Pinnacle Delta Flow-through

[N2264J]

No, the dirty little secret of the OH strike was that OH was exactly 24 hours from being shut down, permanently.

Not that you would have a clue what management was thinking (they kept telling us they were going to shut us down) but if true, that would make Comair the ballsiest pilot group brandishing steely-eyed brinksmanship to the very edge of the abyss in the history of this pathetic union.

Clearly, Flying The Line III material.

 

[paddlehigh]

I though Pinnacle was independently owned, so why would they have a flow through with Delta. Thats like saying Mesa will get a flow through with Delta.

 

[Grinder10]

Two of the 3 person panel that interviewed me were active DAL Captains, the person in charge and that gave me the letter of hire...retired DAL Captain. His assistant that decided who's of the 10,000 apps to send to Arnie to be reviewed for an invite to interview: Retired DAL Captain.

Your version sounds the same as my brother's interview/hiring experience there. I'm glad to see that pilots are in control of hiring. That is the way it should be.

However, Hockeypilot's post was not referring to times like these where companies can afford to be selective. When there are thousands of pilots on the street of course you can pick and choose who you want to interview. We were talking about the hiring booms where it may be difficult to find enough people who meet the minimums. (hypothetically) If for some reason Delta management decided to drop the mins to 500tt and comm/instrument because they needed to hire a ton of pilots very quickly do you really think that there is anything the seniority list pilots could do about it? They may be in control of the interview process, but they are not in control of hiring minimums.

If any company has trouble filling their classes do you think they will a) raise wages to attract more qualified applicants or b) lower hiring minimums. The current seniority list will not have a choice in the matter. That was my point.

 

[N2264J]

Re: Pinnacle Delta Flow-though

Two of the 3 person panel that interviewed me were active DAL Captains, the person in charge and that gave me the letter of hire...retired DAL Captain. His assistant that decided who's of the 10,000 apps to send to Arnie to be reviewed for an invite to interview: Retired DAL Captain.

[read]: Management or management wannabe ie pilots doing management's bidding.

Poindexter has already made the case:

Actually, Delta pilots don't hire. Delta does. We at Delta support the fact that management can be choosy with respect to who gets hired and who doesn't.

You have a cozy "partners with management" relationship to the extent that management finds you useful but management cares not a whit about internal union disputes. All the talk about Delta pilots blackballing Comair pilots in the hiring process is a steaming pile.

 

[PCL_128]

I don't see the hate, but the reality. Are you suggesting that he shut-up and sit at the back of the bus?

No, I'm suggesting that he work to find a solution rather than hurling insults at the organization that isn't causing the problem.

 

[crashpad]

Just saw a copy of the memo. Congrats guys on the flow through, you all deserve it! No more worrying about your families future. Sit back and enjoy the free ride!

 

[seniorgolfer]

WE did talk. WE were summarily dismissed due to a couple of groups thinking that they had more leverage than they did. Now they have furloughs.

Your going to get what you get. If you don't want it, your going to get worse.

Accept the inevitable or spend the rest of your life
:bawling: :bawling: :bawling:

Don't really care either way.

Hmm...

Delta had just under 11K active pilots a few years ago. They had far less before the NWA merger.

I can see that some RJ flying may be brought back to mainline, but mainline pilots will have to "buy it back" (fly for the rates the regionals currently do). There is no incentive for management to pay more for that gauge of flying than they do now.

The way travel demand (especially international) is waning, I'd be concerned about further mainline cutbacks if I was a mainline pilot.

 

[JumpersAway]

I'm still curious though, as to what a bilateral flow through offers the regional pilots that ante' up. So far, we've established that there is still going to be the need to interview, and that there will be no such barriers for those that flow down from mainline. Regardless of who does what flying, there is no benefit for those at the regional level. Seriously, who is dilusional enough to chase after something like this? As I see it, given the proposed lay out, it's best if DAL stayes on their side of the fense, and ASA'ers stay on theirs. Even if DAL "blacklists" ASA pilots as a result, DAL isn't going to be the only hiring game in town when the dust settles and the economy rebounds. Although I'd love to fly for DAL, it seems that I may be abandoning this thought for other employers..........

 

[flyboyike]

I'm still curious though, as to what a bilateral flow through offers the regional pilots that ante' up. So far, we've established that there is still going to be the need to interview.....

Seems to me supposedly the "ante-uppers" will interview ahead of anyone else (at least in theory). I agree with you that a carrot like that is neither big enough, nor particularly tasty. They'll still hire whomever they want.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

As with XJ the only requirement to flow up is a four year degree. I do not see how you can even call it a flow if we interview you. That is preferential hiring which is already in place.

 

[JumpersAway]

As with XJ the only requirement to flow up is a four year degree. I do not see how you can even call it a flow if we interview you. That is preferential hiring which is already in place.

That sounds more enticing- I'll fully admitt. However, questions still arise with regard to the host of DCI carriers, the order of the flow through, and the numbers involved. Would this be a seniority based system? Also, I'd imagine that quite a few of the management types at the regionals (ASA, especially) would not be open to the idea, given that they would likely incurr the cost of training the Delta pilots that have back flowed onto property. I'm sure you would agree that retraining 1800 + pilots is going to be an expensive proposition.

To be honest, before I'd even remotely think about even thinking about the prospect of such a flow through, I'd have to see Lee Moak and hear him address, along with our elected MEC, the stake we would be buying in this master plan.

 

[USCtrojan]

That sounds more enticing- I'll fully admitt. However, questions still arise with regard to the host of DCI carriers, the order of the flow through, and the numbers involved. Would this be a seniority based system? Also, I'd imagine that quite a few of the management types at the regionals (ASA, especially) would not be open to the idea, given that they would likely incurr the cost of training the Delta pilots that have back flowed onto property. I'm sure you would agree that retraining 1800 + pilots is going to be an expensive proposition.

To be honest, before I'd even remotely think about even thinking about the prospect of such a flow through, I'd have to see Lee Moak and hear him address, along with our elected MEC, the stake we would be buying in this master plan.

Not to add negativity to any of this, but I've never seen any type flow thru work. I'm pretty much a huge NO unless there's overwhelming evidence that such a program would/could work. ALPA on this issue has ALWAYS favored the big guns. I'd be extremely skeptical on any of this. I like ACL65's candor and his willingness to discuss. However, I'm sure he understands those of us at EV being so skeptical of any type of flowthru type discussion. If D does furlough (hopefully not), I will always be in favor of Mainline guys coming to EV at the bottom with no resignation of number. It's just the right thing to do. Anything that supports super seniority I'll be vehemently against.

Trojan

 

[flyboyike]

To be honest, before I'd even remotely think about even thinking about the prospect of such a flow through, I'd have to see Lee Moak and hear him address, along with our elected MEC, the stake we would be buying in this master plan.

What good would that do? How do I know Capt Moak isn't getting recalled tomorrow?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I assume that you would go by your last four of your ssn when coming over, as will the XJ and CPS pilots. They are not DAL employees. They get the first XXXX number of slots per class, but as I read it, they are not in seniority order. I am sure legal will look at this, but they are not given preferintial placement with in each class, just so many slots per month per class. It does not say where they will be placed.

 

[flyboyike]

I like ACL65's candor and his willingness to discuss.

I don't think it's candor, he just wants something to fall back on, for which I don't blame him for a second.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Not to add negativity to any of this, but I've never seen any type flow thru work. I'm pretty much a huge NO unless there's overwhelming evidence that such a program would/could work. ALPA on this issue has ALWAYS favored the big guns. I'd be extremely skeptical on any of this. I like ACL65's candor and his willingness to discuss. However, I'm sure he understands those of us at EV being so skeptical of any type of flowthru type discussion. If D does furlough (hopefully not), I will always be in favor of Mainline guys coming to EV at the bottom with no resignation of number. It's just the right thing to do. Anything that supports super seniority I'll be vehemently against.

Trojan

I discuss it, because from first hand discussions it is DALPA's best thinking. I was not for a bilateral flow when I was there either. I would have lost a lot of seniority in the process. I think getting here on your own merits has its advantages.

But look ahead. Say DAL furloughs 2000 pilots in the next few years. That is short term. Long term is that in the next nine they need to hire a min of 2500 to stay at zero sum. Look beyond that and we will do a lot more hiring than furloughing. Fact is long term a flow works for the DCI carriers.

 

[flyboyike]

But look ahead. Say DAL furloughs 2000 pilots in the next few years. That is short term. Long term is that in the next nine they need to hire a min of 2500 to stay at zero sum. Look beyond that and we will do a lot more hiring than furloughing. Fact is long term a flow works for the DCI carriers.

Translation: it's OK to agree to be furloughed for a few years (which is short term), because we'll all get snapped up by Mother D, once we get to the "beyond" stage.

Please tell me you're not serious and/or don't expect the regional pilot group to be THAT gullible.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I am not giving you my thinking.

I want everyone on the same list. I do not care how hard to how many political chips it takes, that is what needs to be done to further this profession.

Realistically at present the best we can hope for is a bilateral flow.
What you are telling me is you want all of the upside and none of the downside that goes with it. People like Puff and I ask where you think that is a fair deal?
My point was that EV or XJ, or OH et al would eat about 400 furloughs tops. (I say 2000 to be doomsday, fact is that based on the 2010 numbers will be hiring next year) For that you have a gurnateed seat at DAL. The downside for you is you might get bumped back for a few years, the upside is that you get to come to DAL knowing that there are a s$%tload of retirements coming. It is a gamble and knowing the long term ops plans I can tell you it is a good one to take.
Sit on your six and 10 years from now when we are hiring 1000 a year, do the math, look where you might have been v/s where you are.
Big picture. It is the first step in making all of this flying mainline once again.

 

[flyboyike]

What you are telling me is you want all of the upside and none of the downside that goes with it. People like Puff and I ask where you think that is a fair deal?

That's not quite what I'm telling you. What I'm telling you is that I'd like the downside and upside to be comparable, which they're not. Nobody (so far, anyway) is offering a guaranteed seat at Delta (I still have to interview and prove that not only am I worthy enough to fly DL customers, but I am worthy of the double-breasted suit as well) and even if they were, you can't even forecast what's going to happen next week and here you are wanting me to "eat" 400 furloughs because surely in 10 years we'll all be on the gravy train. Just how am I to eat in the interim? Or doesn't that matter, because the "big picture" looks so rosy?

I'm not buying it and I doubt you would if you were me.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Like I said. Flow means seat, and seniority number. Like I also said XJ just needs to have a four year degree to flow. That is quite simple. No interview. I do not see where you think you will have to interview. That is not a flow.
Bi-lateral means all seats at DCI are mainline seats, and all seats at mainline are DCI. (Two way flow) that concept is not that hard. That is a good deal.
How old are you? 25 maybe. Well I can bet you that if you flow per a bilateral flow, I bet you, you will retire at DAL in the top 300. Probably better but I do not want to be over zealous.

Also FWIW, I know a certain friend of mine on here like to pull a few chains now and then, that might be where you are getting the need to interview from.