Pet peeves from the ATC folks

[smellthejeta]

Two peeves, both pilot related:

1. Pilots who pull up in line to the one departure runway at any relatively busy airport and call ready in sequence. It is stupid. You are number 5 in a line that is 20 deep. Keep your mouth shut. All you made the controller do is waste radio time telling you to hold short. When you get to be number one and nobody is on short final, they'll clear you for takeoff. If not, maybe then you can inquire. Also applies when you are number 1 at a runway with traffic on short final, and you call ready.

Whatever happened to the instruction, "MONITOR Tower?" That way everybody KNOWS to keep their mouth shut.

 

[smellthejeta]

Hey can you tell me where to get Jet-A for 2 dollar bucks a gallon?

Well... The airlines BUY Jet-A for $2 gallon, but they can't get it in the plane for that price. Gotta pay the hookup and flowage fee to the refueling company.

 

[MJG]

HoldWest,

Thanks for the straightshootin answers, they do help us understand your world. It's funny to see you guys (ATCers) and us guys (Pilots) fighting the same battle, negotiating with management. Guess some things never change.

You folks hang in there. I will remember to cut you guys some slack since you might be getting the ultimate shaft from Jane and Congress here in a couple months, I hope I'm wrong. The last things any of us need is less controllers who earn less than they should.

About Cleveland approach..........

Having flown out of CLE for the last 8 years all I can advise these days is to have both approaches briefed, tuned and ready to go. You won't know which you're getting until you've been cleared for that approach, no matter what any previous controller has told you to expect. It's absolutly infuriating if you're not used to it happening, hence lots of p.o.'d pilots who get this and go balistic. But if you understand the contraints of the airspace in CLE and the constraints of the airport setup, you'll understand that it's all done to help increase the arrival rate. It beats sitting on the ground somewhere waiting for your release time to CLE when the wx is severe clear the whole way there.

 

[smellthejeta]

Jane

? Last I checked, it was (is) Marion.

 

[MJG]

Whoops !!

Where'd I get Jane from?? She was the previous admin for the FAA right ??

 

[AZaviator]

Yeah, I used to LOVE listening to pilots unfamiliar w/ ops at LAS call up the tower w/ a "Ready for takeoff or Ready in Sequence". As they would make this mistake over on the 19's, you could practically feel the rage of the controller boiling over. We would literally cringe and duck, as if the Great Hand of the Almighty was going to reach right through the radio and strangle someone. On a good day, the reply was simply, "Roger". On a bad day, anything from, "I know" to "Don't call us, we'll call you!"

Years ago I was a CFI and flew out of Deer Valley Airport in Phoenix. The controllers there were decent for the most part considering they had two major flight schools on the field and lots of student pilots and low time pilots constantly flying in and out. On the ATIS, it specifically said "call tower only when you are #1 at the hold line." SEveral times I would hear this conversation:

Pilot: N12345 is ready for departure.
DVT Tower: N12345, cleared for takeoff
Pilot: N12345 is currently #3 for takeoff.
DVT Tower: N12345 you obviously didn't understand the complete ATIS, listen to it again and call me when you understand it.

Very funny when listening to it, but had to be very frustrating on the controllers side.

 

[Diesel]

Why is that you haven't figured out a citation X goes .92 mach. When we're cruising at 450 or 470 and we are descending into LAX why is it a suprise that we are overtaking everyone? We've been following the same two united jets since they took off out of LGA an hour before. We've watched them on the tcas and can see we are about to overrun them then as soon as we start down its, "turn 40 right reduce to .75 and descend to FL230."

So much for the speed.

PS NYC and BOS controllers are the best. They will let you know when to speak.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

How about the jet drivers that think they have movement area immunity, if they just got off a runway apperently they can taxi on the taxiway and give me a call just as they enter the ramp. NEGATIVE guys, ill take you down for that one.

Instructors who get an entry instruction, then turn down the radio to instruct all the while, im issuing traffic, ammedning instructions etc....no answer. That is how you get kicked out of my airspace.

Instructors and students who have been on my freq for 10 mins inbound...get short final, then ask for the option. Did you just decide at that minute that is what your intentions were.

Robot pilots who get used to doing the same thing over and over that when you switch runway configurations, ask for something out of the ordinary and they just cant handle it.

Pilots who give me crap when I ommitt vis or skycover in my atis. better then 5 and 5 I dont have to say crap!

When its 25000 overcast and a pilot on the ground says...it says sky clear on the atis and the sky isn't clear ground.....no S.... we don't report anything above 12000ft so shut up!

The pilots who don't know what position and hold means....they just hold short of the runway and i have to explain to them what it means and by that time its too late....Hold short idiot....and it usually isn't student pilots, these are your typical bonanza/SR22 pilots.

The little wanna be jet jockies that spend millions on the gnatts and fuga's and escra jets and tell me that can't fly any slower than 250kts on the downwind....Okay fine....see you, exit my airspace, call me on a 5 mile final at 200kts or slower for your full stop, unable touch and go or low approach, Im not working you at that speed with cessnas in the pattern.

Pilots who look at the DG or HSI that says W hence flying west.....so that would make them east of the airport correct....tower n12345 6 west kilo to land.....n12345 enter right base runway 14 report 3 out. Tower we are better set up for a left base....duh......um, sir verify your west of the airport.....no we are east of the airport....well then tell me that the frist time j/a..

 

[Check 6]

Feel better?

 

[kf4amu]

Instructors and students who have been on my freq for 10 mins inbound...get short final, then ask for the option. Did you just decide at that minute that is what your intentions were.

Guilty as charged but its been a long time. I havent done a touch n go at a towered ap in years. Duly noted.

Pilots who give me crap when I ommitt vis or skycover in my atis. better then 5 and 5 I dont have to say crap!

I didnt know that, interesting.

When its 25000 overcast and a pilot on the ground says...it says sky clear on the atis and the sky isn't clear ground.....no S.... we don't report anything above 12000ft so shut up!

Another interesting factoid. This is where pilot/controller beer night would be a great help.

 

[threegreen]

What's position and hold?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

What's position and hold?

I have failed to get the humor here

 

[Kream926]

What's position and hold?

line up and wait, if you're european


speaking if such, i teach alot of JAA students so they mix the "hold your position" and "position and hold"

they get all dumbfounded with me when i tell em to start rollin and they look at me like im from outer space. the one time i let the same kid get it from tower when they werent busy real early one morn, unplugged his speaker jack and asked tower to issue such command. "cessna 12345 position and hold"
and he reads back "position and hold". o boy did he get it from em. sometimes you gotta let em crash and burn (not literally) on their own before they get it. hasnt made that mistake since

 

[whaleroast]

Freq switch:

'Blah, switch to my frequency ###.##'

Do you guys appreciate a call like:

'Blah has made the switch.'

Or are you assuming it has been done and any communication is redundant?

 

[kf4amu]

As a 911 dispatcher I can vouch for the "callup without a purpose" pet peeve. My biggest pet peeve workin a fire/ems operations channel is someone saying "unit # dispatch" without asking or saying anything.

What, you didnt ask a question or state a problem. What you said makes no sense. I shouldnt even acknowledge your stupidity by responding.

WHO MADE THIS ACCEPTED AND "PROPER" RADIO PROCEDURE!!! AAAHHHH!!

For instance....simple request, such as an ambulance going off duty, any status changes (enroute, on scene etc), aircraft requesting different altitude, a different approach, etc etc.

XXX: "XXX dispatch (approach, whateveR)"
ATC/911: "GO AHEAD"
XXX: "Request blah blah....Medic 24 enroute (whatever)"
ATC/911: "10-4, affirmative, roger, whatever"

4 transmissions when you REALLY need....

XXX: "Medic 24 enroute/request 6000"
ATC/911: Medic 24 10-4, roger whatever/6000 approved"

DONE, less than half the time.

ARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH, so friggin annoying. Im doin a ATC minor, thinkin about being a controller but I dont know if I could do this my whole life. I know I couldnt be a 911 dispatcher all my life.

 

[Princedietrich]

As a freight dawg that goes in and out of CLE and BKL frequently, here's my major gripe. Just last week I did a leg from BKL to LCK in a Caravan. I was assigned 360 at 2000 for at least 7 or 8 miles (rough estimate, the crib was WAY behind me and downtown looked really small). I then got a turn to 280 for several more miles. Abeam CLE I was cleared to 6000. When I got abeam Lorain, it was a turn south. It was somewhere around Medina before I finally got "on course."

So here's my question.

Would it not have been easier to keep me low and have me go south from BKL so I'd be under and out of the way of the heavy metal? It would get me home sooner and you wouldn't have to deal with me as long.

I do like doing the night freight thing when it comes to ATC. Most times, I'm either the only one going into the airport so the airspace is all mine. The rest of the time I'm going into that airport with other freight dawgs who are just as crazy as I am. Plus, controllers on the graveyard shift seem to be rather bored and kinda lonely so there's potential for good conversation.

Here's one that I'll pass on to you ATC guys. I don't know if you're graveyard shift controllers, but if you need a Starchecker to do a slam dunk or a high and fast don't hesitate to ask. We'll not only pull it off, but we'll look good doing it and will be thanking you for it.


To lighten the mood, here's one that I heard way back when during my CFII days. We were over southern Ohio talking to Indy Center, and a pilot chimed in on frequency "with a query." The controller's response was "You know what a query is right?" Several moments of confused silence, then the controller responded by saying "a straight question." My student and I were busting a gut, and I was wondering if it was actually legal for him to say something like that on ATC. Oh, in case it didn't come across clearly in the translation to written text, the pilot pronounced it "queery."

One day at BWI during a really nasty rainstorm, we were in the full grip of a massive gate hold and saw a Mooney taxiing out. The Mooney chimed in and asked the controller to "say conditions," and anyone could tell that he was trying to get the controller to say on tape that it was visual conditions so the Mooney could depart VFR. The controller's response was "look out the window." The Mooney pilot got all huffy and berated the controller for being so rude, but personally I think the guy deserved to get his chops busted for such a stupid question.

Finally, here's a really humorous one. Working as a starving CFI/slave at BKL years ago, I was in an office that was about 10 feet down the hallway from the door leading to the control tower stairs. One controller, a rather teddy-bearish and friendly fellow named Steve, was getting ready to go upstairs and go on shift when the door suffered a bit of a malfunction. The doorknob came off in his hand and he couldn't get in. He got on the phone to the cab and was yelling in desperation for Jack (the on duty controller) to come down and let him in because "the damn door handle fell off!" The next day, a sign had been placed on the door stating "this door has been rendered inoperative by the control tower gorilla."

 

[Say Again Over]

so they mix the "hold your position" and "position and hold"

they get all dumbfounded with me when i tell em to start rollin by kream

Sounds like they need to learn English first, "position and hold", "hold short", "hold your position", all nice things to know if your a pilot.

 

[threegreen]

Whats the big deal about calling ATC first before stating your request... ATC does it to us when they have an unusual request, and it usually helps more than it hurts.

Sometimes ATC is on the land line, telling a joke, drinking coffee, whatever and may not be able to process the entirety of the request the first time it's transmitted unless an 'attention-getting' xmission is used. Same goes for pilots.

 

[GVFlyer]

ATC Guys...

Yesterday's Wall Street Journal said average controller pay was $166,000.00, what do the most senior controllers make?

GV

 

[kf4amu]

Whats the big deal about calling ATC first before stating your request... ATC does it to us when they have an unusual request, and it usually helps more than it hurts.

Sometimes ATC is on the land line, telling a joke, drinking coffee, whatever and may not be able to process the entirety of the request the first time it's transmitted unless an 'attention-getting' xmission is used. Same goes for pilots.

I think the key word is "unusual request". In this case, I agree. Most transmissions are not unusual.

Why do it in 4 if you can do it in 2 just as easily? And if they (pilot or ATC) misses it the first time, and the other party needs to repeat it, you still only have 3 transmissions instead of 4.

 

[CalifDan]

Why do it in 4 if you can do it in 2 just as easily? And if they (pilot or ATC) misses it the first time, and the other party needs to repeat it, you still only have 3 transmissions instead of 4.

You still have 4. I have worked emergency response although many years ago. The system is sufficiently different to allow many communications to occur with short and completely or partially coded content.

I agree that an initial "unexpected" call to ATC should be just to get their attention.

 

[LarryinTN]

better then 5 and 5 I dont have to say crap!

That's correct. Just understand that to those of us who fly bigger, faster airplanes there is an operational difference between 6SM OVC055 and 25SM SKC and we appreciate the additional information when it is given on ATIS (as it usually is).

 

[Hold West]

Then why is it so uncommon to hear it?

Please tell me why it would be tough to coordinate an extra five seconds into your perfect vectors to ask one little question?

Then you wouldn't have to hear people telling you "we've got the field when it helps" or reading back your approach clearance with "uh...we've got the field in sight....can we get a visual?".

I tend to think things are simpler than they are, but maybe you could educate me to the contrary...sarcasm not needed.

Well, I'd say because for the most part I don't care if you do a visual approach or not. You want a visual approach. I plan, mostly, on setting you up in a good position from which to execute an instrument approach to the runway in use. All of us have burned ourselves enough vectoring someone in close for a visual approach, then finding a couple of clouds in just the wrong place - and then having no where to go with the aircraft.

For whatever reason, I feel like I'm waking some people up when I issue an approach clearance, and they suddenly look out the window and say "oh, hey, airport in sight!"

I once got the best "airport in sight" report EVER - vectoring a 717 for an approach, following a 737, going over the top of a C208, and with a United 757 off to one side getting set up to follow the 717. The 717 pilot all of a sudden pipes up, "Center, we have the 737, the Caravan, United, and the airport in sight!" Game over! When I was done cracking up, I cleared him to "maintain visual separation from the caravan and the 757, follow the 737, cleared visual approach!" That guy really had the flick!

 

[NJAFracPilot]

ATC Pay

Yesterday's Wall Street Journal said average controller pay was $166,000.00, what do the most senior controllers make?

GV

I'd kinda like to know, too.

 

[minitour]

...I don't care...

Next time you need someone to do something funky for separation on your end, remember those three words.

-mini

 

[Vector4fun]

Yesterday's Wall Street Journal said average controller pay was $166,000.00, what do the most senior controllers make?

GV

Bullshat.

The *average* controller doesn't make that unless he worked at a major hub every weekend, Holidays, lots of nights, and did a fair amount of overtime to boot. I've got 26 years and made about $60,000 less than that in pay. Now, they want to add on the claimed value of bennies like health and life, retirement, etc., then you probably can come close to that figure. But pay? Nope.

And by the way, I make about $10-15K more than the average controller at my facility.

 

[flyflorida2001]

Here's one

Great Thread.

Hey...what do pilots and controllers have in common?


When the pilot screws up...the pilot dies

When the controller screws up....the pilot dies



Great job ATC guys....love what ya do for us.

 

[Hold West]

I'd kinda like to know, too.

I don't know nothin' about averages. I do know, with 22 years in, working in a facility paid at the second highest ATC rate the FAA has, I grossed about 152,000 last year. I'm probably in the top fifth in terms of pay amongst the controllers in our facility.

That number includes holidays, nights, overtime, etc. Average here is probably (I'm guessing) about 120k.

 

[Hold West]

Next time you need someone to do something funky for separation on your end, remember those three words.

-mini

Jeez, dude, don't take it personally. I'm just saying it doesn't matter to me - doesn't affect me a whole lot. And that's why I say if YOU want it, call the field in sight early and often, I'm almost always happy to oblige. This thread is officially beaten to death.

 

[Hold West]

Whats the big deal about calling ATC first before stating your request... ATC does it to us when they have an unusual request, and it usually helps more than it hurts.

Sometimes ATC is on the land line, telling a joke, drinking coffee, whatever and may not be able to process the entirety of the request the first time it's transmitted unless an 'attention-getting' xmission is used. Same goes for pilots.

Depends on what it is. The one that makes me grind my teeth is the one that comes right after I talk to you anyway:

"Minneapolis Center, Cessna 28W, 5,000."
"Cessna 29W, Minneapolis Center, roger."
"And, uh, center, Cessna 29W, request."
"Cessna 29W, go ahead"
"Cessna 29W request climb to 7,000"
"Cessna 29W, climb and maintain 7,000"
"Cessna 29W, leaving 5,000 for 7,000"

Now, if have some lengthy request, by all means give me a heads up. I do appreciate that. If it's a relatively routine request, just go ahead and spit it out.

One more consideration for this thread: don't give me too much detail:

"Center, Cessna 29W, request radar vectors for the ILS followed by the published miss and vectors for another ILS, then three turns in holding at the VOR, then the VOR-A approach via the procedure turn, and we'll finish up with a few touch-and-goes."

Dang, I won't remember all that, take it in bite-sized chunks as we need it.