Pet peeves from the ATC folks

[Check 6]

Great discussion. Overall the US has the best ATC and best ATCO's in the world. Until January, I was domiciled in Europe (S. Italy) for the past 6-1/2 years with flights throughout Europe, NW Asia, and N. Africa.

There are some great ATCO's in Europe but it is a matter of scale. The UK for instance has great controllers, but it is a small island. The French are so bad that when we flew to/from London we filed Italy-Switzerland-Germany-Belgium-London. Oh did I leave France out? Yep, it was actually only 5-10 minutes further but we got to fly over the Alps, got intercepted by the Swiss F-18's (makes for great air-air photos), and did not have to contact Paris Control or Brist Control.

The most casual controllers: Italy. Bust some restricted airpspace (forget to turn) and they will advise that you have entered restricted airspace followed by "....anyway, turn right heading xxx." That is the end of the issue.

Or how about being level at FL270 (in Class A) and say "Rome, XXX cancelling IFR, going operational" and the controller says "talk to you in two hours this frequency." I just love TCAS. The same for the Greeks and Spanish; "request VFR between A1000 and FL340 (Class A airspace)." "XXX you are cleared between A1000 and FL340 and request that you monitor this frequency if possible for traffic advisories."

My gripe: when asked to Squawk XXXX, the response is "coming down." How cool, NOT.

 

[j41driver]

At Hopkins, you will fly the double downwind (from CXR direct to the airport and then back out on the downwind if landing the 24s). You will fly it no faster than 170. You will have 100 mile long final. And no one will be getting an approach to a different runway.

Ah yes...the CLE clear weather avoidance procedure.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

B757s, 767s, and A300s especially flying freight. I know you guys are often light on the way in, but I swear, I've got Caravans and Centurions doing S-turns to try to follow you from 10 miles in. Can't you at least do 160 kts to the freakin marker? I'm getting groundspeeds in the 100-110 kt catagory from you guys on final, right up there with the C-172SPs. :uzi:

Great thread BTW!

Let's see ... I fly for a large overnight freight company that operates all 3 of those aircraft so let me take a stab. Several years ago our procedures changed to make it MANDATORY to be at final approach speed, fully configured, engines spooled (stabilized) BY the 1000' point on the approach. There is NO CHOICE or discretion in the matter. If you are not stabilized by 1000' it is a MANDATORY go-around! (Recently one of our captains faced a termination hearing for not executing a go-around when not stabilized.)

With a 3 degree glideslope, the 1000' occurs approximately 3 1/3 miles prior to touchdown. Requesting us to maintain 160 or 180 to the marker (commonly 5 miles from touchdown) leaves us barely 1.5 miles to lose 50-70 knots! If you are not aware, that is rarely possible in a 757/767 (depending upon weight and corresponding target speed.)

Additionally, now well into our 4th year of contract negotiations our employer is increasingly using the threat of termination/discipline for slight procedural infractions while operating their aircraft. As a result, many pilots have adopted a very conservative approach toward configuring early and being stabilized in plenty of time. Since there is no benefit (on our end) to come blasting in fast and hang it all out at the last minute and a lot of potential harm to one's career if it doesn't quite work out, I imagine most pilots are operating their aircraft in the SAFEST possible manner even if that takes a few more minutes of flight time.

I hope this has helped to clarify the situation. Thanks to you and Hold West for your insights!

BBB

 

[Vector4fun]

BBB,

Thanks for the post. I'll try sliding that one off my Pet Peeve list and put it on my mildly annoying list. :beer:

 

[Lostdog65]

BBB...let me guess...It's brown...gold highlights...and lives somewhere in KY...

Close?

Eric
Small Feeder Trash

 

[Big Beer Belly]

BBB...let me guess...It's brown...gold highlights...and lives somewhere in KY...

Close?

Eric
Small Feeder Trash

Ding ... Ding ... Ding ... give that man a :beer:

If history is any predictor, it's going to have to get worse before it gets better. Wish it were different.

BBB

 

[minitour]

Golly, I never thought of that.

Then why is it so uncommon to hear it?

Please tell me why it would be tough to coordinate an extra five seconds into your perfect vectors to ask one little question?

Then you wouldn't have to hear people telling you "we've got the field when it helps" or reading back your approach clearance with "uh...we've got the field in sight....can we get a visual?".

I tend to think things are simpler than they are, but maybe you could educate me to the contrary...sarcasm not needed.

Thanks!

-mini

*edit*
PS Attn CLE Controllers: If I'm abeam the numbers for 24R/L in a Skyhawk at 2 miles out...something tells me I can make it in before you have to send me out over the lake (coming in from the NW) for a 4 mile final to the left side....so like I said twice. "Can I turn base?" I realize the 737 had 120ish people on board, but I could have used the other runway...no one else was....

 

[Lostdog65]

BBB...I've seen the posters. Always wondered why they told you how to fly the airplane? Do they think weather/ATC will always be the same everywhere you go? They must. Didn't think they'd go so far as to threaten the pilot for MAKING A PIC DECISION! Sorry...sore subject.

Eric

 

[smellthejeta]

What are you filing as your aircraft type? The Eclipse is a DV20, if you are filing DA20, that's wrong. I might even bite on that one for a sec, confusing it with the Falcon 20 (FA20).

If it's a radio thing, what are you giving as your aircraft type? Diamond? Diamond Eclipse? DA20-C1 (shudder)? Curious about this. I would call it a Diamond Eclipse (Make/model) I think, but just Eclipse should get the idea across.

The aircraft type prefix for some Dassault products are listed as "DA-" all Falcon jet products are supposed to begin with F as their FAA 4 digit type identifier. That doesn't stop a few Dassault pilots from filing as a "DA20" or "DA50" or the like.

 

[smellthejeta]

I've filed DA20. Definately use DV20 from now on. For the call sign, we just use Diamond. I think using Eclipse would cause more confusion, being too specific since a lot of people still refer to them as Katanas, which is close enough for me.

Diamond? You'll get confusion with that possibly as well. Mitsubishi made a predecessor to the BeechJet, called a Diamond Jet.

 

[smellthejeta]

Two peeves, both pilot related:

1. Pilots who pull up in line to the one departure runway at any relatively busy airport and call ready in sequence. It is stupid. You are number 5 in a line that is 20 deep. Keep your mouth shut. All you made the controller do is waste radio time telling you to hold short. When you get to be number one and nobody is on short final, they'll clear you for takeoff. If not, maybe then you can inquire. Also applies when you are number 1 at a runway with traffic on short final, and you call ready.

Whatever happened to the instruction, "MONITOR Tower?" That way everybody KNOWS to keep their mouth shut.

 

[smellthejeta]

Hey can you tell me where to get Jet-A for 2 dollar bucks a gallon?

Well... The airlines BUY Jet-A for $2 gallon, but they can't get it in the plane for that price. Gotta pay the hookup and flowage fee to the refueling company.

 

[MJG]

HoldWest,

Thanks for the straightshootin answers, they do help us understand your world. It's funny to see you guys (ATCers) and us guys (Pilots) fighting the same battle, negotiating with management. Guess some things never change.

You folks hang in there. I will remember to cut you guys some slack since you might be getting the ultimate shaft from Jane and Congress here in a couple months, I hope I'm wrong. The last things any of us need is less controllers who earn less than they should.

About Cleveland approach..........

Having flown out of CLE for the last 8 years all I can advise these days is to have both approaches briefed, tuned and ready to go. You won't know which you're getting until you've been cleared for that approach, no matter what any previous controller has told you to expect. It's absolutly infuriating if you're not used to it happening, hence lots of p.o.'d pilots who get this and go balistic. But if you understand the contraints of the airspace in CLE and the constraints of the airport setup, you'll understand that it's all done to help increase the arrival rate. It beats sitting on the ground somewhere waiting for your release time to CLE when the wx is severe clear the whole way there.

 

[smellthejeta]

Jane

? Last I checked, it was (is) Marion.

 

[MJG]

Whoops !!

Where'd I get Jane from?? She was the previous admin for the FAA right ??

 

[AZaviator]

Yeah, I used to LOVE listening to pilots unfamiliar w/ ops at LAS call up the tower w/ a "Ready for takeoff or Ready in Sequence". As they would make this mistake over on the 19's, you could practically feel the rage of the controller boiling over. We would literally cringe and duck, as if the Great Hand of the Almighty was going to reach right through the radio and strangle someone. On a good day, the reply was simply, "Roger". On a bad day, anything from, "I know" to "Don't call us, we'll call you!"

Years ago I was a CFI and flew out of Deer Valley Airport in Phoenix. The controllers there were decent for the most part considering they had two major flight schools on the field and lots of student pilots and low time pilots constantly flying in and out. On the ATIS, it specifically said "call tower only when you are #1 at the hold line." SEveral times I would hear this conversation:

Pilot: N12345 is ready for departure.
DVT Tower: N12345, cleared for takeoff
Pilot: N12345 is currently #3 for takeoff.
DVT Tower: N12345 you obviously didn't understand the complete ATIS, listen to it again and call me when you understand it.

Very funny when listening to it, but had to be very frustrating on the controllers side.

 

[Diesel]

Why is that you haven't figured out a citation X goes .92 mach. When we're cruising at 450 or 470 and we are descending into LAX why is it a suprise that we are overtaking everyone? We've been following the same two united jets since they took off out of LGA an hour before. We've watched them on the tcas and can see we are about to overrun them then as soon as we start down its, "turn 40 right reduce to .75 and descend to FL230."

So much for the speed.

PS NYC and BOS controllers are the best. They will let you know when to speak.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

How about the jet drivers that think they have movement area immunity, if they just got off a runway apperently they can taxi on the taxiway and give me a call just as they enter the ramp. NEGATIVE guys, ill take you down for that one.

Instructors who get an entry instruction, then turn down the radio to instruct all the while, im issuing traffic, ammedning instructions etc....no answer. That is how you get kicked out of my airspace.

Instructors and students who have been on my freq for 10 mins inbound...get short final, then ask for the option. Did you just decide at that minute that is what your intentions were.

Robot pilots who get used to doing the same thing over and over that when you switch runway configurations, ask for something out of the ordinary and they just cant handle it.

Pilots who give me crap when I ommitt vis or skycover in my atis. better then 5 and 5 I dont have to say crap!

When its 25000 overcast and a pilot on the ground says...it says sky clear on the atis and the sky isn't clear ground.....no S.... we don't report anything above 12000ft so shut up!

The pilots who don't know what position and hold means....they just hold short of the runway and i have to explain to them what it means and by that time its too late....Hold short idiot....and it usually isn't student pilots, these are your typical bonanza/SR22 pilots.

The little wanna be jet jockies that spend millions on the gnatts and fuga's and escra jets and tell me that can't fly any slower than 250kts on the downwind....Okay fine....see you, exit my airspace, call me on a 5 mile final at 200kts or slower for your full stop, unable touch and go or low approach, Im not working you at that speed with cessnas in the pattern.

Pilots who look at the DG or HSI that says W hence flying west.....so that would make them east of the airport correct....tower n12345 6 west kilo to land.....n12345 enter right base runway 14 report 3 out. Tower we are better set up for a left base....duh......um, sir verify your west of the airport.....no we are east of the airport....well then tell me that the frist time j/a..

 

[Check 6]

Feel better?

 

[kf4amu]

Instructors and students who have been on my freq for 10 mins inbound...get short final, then ask for the option. Did you just decide at that minute that is what your intentions were.

Guilty as charged but its been a long time. I havent done a touch n go at a towered ap in years. Duly noted.

Pilots who give me crap when I ommitt vis or skycover in my atis. better then 5 and 5 I dont have to say crap!

I didnt know that, interesting.

When its 25000 overcast and a pilot on the ground says...it says sky clear on the atis and the sky isn't clear ground.....no S.... we don't report anything above 12000ft so shut up!

Another interesting factoid. This is where pilot/controller beer night would be a great help.