Mesaba. Express made no claims to Mesaba's list at that time - no one wanted to go.

In the 2003 time frame the Mesaba MEC tried to make the case that due to the reduction in flying at Mesaba LOA 21 applied and Mesaba pilots had rights to the Express seniority list. The Mesaba MEC took the claim to the National Executive Council, where it was dismissed. The Express MEC was informed of the claim, it was not 'brought to them'. The PCL MEC had little to do with it.

If any of you want to see how an SLI is done read the recent SLI award in the Repulic/Frontier/MidWest/Lynx merger. Four different carriers, four different unions, equipment from A320's to Q400's, one pilot group with 75% of their pilots furloughed and another with all of their pilots fired, one carrier's lowest paid pilots made more than the other carrier's highest paid pilots. Arguably one of the most difficult SLI's ever done. The Arbitator did an excellent job explaining how he arrived at the award. In the end he varied very little, if any, from the decades of mergers before. Don't expect anything different in the PCL/MSA/CJC SLI.

History from someone who obviously was not there or who have met any of the Express guys who came to Mesaba. Maybe I will try a different approach-History viewed from three inch thick gasses. Okay, that was not good, How about this....History as viewed by a DUMBA$$.

If you want to look at an SLI - look at the Delta/NWA SLI. Just because there are three companies and you see seniority grabbing opportunities does not mean it applies. Pinnacle did not buy Mesaba or Colgan, We do not have one carrier that is Flying large equipment making more money than the rest of us. We do not have one carrier who was bought and then raped and then screwed by fellow pilots (yes Frontier and midwest did get the screw job). To all the pinnacle pilots-you are not the buying company-you were not being paid more than us-you did not even have a contract-you have one of the largest fleets of the least desirable aircraft out there (yes the 200's)-you are not one of those Republic dweebs who were in a different union than the other companies-Colgan or Mesaba did not have 75% of their pilots Furloughed or fired-oh and about the Saabs-timing is everything-just wait and see what Delta does to its crj 200 operations. Get ready for the ride that Mesaba has been riding. Oh and my career expectations has been the same through bankruptcy, growth, and now this-JET CAPTAIN until I leave. From what your negotiators proposed would most likely screw me on that and give my seat that I have had for 4 years to one of your FO's-KISS MY A$$

Oh and just for the record, you got a lot of your story wrong about the History-and your SLI comparison was way off base if you did not get that by reading my commentary

 

[PCL_128]

History from someone who obviously was not there or who have met any of the Express guys who came to Mesaba.

I don't know whether his retelling of the history is true or not, but I do know for a fact that he was there. I can't vouch for the facts, though, because I was just a junior FO at the time, and still not involved in the union.

 

[DoinTime]

Several historical notes,

In 1997 Mesaba did take air frames from Express. (Tail numbers please, cause I never flew an PX till B-'s arrived later)

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.

Never knew that the old A models were transferred. Thanks for the insight.

 

[CptMurf]

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.

I did not realize this about the A models either, the N number change lead to the confusion. I started pulling up A model N numbers and found a few that were transferred, but about an equal number that don't show a previous ownership. Do you know exactly how many were transferred? Or who owned the aircraft or leases? NWA or 9E? I know all the B+'s came from the factory to XJ.

Doesn't really change any of my previous thoughts on the LOA. The pilots were awarded a job and longevity to come to XJ. At a loss of seniority to some XJs at the time. Had they stayed at 9E they would've been furloughed. Did you offer Freedom a deal like this when you took their airplanes? I would have been happy to take the 2-1 deal in 2002, instead of downgrading. I bet some FOs at the time would have taken the deal instead of being furloughed at the time too.

 

[bri5150]

Most (if not all) of them were renamed when they went to Mesaba. For example:

N321PX = N31XJ

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-sf3-31.htm

Mesaba took over direct operation of aircraft that were being operated by Express I. It was a near seamless transfer of assets. Only difference was that the former pilots had to surrender half to two thirds of their longevity to keep operating them.

Don't forget the difference that Mesaba didn't buy Express. That is a BIG difference. Again, if ASA were awarded 50 of your 200's tomorrow, would you expect any type of seniority given to you? Absolutely not. That is what happened at Mesaba back then though.

 

[DoinTime]

Don't forget the difference that Mesaba didn't buy Express. That is a BIG difference.

According to you, Pinnacle Airlines, Inc didn't buy Mesaba either.

Again, if ASA were awarded 50 of your 200's tomorrow, would you expect any type of seniority given to you? Absolutely not. That is what happened at Mesaba back then though.

Absolutely they should engage in ALPA fragmentation policy. Thats what its there for.

 

[DoinTime]

Do you know exactly how many were transferred?

It was either 10 or 11 Saabs. With another 11 in 2002.

Did you offer Freedom a deal like this when you took their airplanes?

We don't operate any formerly freedom planes. Mesaba does though.