Pilots wearing backpacks??? lets get campy?

[SkyBoy1981]

It depends on where you work. When I was a corporate pilot, there were times that I carried a backpack if it was a trip with just one short overnight. I knew my passengers though...and I knew the folks that I worked with. They were all confident in my abilities, and couldn't care less about a backpack. As far as anyone else, I really didn't care whether they liked it or not since they weren't contributing to my paycheck. At the airlines, its different...I would never go to work with a backpack. I don't know the people that I'm flying, and they do not know me. I already look like a high school kid (can't really help it), but if I make it worse by acting like one or by carrying around a backpack that isn't going to give them much confidence in myself or my airline. Thats just my opinion though.

 

[FN FAL]

And yes, FN FAL is gay.

Hah hah hah...just because I wear festoons on my roll along, it's no reason to call me names!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ok, my response:

You are comparing apples to oranges. These are two totally different things, looked on two completely different ways by society. Eyebrow rings and lip rings are a far sight more 'progressive' than backpacks. That's like sentencing someone to the death penalty for jaywalking. You have to use some common sense. Read my previous post about wife-beaters and cutoffs. I realize it's not a gallup poll, but in relation to this topic, I asked my neighbor what she thought of a pilot wearing a backpack, (this is the same one I mentioned in a previous post), and here exact words were, "What?? I don't care about that." I realize it's not a poll or anything, but it's an example of customers believe.

Now I offer this:

1. Customers don't care. They go whereever the cheapest ticket is. They have proven this time and time again with travelocity, expedia, priceline, etc. No brand loyalty. They don't care who's flying them as long as they can pay $39 bucks a leg.

2. Employer. If they cared, why did my FOM say nothing about it? Why does my current FOM say nothing about it? Why do a lot of the FOM's out there say nothing?

3. Fellow pilots. Once again, as in my previous post, this message board is the first time I've EVER seen or heard anything negative about wearing a backpack. No DO, CP, check airman, captain, or first officer has EVER said ANYTHING to me about it. EVER. My argument doesn't need to change here.

Is it common sense? The eyebrow ring is certianly more attention getting. That is why I used it, to emphasize the point. Consider how you feel about a fellow pilot wearing an eyebrow ring, is the how the anti backpackers feel about you wearing a backpack. Especially when worn over both shoulders. Is that how you wear it CaptnVegetto? With both shoulder straps over your shoulderboards? Or just casually over one shoulder? Kinda laid back, laisser faire?

Therefore, if you want it to be ok to wear a backpack then it is also ok to wear a eyebrow stud. Where does one draw the line? Who gets to decide what is ok and what is not. Obviously you want to decide that backpacks are ok. Your FOM doesn't say you CAN use backpacks. It doesn't say you CAN"T wear eyebrow studs.

1. We all want the most for the cheapest price. Pax want the cheapest price but they's rather have a jet than a prop airplane. I think they'd rather have a conservative professional image than not. And does your neighbors (lack of) concern determine whether you care? IOW, as a professional pilot, since my neighbor doesn't care and my passengers don't care...guess what... I don't care!

2. Your FOM doesn't say much about tongue studs and eyebrow rings. Do you need it to? Are you getting the point? Do you wear a tie cause your FOM says so, or because it is a uniform standard?

3. And at my airline they don't say much either. That doesn't mean it is ok. I saw a pilot with a goatee the other day. WTFO? Beards and goatee on pilots work in Europe. But we are not in Europe. No one has said much to you at work, (do you need them too?) but yet you are getting a loud and clear message right here right now.


This backpack issue is a fine line and I'd rather debate this, to get to promote individual understanding of the uniform, than whether or not it is professional as pilots to wear tongue studs.

Just keep in mind that when one wears a pilot uniform there is a level of responsibility in that one pilot can speak for thousands. All we have is our image. Your "don't judge a book by its cover" arguement doesn't work because all our passengers and customers have is our image and behavior. They don't watch us fly and don't have access to our flying records. Sarcasm on: One passenger to the other. "Did you see our pilot? He looks like a beach bum in shorts and sandals when he sat down in the cockpit." Other passengers replies "yes, but looking at his 10 year training history he has never failed a checkride!" Sarcasm off.

When I functioned as a Captain, I realized my effectiveness with my crew and passengers was greatly impacted by my appearance and behavior. And when I had a FO that had attention getting variations in his appearance and behavior, I didn't say anything but I also didn't give him as much credit in his abilities as a pilot. And as a Captain, I don't have to. I am not going to wait until a WX event to see if this guy can cut it.... IOW, if he can't wear the uniform right and stop swearing for five minutes how do I know he holds himself to a high standard when it comes to flying? I don't, I have to wait two or three legs to see howthis guy flies and that is not fair to me or him. When I was an FO, I knew alot about the Captain I was with by his image and behavior.....and how effective I was going to be for him/her.

Looks like we are going round and 'round and coming to a agree-to-disagree.

Different schools of thought.......old school-new school?

Besides someone will tell us to get a room soon. I'll bet FN FAL will be there

 

[PCL_128]

First of all, Rez is far from being a "crusty old guy." Believe it or not, some of us that care about a professional image are not all that close to retirement age. You don't have to an old geezer to care about a professional image.

Second, I think it all comes down to one simple question: "If I wear this, will a significant portion of the flying public think it looks unusual or unprofessional for an airline pilot?" If the answer is yes, then don't frickin' wear it! You and I as pilots know that wearing a backpack is no indication of how well someone can fly, but a large portion of the public won't see it that way. Can you honestly say that a large portion of the flying public wouldn't find it odd or unprofessional for an airline pilot to be wearing a backpack? Be honest now.

 

[AeroDork]

I'm a corporate pilot and the President of the company carries a backpack instead of a briefcase. He's the most unorganized, airheaded, inconsiderate, forgetful person I know. It doesn't instill much conficence when he shows up with a half open backpack with junk falling out. I'd like to know what other business executives think when he shows up to meet with them and he's pulling junk out of his goofy backpack.

 

[filejw]

I'm headed to BOM in a few days and will take orders for leather backpacks.They are nice size not gaudy and big enough for a two day trip.Black only with black zipper and clasps.$80.Will look nice on a female or maybe a male pilot with an earing. Should fit any airlines FOM requirements.All contingent on the place hasn't floated away.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Is it common sense? The eyebrow ring is certianly more attention getting. That is why I used it, to emphasize the point. Consider how you feel about a fellow pilot wearing an eyebrow ring, is the how the anti backpackers feel about you wearing a backpack. Especially when worn over both shoulders. Is that how you wear it CaptnVegetto? With both shoulder straps over your shoulderboards? Or just casually over one shoulder? Kinda laid back, laisser faire?

Depends on where I am. Besides, I now don't wear shoulder boards.

Therefore, if you want it to be ok to wear a backpack then it is also ok to wear a eyebrow stud. Where does one draw the line? Who gets to decide what is ok and what is not. Obviously you want to decide that backpacks are ok. Your FOM doesn't say you CAN use backpacks. It doesn't say you CAN"T wear eyebrow studs.

Actually, it did. There was a paragraph in it on visible piercings. Nothing on backpacks. Males were not supposed to have any visible piercings of any kind. Not even ears. Of course, that did not stop one captain that I knew of. He had an earring, and a mullet for that matter. Now THAT guy was a poster boy for unprofessionalism. He was in the top 5% of the seniority list too, although he was NOT very highly thought of.

1. We all want the most for the cheapest price. Pax want the cheapest price but they's rather have a jet than a prop airplane. I think they'd rather have a conservative professional image than not. And does your neighbors (lack of) concern determine whether you care? IOW, as a professional pilot, since my neighbor doesn't care and my passengers don't care...guess what... I don't care!

Not about backpacks, no. More to come

2. Your FOM doesn't say much about tongue studs and eyebrow rings. Do you need it to? Are you getting the point? Do you wear a tie cause your FOM says so, or because it is a uniform standard?

See my above post about the jewelry. I wear a tie b/c my FOM says so. I've already said if I could wear a golf shirt and khakis, I would.

3. And at my airline they don't say much either. That doesn't mean it is ok. I saw a pilot with a goatee the other day. WTFO? Beards and goatee on pilots work in Europe. But we are not in Europe. No one has said much to you at work, (do you need them too?) but yet you are getting a loud and clear message right here right now.

I will never have a beard and goatee because I believe it is a safety concern. Supposedly you are not able to get a perfect seal on your O2 mask if you have one. I'll never grow one anyway because I can't stand the itching. A 'loud and clear message'? Sure from you and about 4 or 5 other people on here, but what about all the others arguing against you? It's pretty even. Not enough to sway me. I still haven't seen a reason to convince me in all our debating.

This backpack issue is a fine line and I'd rather debate this, to get to promote individual understanding of the uniform, than whether or not it is professional as pilots to wear tongue studs.

Met several flight attendants with tounge studs. I believe it was against their FOM, though I'm not sure. I asked, they said no, as long as it wasn't visible.

Just keep in mind that when one wears a pilot uniform there is a level of responsibility in that one pilot can speak for thousands. All we have is our image. Your "don't judge a book by its cover" arguement doesn't work because all our passengers and customers have is our image and behavior. They don't watch us fly and don't have access to our flying records. Sarcasm on: One passenger to the other. "Did you see our pilot? He looks like a beach bum in shorts and sandals when he sat down in the cockpit." Other passengers replies "yes, but looking at his 10 year training history he has never failed a checkride!" Sarcasm off.

When I functioned as a Captain, I realized my effectiveness with my crew and passengers was greatly impacted by my appearance and behavior. And when I had a FO that had attention getting variations in his appearance and behavior, I didn't say anything but I also didn't give him as much credit in his abilities as a pilot. And as a Captain, I don't have to. I am not going to wait until a V1 cut to see if this guy can cut it.... IOW, if he can't wear the uniform right and stop swearing for five minutes how do I know he holds himself to a high standard when it comes to flying? I don't, I have to wait two ro three legs and that is not fair to me or him. When I was an FO, I knew alot about the Captain I was with by his image and behavior.....and how effective I was going to be for him/her.

Looks like we are going round and 'round and coming to a agree-to-disagree.

Different schools of thought.......old school-new school?

Guess you're right. I see what you are referring to as far as weirdo piercings, but I just see that and a backpack as two completely different things. A backpack, to me, is just not a big deal. A nose ring is. It's like what I was saying earlier. Is a hydrogen bomb the same as a stick of dynamite? Well, they're both bombs, but one is waaaay different than the other.

Besides someone will tell us to get a room soon. I'll bet FN FAL will be there

Cheers

 

[ATRCAPT]

Oh, I got your Animal House reference. It was a good one too. I also got you sarcasm. Evidently you didn't get mine....Chief. BTW, don't mess with me, you know I'm training to be a cage fighter.

Wow . . . .you're kind of an ignoramus, aren't ya? Part of my post was sarcasm, apparently you didn't get it. Apparently, you never saw "Animal House", or didn't see it enough times to get the reference.

Regardless, Chief, if you aren't willing to repsect the uniform, then don't wear it. Go fly freight . . . it's a big world out there . . . . something for everyone. HAve a nice life . . . and without that pledge pin.

 

[acaTerry]

I just ask these questions:

1. Why did we not have this kind of problem 10 yrs ago? Could it be something to do with the fact that low-time pilots, especially very young ones, were not flying for the airlines?

2. Why will you babies exhaust yourselves arguing to justify your noncompliance with things that are time tested, proven practices?

3. How hard can it be to comply? You guys are like a kid who has to wear shoes the first time, squirming and whining about everything being so hard to do...cut your hair, wear your uniform, etc.

I am not the old, washed up guy some dingaling accused me of early. I am only 37, and no, my logbook did not stop at 5000 hrs. I am a former regional pilot who now flies for a frac b/c I got tired of the dead-end regional airline job. Dead end b/c of idiots who insist on aiming for the bottom, the minimum, and settling for being pidgeon droppings.
Until you guys grow up, follow the rules, and hold up a professional image, you will always be $22/hr pilots.
As for your John Lennon "you don't know me" replies, and the apple to oranges, and other cliche rebuttals, save it. I don't want to hear it. You guys are making your beds, prepare to sleep in them.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

I just ask these questions:

1. Why did we not have this kind of problem 10 yrs ago? Could it be something to do with the fact that low-time pilots, especially very young ones, were not flying for the airlines?

2. Why will you babies exhaust yourselves arguing to justify your noncompliance with things that are time tested, proven practices?

3. How hard can it be to comply? You guys are like a kid who has to wear shoes the first time, squirming and whining about everything being so hard to do...cut your hair, wear your uniform, etc.

I am not the old, washed up guy some dingaling accused me of early. I am only 37, and no, my logbook did not stop at 5000 hrs. I am a former regional pilot who now flies for a frac b/c I got tired of the dead-end regional airline job. Dead end b/c of idiots who insist on aiming for the bottom, the minimum, and settling for being pidgeon droppings.
Until you guys grow up, follow the rules, and hold up a professional image, you will always be $22/hr pilots.
As for your John Lennon "you don't know me" replies, and the apple to oranges, and other cliche rebuttals, save it. I don't want to hear it. You guys are making your beds, prepare to sleep in them.

The problem Terry, and I do agree with you there are a few, again A FEW young guys/gals out there who think they are entitled to everything and blow off the image because they arent gettin the quick upgrade and the big bucks, but back to the problem, isnt the youngins that are flying for 22 bucks an hour, its the old dawgs that allowed those payscales to be negotiated, debated, voted and ratified.

I see a lot (and this isnt aimed directly or just at you Terry) references about the younger pilots "taking" these low paying jobs and thus racing to the bottom. I think a lot of us need to take a hard look in the mirror and contemplate on where those low payscales came from. Which came first (to use another cliche, the chicken or the egg) the low time bratt that will pay 120K to fly for 18K a year, or the 18K a year?

I find it laughable that some think these new guys should pass up these lowpaying jobs to force the industry to raise wages, right! If a regional came knocking on your door with 1000TT and offered you a job flying a transport catergory airplane as opposed to being a CFI or flying freight in a 310 I'm sure most of us would have turned it down for the "greater good"

There is a steep decline in our pay, QOL, bennies, etc. But no one group is to blame or shoulders more or less blame. Until we all pull together as a pilot group, I say it again, as a GROUP, not some discombobulated congealed ameoba of elitist groups, we wont be able to stop the slide.

Is not wearing backpacks and adhering to our own FOM/GOM/whatverbook by 100% the answer? Partly, but threads like these where both ends of the spectrum try to one up each other by auggering each other into the ground doesnt further the cause. So what if young guys/gals with lower time are getting regional jet jobs, you older guys should be welcoming them with open arms and TEACHING them the ways. Younglings need to take a big bite of humble pie and then go back for seconds, THEN be willing to listen and LEARN, you dont have to argue every point, but on the same coin stand up and be heard when you have something important to add/say/contribute/etc. Old farts need the young farts just as much as the young farts need the old farts.
Again chicken or the egg, did the young cockiness come first or did the distane for low time pilots come first?

This isnt the first time lowtimers have been coming into the industry and I am willing to bet quite a few of the high timers on this board started out with less time than MOST guys are getting hired on with now. This also isnt the first time there has been animosity towards a group of people either. Just cause it aint the first time doesnt mean it CANT be the last!

Pull it together people, we are talking about backpacks here, does it look funky, sure it does, but no more funky than EAT AT BANNAN JOES CRAB AND BAR SHACK stickers on beat to he11 flight cases, or beer bellies that would make Rosanne Barr blush, etc. Its all about perspective and if all we can find to fight about amongst ourselves is choice of junk containers, the slide is only gonna get very slippery!

 

[hbrow15]

as 12 pages on this thread has displayed there are many different views on what is professional. I once had a instructor that was a DC-10 CPT for United(ret) he use to say how he didn't like to see guys with a stickers all over thier flightcase as DC-8 reffered to. I dont have stickers on my flight case because to me it looks tacky not even a Marine sticker of which I am very proud to have been a member. Someone i believe Rez O Leshun reference Military officers not wearing backpacks completely untrue. When I was in the Marine Corps we had two an Alice pack and a big ugly green one we called a Sea Bag(Duffle bag for you Army and Air Force types) when we report for Sea Duty on ship we carry our big ugly Sea Bag and guess what we are wearing ? our most identifiable uniform "Dress Blues". Someone also posted about the "kids with shiny jet syndrome" not holding up the bar like the older guys did before, but one major difference the older guys back in the day the bar that needed to be held up was concerning safety not pay, a regulated industry took care of that. Now to expect some 22 year old kid just starting out to hold up a bar during time the industry is going to through times where the older guys are loseing pensions and salaries are slowly getting closer to what the "kids" are making is crazy. None of these "kids" had anything to do with the influx of RJ's most of them were probably still in JR High when this started, so to say the industry is in the state that it's in is because some young buck is wearing a backpack lets get real. Many of these guys and gals simply dont know how to wear a uniform, like some of the guys i was in the crash pad with I gave them some tips I picked up in the Corps. Lets debate something more important than how someone choses how to cary a laptop on a 4 day.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Those airline pilots who went before are rolling over in their graves at this thread. Those who carried their suitcase (without wheels) in one hand, and their leather flight kit in the other. Ever seen the picture of Bob Buck on his first day at TWA in the book, "North Star Over My Shoulder"?

I'm so ashamed.

 

[acaTerry]

DC8 Flyer,

I agree with much of what you said. But the thing I just have to be obstinate on is the age issue. Now I am not just talking about age in years, but age as an aviator (i.e. how long they have been flying).
When I was at ACA, we had mins of 1800 / 300. Most of the FO's I flew with were in their late 20's and had several thousand hours of instructing or flying freight. There were no academies or other fast-track schools. The pilots did a time honored and well proven road to the airlines. And I was always able to count on proactive, mature, well-rounded FO's who were eager to do the job right. And funny enough, we had a lot of fun (can you believe it!).
Now, since the fast track has come along, we (the regional industry) have a bunch of inexperienced, immature whining babies who want to be airline pilots but find it too much to wear the uniform, get a haircut, and follow SOP. They do not want to learn the right way to do the job. They complain if the CA takes the plane after landing, if the CA tells them they need to shave EVERY duty day, etc. This new breed of pilots form the Nintendo generation are so bent on trying to change the world that they do not even try to do it right. They remind me of the kids on my daughters Nickelodeon commercials saying "LISTEN TO ME!". Hey, when you are new, it is better to have bigger ears than mouths.
The "chicks dig me" speeches and such is like high school. I have seen regional pilots playing tag in the terminal like little schoolkids, heard the word "dude" more times than I can stand, and we even have threads asking dating advice in here. To me that shows the indisputable link between age, maturity, and the ability to handle a MAN'S, not a boy's job. (Settle down libs---no sexism here).
Whenever a regional airliner crashes, what is the first thing you hear about in the press? That's right...young, inexperienced pilots are why the plane crashed. A meteor can hit a plane, but that would not be the focus. And so everytime someone has one, the regional industry has to prove itself. And right now, we are losing. The CVR transcripts on the PCL crash shout this much louder than anyone in this forum can.
And until the trend is reversed and the people who take these jobs conduct and present themselves as professionals, you will all have to fight a losing battle.

 

[wmuflyguy]

yea!!! CHIPOTLE burritos!!!!!!
i am addicted to those things, I wish they were in the airport.

truely a gutbomb

They are putting a Q-doba in Concourse C at CVG, it is the same as Chipotle(same size burritos and ingredients) with a little bit larger menu.

 

[Spinplate]

I fly for the guy who owns the Chipolte that is being built in the Vegas terminal!! Should be up in a few months I believe!!

 

[Photoflight]

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe people would find it appropriate to wear a backpack in uniform. I step right up and say I'm not a regional pilot nor do I want to be. I believe however that my granddad would slap the piss outta me if I complained about having to wear a hat and not being able wear a backpack. Get a haircut, iron your shirt, and take pride in your job. It may not pay the greatest right now but its your job and you knew the pay coming in(this is not to say you shouldn't fight for more).

 

[PCL_128]

acaTerry, I'm not so sure that the pilot factories are the problem. Many of the guys at Pinnacle that wear the backpack or don't iron their shirt or don't shave etc... are not that young and didn't go to one of the "academies." I think the problem is more with the management. Our CP used to wear white tennis shoes and carried a black trash bag for his overnight bag when he flew the line. He certainly doesn't enforce any sort of uniform policy, so the pilots are allowed to run wild. Some of us have enough professionalism to care about it ourselves, but many guys need the oversight of management to keep their appearance in check. Without a professional attitude and appearance from the top, things won't get any better.

 

[BenderGonzales]

ACATerry,

You're 100% dead on! Ernie Gann didn't complain about wearing a proper uniform. He was delighted to have the opportunity. That was back in the day when the Captain might not even let you touch the controls -- but Ernie dressed like a pro. You dress and act like a professional, and people treat you like one.

Pete Fusco didn't complain about wearing a uniform. He was flying shrunken heads and monkeys out of corosion corner in Miami -- passengers never even SAW the guy, but he wore his uniform with pride.

And I didn't complain about wearing the uniform the way it was supposed to be worn. 10 legs a day in a Metroliner in the Northeast, spinning the props after every leg.

What changed? Why do the young people who have started out in the industry post-09/11 not have the same pride? Why are they more interested in how their hair looks than in wearing the uniform (hat and all)?

When I started at the commuters, the minimums were 1500 TT, 500 ME. I was immature. I had no clue what I was doing. I probably had a big mouth and a bigger ego. But I was quickly whipped into shape by the old timers. I was PROUD to fly that little 19 seat piece of crap. I wore that uniform with pride and did my very best to show our customers that despite their feelings about the Metro -- the guys in front were professional airline pilots.

I sure wish I could figure out what changed? But it was sad. Today these kids do 30 second walkarounds. Their feet are off the rudder pedals before they hit 1500 feet. Their seatbacks are reclined so far that they look like some punk driving a golf-cart. Some wear sneakers with their uniforms. What are they thinking?

I'm in my late thirtys too. I left the airline industry for a bunch of reasons -- none of which were related to the newhire's appearance.

What's interesting is that I NEVER NOTICED these things while I was working at the airlines!!!

It wasn't until I started traveling more and more as a CUSTOMER that I began to take notice of the appearance of the F/Os on the regional jets. And i'll tell you that i'm not the only one. I've heard other passengers remark. Sure, their remarks were made jokingly. But do you think they hide some anxiety? Do you think that the people who are entrusting you with their LIVES might like to believe that if you take pride in your APPEARANCE you might also take pride in your craft?

I agree with ACATerry. I somehow doubt that the extra 500-1000 hours of flying single pilot, night freight would make that much of a difference. This is a generational change -- for the worse.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

ACATerry,It wasn't until I started traveling more and more as a CUSTOMER that I began to take notice of the appearance of the F/Os on the regional jets. And i'll tell you that i'm not the only one. I've heard other passengers remark. Sure, their remarks were made jokingly. But do you think they hide some anxiety?

While I agree with pretty much everything in your post, I must ask...are these people making "remarks" about the pilot's uniform appearance or the fact that they just look young? I hear the latter at least 5 times a day on average, and I wear my uniform properly and carry myself with pride. I look 18, and there really isn't much that I can do about it (although I am 24). I think that unless the flying public see's two guys that are obviously over 30 as their pilots, they are going to make some remarks about it...regardless of their uniform appearance.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

How is this thread connected to the Tipping the Van Driver Thread?

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=58712

The backpacks are representative of the larger issue: attitude.

5 pages on the topic of backpacks!! You guys are awsome! Ok...only tools wear backpacks but come on.....5 pages! Just listen to Paradoxus, although the regional pukes things is a bit harsh! 5 Pages, get a life losers!!

-Drama; im out!

CaptnVegetto is no longer an Air Line Pilot. No longer a player in the same game. (still a good pilot, I'm sure...) So I am wondering what his adamantcy is really all about?

Attitude

It seems the possibility of connecting the two (backpacks and no tipping) to an attitude.....