Pinnacle Delta Flow-through

[CFI2766]

Also, if this mainline version of a 'flow' were put in place, who would pay for it? There would be massive costs involved with giving an RJ type, or possibly retraining, to anyone who flowed down to the mainline list.

Would management, either DCI or Mainline, pay for the retraining? Highly doubtful.

Would ALPA pay for the training? Again, HIGHLY doubtful. (Imagine the scenario where a DCI guy's ALPA dues were used to train a 'flowed' mainline guy to take his job. There would be hell to pay.)

It's all well and good to discuss possible scenarios of musical chairs, but the reality is that the costs of such a proposal would probably kill it from the outset.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

How 'bout we do it this way:

we wait 'til early next year, after the parking of dc9's/md88/90's and massive furlough from Delta/Northwest and the next 2-3 rounds of swapping 50's for 900's, THEN we agree to a "flow-up" after we've given preferential hiring to the furloughed Delta pilots and they begin to fill our right seats as new hires. That way they can reap the benefits of said "flow" and become superior skilled Mainline pilots with over bloated egos....how'd that be?

It is absolutely amazing that little rj can handle that big ego!:laugh:

oh yeah, lets not have a "flow" that forces anyone that does want to move to mainline to move to mainline.

Or that leaves anyone not qualified like you scraping the bottom of toilets where you belong!

 

[FDJ2]

We are at 223 70/76 seat jets. After these are delivered that were part of the 76 seat scope grievance settlement there are only 32 more than can be delivered. Fact is that they are not even on order yet. That should tell you something.

FWIW, Delta can't take delivery of anymore 76 seat aircraft until the mainline fleet grows above 767 aircraft. The total number of 70/76 seat aircraft at DCI can not exceed 255.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I know that FDJ. But they can order them. They have not done that.

 

[staylow]

Flow through is mainline furlough midigation. American Eagle is the perfect example. There is no such thing as flow up...just flow back. Of the 115 guys who flowed up got to flow back shortly after that. Lee Moak and Delta's MEC is more than aware that they are going to have to furlough a ton of pilots in the near future. How perfect if they could get "flow backs" with Compass, Mesaba, and Comair. He would be the hero that saves the day when he finds places for their 2000 pilot who get flushed. I think most of us agree that "no" is the vote for flow back. In fact the only guys who will vote for it will be the "want something for nothing" guys. Sad.

 

[flyboyike]

Frankly, the idea of a mainline guy 'flowing' to the top of the left seat DCI list, thereby displacing everyone on said DCI list down one number, is categorically a bad idea for the DCI people. To attempt to spin it otherwise, as has been the case with this thread, is a perversion of logic.

It certainly is.

 

[flyboyike]

Lee Moak and Delta's MEC is more than aware that they are going to have to furlough a ton of pilots in the near future. How perfect if they could get "flow backs" with Compass, Mesaba, and Comair. He would be the hero that saves the day when he finds places for their 2000 pilot who get flushed.

IOW, he's doing his job by protecting his people. I don't blame him for a second, but don't tell me what a great deal it is for me.

 

[Grinder10]

Thanks but no thanks on the flow idea. It hasn't worked yet and it won't in the future. I'll take my chances with the standard interview.

 

[NuGuy]

Well, there you have it. Flow through is a bad idea. Said and done.

Therefor, it's time to press on without them. Negotiate with management to recapture the 70 seat flying, and make sure it appears as "business decision" on the part of management. Allow a "slow unwind".

Grab the CPZ 175s. We already represent the CPZ pilots, and need to hire for the 175, so they get onboard via the flow.

Next order of business, terminate all 70+ seat flying done by wholly owned DCI. Pay the cancellation penalties, or let the contracts lapse on the rest.

Park Comair outright, terminate all the employees, and sell the aircraft. Rewind Mesaba to flying only Saabs, and do the same as Comair to the rest.

Remember, they didn't want to play, so no whining. You guys can collect unemployment.

It's a setup. Don't play ball, and this scenario is very real. Management is tired of the games and the piss poor service.

Nu

 

[imacdog]

You are so funny, NuGuy! I'm picking myself off the floor after reading your post. Recapturing 70-seat flying, tee hee! It's management's wet dream to have regional carriers competing for contracts, but don't let that reality get in the way of your bullcrap.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I find it interesting some of the RJ guys are convinced there's going to be 2000 furloughs at DAL. Being pretty closely tied here and in tune with the industry for many many years, I'm just not seeing it. Right now (knock on wood), I don't see any at all. The NWA APAs have not indicated anything of the sort, and further pullbacks of the large flying seems unlikely as well. Again, knock on wood...but the idea of a bunch of furloughs seems very far fetched.

Perhaps these massive furloughs are in some of the senior RJ guys' wet dreams in trying to justify not moving on. Hmmm?

 

[Superpilot92]

I find it interesting some of the RJ guys are convinced there's going to be 2000 furloughs at DAL. Being pretty closely tied here and in tune with the industry for many many years, I'm just not seeing it. Right now (knock on wood), I don't see any at all. The NWA APAs have not indicated anything of the sort, and further pullbacks of the large flying seems unlikely as well. Again, knock on wood...but the idea of a bunch of furloughs seems very far fetched.

Perhaps these massive furloughs are in some of the senior RJ guys' wet dreams in trying to justify not moving on. Hmmm?

agreed 100%

 

[crj567]

I find it interesting some of the RJ guys are convinced there's going to be 2000 furloughs at DAL. Being pretty closely tied here and in tune with the industry for many many years, I'm just not seeing it. Right now (knock on wood), I don't see any at all. The NWA APAs have not indicated anything of the sort, and further pullbacks of the large flying seems unlikely as well. Again, knock on wood...but the idea of a bunch of furloughs seems very far fetched.

Perhaps these massive furloughs are in some of the senior RJ guys' wet dreams in trying to justify not moving on. Hmmm?

O.K.-
So apparently you are in close competition for the tilte "King of All Boneheads." At least you seem to have the smarts for the job... How do you find your way around the house without walking into walls? Really?

DAL already pulled out a bunch of domestic capacity, and they have now announced massive INTL cuts. These two factors, combined with eliminating NWA overlap will mean the airline will not need as many people.

What result other than furloughs could this possibly lead to? I am not happy about the prospect of anyone getting furloughed at any airline, but really-what the hell else do you think will happen? Those INTL routes are a huge albatross-and the future of the airline is at risk because they comprise such a large percentage of your total flying.

-That ain't just yellow KoolAid you are swilling..... Around these parts, that is known as Steenland brandy.

-This situation is pretty obvious... There is only one possible outcome.

-Damn-you are not a smart one-not at all...

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The MASSIVE international cuts you speak of have already been accounted for in staffing- both in the NWA APAs as well as the DAL AEs. This left us a couple hundred pilots on the fat side of things this fall... and we're always a couple hundred guys overstaffed in the fall anyways to keep the staffing for summer. Furloughs at DAL are not economical unless the guys are projected to be on the street around 3 years. This is on par (a tad above this year's) with the wintertime slight overstaffing which keeps the airplane from being critically short in the summer.

Who's the bonehead now?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Peanuckle +1 He is correct. I have been stating this CRJ567.
There is actually a short fall in staffing in the summer of 2010.

 

[flyboyike]

I find it interesting some of the RJ guys are convinced there's going to be 2000 furloughs at DAL.

Not so much convinced as very concerned, especially with what that kind of a cutback would mean to the regionals, flow or no flow. Personally, I'm very pessimistic about the economy in general for the observable future.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Flyboyike,

This is not meant to be a slam, but you need to stop listening to the bitter cmr lifer, I hate DAL, all DAL pilots are topgun egomainiacs, we deserve to fly any size airplane without any interference from those arrogant mainline pilots. Did I cover most of the stereotypes? More than half of us have come from where you currently are. We enjoyed are time there, but knew it was NOT where we wanted to stay. We all flew with the crj567, joey types and listened to their drivel then. Circa, early 90s at eagle the lifers were stating that the "days of a md80 capt. making more than 80K are over", "all domestic will be flown by eagle, mainline will only fly intl., and eagle will be around 10,000 pilots with AA at 3000ish and you should stay here and be real senior", "we will fly the 80/80/80, anyone remember that gem?" I am sure it was like that at most regionals and still is with the lifers. You mentioned earlier that you are around 35 and if your profile is reasonably accurate, you are new the airlines and have 30 years to go. Don't let the bitter lifers shape your view of the industry. The junior mainline pilot, even with the gangrape we took in ch11 is still a better job(I personally won't call it a career again) than all but maybe, the most senior IP types that work the system. He is at the pinnacle of his airline and it will never get better. The junior mainline pilot is at the lowpoint of his career(in most cases) and with time will see more money, wide variety of flying and in a few years plenty of upward movement due to the old farts finally retiring. This would be going on right now, despite the recession if not for the age change. All I am saying is ask yourself why most are still there? And be honest. Yes there are a few that have other income, spouses with good jobs or just are content with where they are. Those are not the guys who are always spewing their anti-mainline bile to anyone who will listen. The other guys, there is a reason they did not get hired and it is alway someone elses fault, ie: military buddy system, capts kids, minorities etc. You have a long career ahead of you, don't hold yourself short. Sorry for the long rant.

Not so much convinced as very concerned, especially with what that kind of a cutback would mean to the regionals, flow or no flow. Personally, I'm very pessimistic about the economy in general for the observable future.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

Furloughs are a last resort b/c of cost. Lots of grey beards at NWA that will retire or accept an early out which is much cheaper b/c it's coming off the top instead of the bottom. The whole point maybe moot if DAL makes money or has small losses.

 

[79%N1]

.

It's a setup. Don't play ball, and this scenario is very real. Management is tired of the games and the piss poor service.

Nu

The piss poor service from the Regionals is BECAUSE of Delta Management and Delta employees - PLAIN AND SIMPLE! As a DCI pilot, I show up to work on time to fly a well maintained airplane and try to do it on the schedule Delta management gives our company. Now, lets see where the so called "piss poor" performance breaks down. Lazy and stupid Delta gate agents cannot board on time or send people to the right airplane at the right time. Delta does not provide enough gate space so that when I arrive I have a place to park so the Delta passengers on my plane can get off and get to there connection. When I do get parked, the Delta rampers cannot unload the bags and send them to the right place so the passenger gets that bag at their destination. (Who takes that performance hit? My Regional airline) When my plane finally gets loaded (because Delta staffs the ramp so low that there is nowhere near enough people to load bags and push all the a/c they are working - not the fault of the workers, but the fault of management) I have to wait until long after my scheduled departure time before I get pushed back by a Delta ramper. In the mean time, the a/c waiting for my spot is getting later and later for his arrival time. Now that I am late, I get to my outstation late, which delays that flight back to the hub....making those passengers late for their connecting flight, usually without their bags!

Do you get the picture yet? You arrogantly slam DCI carriers for "piss poor" performance, yet all we do is safely carry the passengers Delta books on our flights (usually overbooks, causing our denied boarding stats to go up) at the time Delta tells us to (unless Delta agents and rampers cannot get the flight out on schedule) in the equipment Delta tells us to fly! Where is anything to do solely with us "piss poor"???? This attitude from you arrogant mainline pr!cks really ticks me off! You turn your noses up at us like we have ANY way to control our operation. When a passenger gets on my flight, he/she is met with a pleasant flight crew, that provides them the standard Delta service and transports them safely to their destination.

What else would you have us do to ensure your Delta passengers better service? Maybe you need to cut us a break and see where the true problems lie! Look at your own company!

 

[flyboyike]

Flyboyike,

This is not meant to be a slam, but you need to stop listening to the bitter cmr lifer, I hate DAL, all DAL pilots are topgun egomainiacs, we deserve to fly any size airplane without any interference from those arrogant mainline pilots. Did I cover most of the stereotypes? More than half of us have come from where you currently are. We enjoyed are time there, but knew it was NOT where we wanted to stay. We all flew with the crj567, joey types and listened to their drivel then. Circa, early 90s at eagle the lifers were stating that the "days of a md80 capt. making more than 80K are over", "all domestic will be flown by eagle, mainline will only fly intl., and eagle will be around 10,000 pilots with AA at 3000ish and you should stay here and be real senior", "we will fly the 80/80/80, anyone remember that gem?" I am sure it was like that at most regionals and still is with the lifers. You mentioned earlier that you are around 35 and if your profile is reasonably accurate, you are new the airlines and have 30 years to go. Don't let the bitter lifers shape your view of the industry. The junior mainline pilot, even with the gangrape we took in ch11 is still a better job(I personally won't call it a career again) than all but maybe, the most senior IP types that work the system. He is at the pinnacle of his airline and it will never get better. The junior mainline pilot is at the lowpoint of his career(in most cases) and with time will see more money, wide variety of flying and in a few years plenty of upward movement due to the old farts finally retiring. This would be going on right now, despite the recession if not for the age change. All I am saying is ask yourself why most are still there? And be honest. Yes there are a few that have other income, spouses with good jobs or just are content with where they are. Those are not the guys who are always spewing their anti-mainline bile to anyone who will listen. The other guys, there is a reason they did not get hired and it is alway someone elses fault, ie: military buddy system, capts kids, minorities etc. You have a long career ahead of you, don't hold yourself short. Sorry for the long rant.

I don't disagree with any of what you say, but can you blame me for looking at the current reality, which is pretty grim, IMHO? I don't want to stay here more than I have to, but neither am I real keen on exposing myself to a flushdown in return for basically just a hope for a better future. And you're right, we wouldn't be in this had it not been for age change, but age change is the reality, so here we are.

So, my options at this point as I see them are as follows (to the extent that anyone, like my MEC, might ask my opinion on this, which they probably will not):

1. Agree to a flushdown in return for the promise of a mainline seniority #, get furloughed, go non-current (not much work out there) and try and convince myself that when better times come mainline will be all over a non-current furloughee (I'm being slightly dramatic, but you get my point).

2. Try my dangest to hold on to what I have (such as it is). CMR may not be around for long, but that doesn't mean I will ceed my position any earlier than I have to (i. e. if and when CMR goes away).

I personally have no animosity whatsoever towards the mainline pilot group, but I'm yet to see a flow work out for anyone, mainline or regional, so I won't apologize for beeing leery of it.

Hope this helps.