Pet peeves from the ATC folks

[Hold West]

The bottle neck in the national airspace system has never been enroute, it's been in a simple lack of pavement at the airports.

We told you so:

John Carr, President of the National Air Traffic Controllers' Association, testifying before Congress, April 24, 2001:

"Fifty miles of concrete poured at our nation’s 25 busiest airports will solve most of our aviation delays."

 

[Hold West]

I understand all of the above, and you have a point. It's the really egregious examples that get me. The guys who come sailing onto a midfield downwind at 10,000' and 300 kts gs, (when they were assigned 3000' 20 miles back), at a measely 1500 fpm descent, and then start chippin for the visual. "We got the field in sight" Yeah, I heard you the first time, and when you get that puppy down to about 4000' and slowed up to about 210 kts, and I know approximately what county you're going to be able to turn base leg in, I'll figure out who you're gonna follow.

The other problem I have is, since we don't exclude many of the GA overflights, I've got them from 6000' to 12,000, and also piston and turboprop arrivals to neighboring facilities descending through parts of my airspace. It helps if I can hustle you down through all that. The longer you're above around 6000', the longer you're a potential conflict with all that traffic not even landing at this airport. You're a conflict with the overs and the departures climbing and crossing. It would be nice to segregate all that traffic, but we can't do that without a lot more airspace.

Vector4Fun, thanks for chiming in. I'm happy to have someone else's viewpoint here, too!

 

[Vector4fun]

OK, one more;

Look, you're motoring down final in your C172 at 100 kts at the "big" airport, trying to mesh with the other traffic. There's a couple folks waiting at the hold short line, and another two or so on final behind ya. The first turnoff is about 2200' down, the second is 3400' from the threshold, and the third is 5400'. If you can't chop the throttle and start feeding in flaps at a mile, and make at least the second turnoff, 3400' from the threshold, in a freakin Skyhawk, with a 10 to 20 kt headwind... $@#&&**#*&$#!!!

It ain't hard folks, I can always make the first turnoff. For crying out loud, 2200' is more runway than I had to solo on. You are the blue-haired little old lady doing 40mph in the left lane with the stuck turn signal. You're a freaking road block. Every time you loaf the whole mile to the third turnoff, I loose two departure slots. Get off the freakin runway!




Have a nice day......

 

[charter dog]

It ain't hard folks, I can always make the first turnoff.

Betcha my podunk country airstrip where I learned was shorter than yours! With higher obstacles at both ends and less predictable winds to boot!

All kidding aside, it is less common to see Skyhawk pilots execute the "high-speed chop & drop, make the first turnoff" successfully. CFIs are understandably reluctant to teach their students to do this, even if they can do it themselves. Landing incidents/accidents related to marginal aircraft handling skills are an ongoing problem which plagues GA. It's not just flat spotted tires either, read the daily prelim data at FAA.gov. Like all tower controllers, i'm sure you've witnessed your share of landing accidents/incidents.

Personally, i'd like to see a greater emphasis placed on aircraft handling and maneuvering in flight training. However, the modern trend is in the opposite direction IMHO.

I don't know if it helps at your tower, but at the airport where I am based, the controllers often advise "Cleared to land runway 16R, plan minimum time on the runway for following traffic" or words to that effect. It's quite a mouthfull, but it seems to help a little if given at the right time. The way that they take care of us, i'll do anything in my power to help them. I'd put our tower controllers up against any I've dealt with in the USA, but then maybe I'm biased! Their crisp professionalism and cooperative attitude seems to bring out the best in all of us. With the mix of props, jets and flingwings, it does get interesting at times.

Thanks for sharing this pet peeve. Hopefully, some will take notice of what you said, and give it some consideration next time.

Best,

 

[gkrangers]

Well I wouldn't say it is something that should be taught...BUT, as a pilot, you learn what the airplane can and cannot do, how it handles, etc...

Most pilots should be able to put it on the threshold and get off at the first taxiway, whether is is a normal approach, or steep, or high, or both...in a Skyhawk anyway.

"Mastery of the aircraft", right?

 

[Check 6]

Great discussion. Overall the US has the best ATC and best ATCO's in the world. Until January, I was domiciled in Europe (S. Italy) for the past 6-1/2 years with flights throughout Europe, NW Asia, and N. Africa.

There are some great ATCO's in Europe but it is a matter of scale. The UK for instance has great controllers, but it is a small island. The French are so bad that when we flew to/from London we filed Italy-Switzerland-Germany-Belgium-London. Oh did I leave France out? Yep, it was actually only 5-10 minutes further but we got to fly over the Alps, got intercepted by the Swiss F-18's (makes for great air-air photos), and did not have to contact Paris Control or Brist Control.

The most casual controllers: Italy. Bust some restricted airpspace (forget to turn) and they will advise that you have entered restricted airspace followed by "....anyway, turn right heading xxx." That is the end of the issue.

Or how about being level at FL270 (in Class A) and say "Rome, XXX cancelling IFR, going operational" and the controller says "talk to you in two hours this frequency." I just love TCAS. The same for the Greeks and Spanish; "request VFR between A1000 and FL340 (Class A airspace)." "XXX you are cleared between A1000 and FL340 and request that you monitor this frequency if possible for traffic advisories."

My gripe: when asked to Squawk XXXX, the response is "coming down." How cool, NOT.

 

[j41driver]

At Hopkins, you will fly the double downwind (from CXR direct to the airport and then back out on the downwind if landing the 24s). You will fly it no faster than 170. You will have 100 mile long final. And no one will be getting an approach to a different runway.

Ah yes...the CLE clear weather avoidance procedure.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

B757s, 767s, and A300s especially flying freight. I know you guys are often light on the way in, but I swear, I've got Caravans and Centurions doing S-turns to try to follow you from 10 miles in. Can't you at least do 160 kts to the freakin marker? I'm getting groundspeeds in the 100-110 kt catagory from you guys on final, right up there with the C-172SPs. :uzi:

Great thread BTW!

Let's see ... I fly for a large overnight freight company that operates all 3 of those aircraft so let me take a stab. Several years ago our procedures changed to make it MANDATORY to be at final approach speed, fully configured, engines spooled (stabilized) BY the 1000' point on the approach. There is NO CHOICE or discretion in the matter. If you are not stabilized by 1000' it is a MANDATORY go-around! (Recently one of our captains faced a termination hearing for not executing a go-around when not stabilized.)

With a 3 degree glideslope, the 1000' occurs approximately 3 1/3 miles prior to touchdown. Requesting us to maintain 160 or 180 to the marker (commonly 5 miles from touchdown) leaves us barely 1.5 miles to lose 50-70 knots! If you are not aware, that is rarely possible in a 757/767 (depending upon weight and corresponding target speed.)

Additionally, now well into our 4th year of contract negotiations our employer is increasingly using the threat of termination/discipline for slight procedural infractions while operating their aircraft. As a result, many pilots have adopted a very conservative approach toward configuring early and being stabilized in plenty of time. Since there is no benefit (on our end) to come blasting in fast and hang it all out at the last minute and a lot of potential harm to one's career if it doesn't quite work out, I imagine most pilots are operating their aircraft in the SAFEST possible manner even if that takes a few more minutes of flight time.

I hope this has helped to clarify the situation. Thanks to you and Hold West for your insights!

BBB

 

[Vector4fun]

BBB,

Thanks for the post. I'll try sliding that one off my Pet Peeve list and put it on my mildly annoying list. :beer:

 

[Lostdog65]

BBB...let me guess...It's brown...gold highlights...and lives somewhere in KY...

Close?

Eric
Small Feeder Trash

 

[Big Beer Belly]

BBB...let me guess...It's brown...gold highlights...and lives somewhere in KY...

Close?

Eric
Small Feeder Trash

Ding ... Ding ... Ding ... give that man a :beer:

If history is any predictor, it's going to have to get worse before it gets better. Wish it were different.

BBB

 

[minitour]

Golly, I never thought of that.

Then why is it so uncommon to hear it?

Please tell me why it would be tough to coordinate an extra five seconds into your perfect vectors to ask one little question?

Then you wouldn't have to hear people telling you "we've got the field when it helps" or reading back your approach clearance with "uh...we've got the field in sight....can we get a visual?".

I tend to think things are simpler than they are, but maybe you could educate me to the contrary...sarcasm not needed.

Thanks!

-mini

*edit*
PS Attn CLE Controllers: If I'm abeam the numbers for 24R/L in a Skyhawk at 2 miles out...something tells me I can make it in before you have to send me out over the lake (coming in from the NW) for a 4 mile final to the left side....so like I said twice. "Can I turn base?" I realize the 737 had 120ish people on board, but I could have used the other runway...no one else was....

 

[Lostdog65]

BBB...I've seen the posters. Always wondered why they told you how to fly the airplane? Do they think weather/ATC will always be the same everywhere you go? They must. Didn't think they'd go so far as to threaten the pilot for MAKING A PIC DECISION! Sorry...sore subject.

Eric

 

[smellthejeta]

What are you filing as your aircraft type? The Eclipse is a DV20, if you are filing DA20, that's wrong. I might even bite on that one for a sec, confusing it with the Falcon 20 (FA20).

If it's a radio thing, what are you giving as your aircraft type? Diamond? Diamond Eclipse? DA20-C1 (shudder)? Curious about this. I would call it a Diamond Eclipse (Make/model) I think, but just Eclipse should get the idea across.

The aircraft type prefix for some Dassault products are listed as "DA-" all Falcon jet products are supposed to begin with F as their FAA 4 digit type identifier. That doesn't stop a few Dassault pilots from filing as a "DA20" or "DA50" or the like.

 

[smellthejeta]

I've filed DA20. Definately use DV20 from now on. For the call sign, we just use Diamond. I think using Eclipse would cause more confusion, being too specific since a lot of people still refer to them as Katanas, which is close enough for me.

Diamond? You'll get confusion with that possibly as well. Mitsubishi made a predecessor to the BeechJet, called a Diamond Jet.