Pinnacle Delta Flow-through

[79%N1]

There are approx. 6,000 DCI pilots. How long would it take for all of us to get our seat at Delta?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

15 years tops.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

right now it takes about 10 years at DCI to to be competitive here.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Flow Up​

1. NWA shall offer employment to MSA Flow Up pilots in priority to any other pilot candidate for hire, with the exception of a pilot who is eligible for Flow Up from Compass Airlines. Offers to MSA pilots to Flow Up will be made in seniority order, provided that , in order to be eligible to Flow-Up a pilot must:

1. 1. Be a Captain, and
   2. Have at least thirty (30) months on payroll at MSA, and
   3. Meet all objective hiring criteria and requirements as established by Northwest (e.g., total flight time, multi-engine time, PIC, First Class Medical Certificate, passport, FCC Radio permit, ATP certificate) provided such objective criteria shall not be greater or more extensive than the objective criteria for other new hires.
   4. A pilot who does not meet these criteria will retain the right to Flow Up at a later date once he is able to meet the criteria referenced above.
      

These are the criteria out of our contract. It's more than just a "college degree" required. Wanted to clear that up.

 

[flyboyike]

How old are you? 25 maybe.

You're off by quite a bit, almost a decade.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

WOW. Sorry.

That said, I can see your heartburn getting here at 40.
That is why I want one list. Politically I can not see it happening right now though. This is best case.

 

[flyboyike]

Bi-lateral means all seats at DCI are mainline seats, and all seats at mainline are DCI. (Two way flow) that concept is not that hard.

But that's not what's being proposed, is it? In fact, at the moment, I don't believe anything at all is being proposed, unless the regionals give up their seats to get "a seat at the table" as Puffdriver put it. Not to get a deal, mind you, just to get the chance to talk about a deal.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Flow Up​

1. NWA shall offer employment to MSA Flow Up pilots in priority to any other pilot candidate for hire, with the exception of a pilot who is eligible for Flow Up from Compass Airlines. Offers to MSA pilots to Flow Up will be made in seniority order, provided that , in order to be eligible to Flow-Up a pilot must:

1. 1. Be a Captain, and
   2. Have at least thirty (30) months on payroll at MSA, and
   3. Meet all objective hiring criteria and requirements as established by Northwest (e.g., total flight time, multi-engine time, PIC, First Class Medical Certificate, passport, FCC Radio permit, ATP certificate) provided such objective criteria shall not be greater or more extensive than the objective criteria for other new hires.
   4. A pilot who does not meet these criteria will retain the right to Flow Up at a later date once he is able to meet the criteria referenced above.
      

These are the criteria out of our contract. It's more than just a "college degree" required. Wanted to clear that up.

What other criteria, meeting our min flt time requirements? That is a given with flowing off the top.

 

[flyboyike]

WOW. Sorry.

That said, I can see your heartburn getting here at 40.
That is why I want one list. Politically I can not see it happening right now though. This is best case.

Don't be sorry, I'm not. Neither do I want a younger guy to fall for the same pipe dream I'm not falling for.

 

[JoeMerchant]

WOW. Sorry.

That said, I can see your heartburn getting here at 40.
That is why I want one list. Politically I can not see it happening right now though. This is best case.

So you're acknowledging the fact that the benefit starts to taper off for those that are older....There are quite a few at the DCI carriers that fall into this category....

 

[JoeMerchant]

What other criteria, meeting our min flt time requirements? That is a given with flowing off the top.

So the Mesaba and Compass flows don't require a 4 year degree....How are you going to get around that one now? Are the DCI carriers going to have to have it, while Mesaba and Compass don't? That could be another legal trap....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Joe what I am saying is that if you are in your mid 30's and in the bottom 25% of the DCI list, yeah it may suck.
That is not the norm. You know that. For you Joe, you would flow in a year or two tops.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

So the Mesaba and Compass flows don't require a 4 year degree....How are you going to get around that one now? Are the DCI carriers going to have to have it, while Mesaba and Compass don't? That could be another legal trap....

Read it again Joe. It does, he stated that there were other requirements. I am sure that they are the same basic DAL requirements.

 

[hockeypilot44]

I discuss it, because from first hand discussions it is DALPA's best thinking. I was not for a bilateral flow when I was there either. I would have lost a lot of seniority in the process. I think getting here on your own merits has its advantages.

But look ahead. Say DAL furloughs 2000 pilots in the next few years. That is short term. Long term is that in the next nine they need to hire a min of 2500 to stay at zero sum. Look beyond that and we will do a lot more hiring than furloughing. Fact is long term a flow works for the DCI carriers.

I disagree about Delta hiring 2000 pilots in the next few years. The DC-9's, 747-400's, 747-200's, and some 767's are going to go away. We will keep selling out scope letting the regionals get more and more 76 seaters. They might even get larger aircraft than that. Delta might not furlough, but we could easily not hire for years. IMHO, it will be a shrinking airline for a long time.

On a brighter note, I don't know who you are, but I enjoy reading your posts. They are very insightful.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Yes, and no. The 742 are probably gone, the 30 and 40 block 9's are gone, and maybe 32 5500 series 757's. About 40 to 50 jets. With what is in the desert in VCV it is about a zero sum loss.

Looking the fleet plan, we are getting some good metal in the next five years. Each of these jets will take care of two narrow body jets.

As for RJ's I say that the era of giving up scope is gone. Even DAL knows it has too many. The number is going to go down. It is just a question of when and whom.
Ask Bob, he will tell you. We need to cut about 250 RJ's from the portfolio. That is short term. Long term it is a lot more.

BTW thanks for the kind words.

 

[imacdog]

Who's dumb enough to believe hiring projections for the next 15 years?

 

[PCL_128]

Better yet, who's dumb enough to believe that scope erosion is actually done? I've thought that to be the case for years, but I'm proven wrong every single time. Anybody else still remember when Delta was limited to outsourcing just 57 70-seaters? Seems like just yesterday.

 

[flyboyike]

Who's dumb enough to believe hiring projections for the next 15 years?

Not me.

 

[flyboyike]

Better yet, who's dumb enough to believe that scope erosion is actually done? I've thought that to be the case for years, but I'm proven wrong every single time.

You and me both.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

"Seems like just yesterday."

That's because it was. And the ALPA guys got upset when I told them I didn't believe them when they said "scope erosion is done!" My only words to them were to prove it with their actions, because their words on that subject have zero foundation.