Pet peeves from the ATC folks

[Hold West]

Do you expect a "traffic in sight" or "negative contact" reply from pilots when you issue a traffic advisory to high altitude aircraft? (class A airspace) Or since visual separation cannot be applied, is a simple "junkjet 309" more appropriate since we are under positive control? Just curious.

No, I don't care if you ever report the other aircraft in sight or not - a simple acknowledgement is all I need.

This type of traffic call is called a "merging target procedure" and the only reason we do it is to keep someone from freaking out when an aircraft appears visually, boring in at a combined closing speed of 900 knots.

The traffic call is just to make you aware the other aircraft will be passing by at minimum vertical separation.

 

[jackotron]

Someone stated earlier than "Skypest" as he put it... always uses PD... Whats wrong with that. I think PD saves on radio time more than "Discretion to 7".. instead I use "PD 7000". JMHO

When I worked on the ramp for SkyWest, I caught hell from a captain for giving him the "hang-loose" sign for "chocks-in" (this was a pretty common hand jesture among S.W. pilots and Ramp agents. His reasoning was, "That jesture it's not standard. We both need to know what each is saying so that we don't f- up, lose our jobs, or even worse, kill someone."

I think that same reasoning applies here don't you?

Not that I have a problem with what you said, but I think that it doesn't matter what I think. What's right is right, what is correct is correct, standard phraseology is imparitive.

Now, just because the AIM doesn't say to say "thank you," "So long," "good morning," etc. doesn't mean that that is wrong in the way I see it. Saying "PD" is altering a readback on an instruction, saying "Good morning" is just good for the soul.

 

[Hold West]

When you call us the wrong flight number, don't get pissed just because I don't reply to your call even though I'm pretty certain it's for us. I realize that you have a ton of data blocks starring you in the face but we have to cover our butts as well. Taking someone else's call could be very bad.

Guilty as charged. Sometimes I'm looking at a scope with 20+ aircraft on it, and I'm thinking about two clearances ahead of where my mouth is. My eye is looking at Dogjet 366, but my mouth is trying to say Bluejob 498, and what comes out is a mishmash of the two, or maybe a complete transposition of the two callsigns. Thank you for being alert and catching my occasional error.

Here's a crossing restriction pet peave: Clearance goes something like this: Indebt 1234, pilot's descretion to maintain flight level 240, then cross 30 north of XYZ at 13000. Can't you just clear us for the one altitude restriction instead of adding a layer of complexity to the situation?? With jet fuel over $2 bucks a gallon, I'm not going to start descending to 240 or 13000 until you make me.

First, that clearance doesn't make much sense, in that an altitude crossing restriction is by definition a PD descent.

EXAMPLE-
4. "United Four Seventeen, cross Lakeview V-O-R at six thousand, maintain six thousand."​

NOTE-
4. The pilot is authorized to conduct descent at pilot's discretion, however, must comply with the clearance provision to cross the Lakeview VOR at 6,000 feet.
​

​

More likely you are getting a clearance to descend through a given altitude, then a crossing restriction:
​

​

EXAMPLE-
5. "United Four Seventeen, descend now to Flight Level two seven zero, cross Lakeview V-O-R at or below one zero thousand, descend and maintain six thousand."​

NOTE-
5. The pilot is expected to promptly execute and complete descent to FL 270 upon receipt of the clearance. After reaching FL 270 the pilot is authorized to descend "at pilot's discretion" until reaching Lakeview VOR. The pilot must comply with the clearance provision to cross Lakeview VOR at or below 10,000 feet. After Lakeview VOR the pilot is expected to descend at the suggested rates until reaching 6,000 feet.
​

I issue clearances like that all the time. I issue them all at once to:
​

1. save me time
2. give you the maximum freedom I can within the bounds of my separation responsibility.
​

I don't know where and when you want to start down, or what you have to do to meet a crossing restriction. So I issue the part I need for separation, perhaps "Descend now through FL280" and the part that gives you the freedom to descend further when and how you like: "then at pilot's discretion mantain 7,000".
​

Notice up topic there's one guy complaining that his aircraft doesn't climb or descend very fast; others are complaining that they have to level off at intermediate altitudes. By giving it to you all at once, and making as much as I can at pilot's discretion, I'm trying to give you as much latitude as I can.
​

When you're trying to get me to see the aircraft ahead of us on the visual approach, again don't get pissed when I can't see the little bugger. Depending on time of day, weather condtions, terrrain features, etc. 10 miles vis reported on the ATIS doesn't mean we can really see 10 miles.

Before 9/11, we had a fam program where we could jumpseat with the air carriers, and that's where a lot of us got some real world experience in what you speak of. Now we are having a new generation of controllers check out who've not had that experience, and it shows. I try to explain, and point out that, for example, United has that nice grey top, and it's going to be real hard to see from above, in the haze, from 15 miles away! There's no substitute for experience though. FAA won't put us into CASS, so I don't think we'll ever get that experience back.

 

[Hold West]

Controller gives you a crossing restriction - Ex 'Cross JHAUN at 12000'. It's a slammer and I'm working hard to get down - out of about 15000 the controller now says 'turn 15 degrees right for traffic'. When do I have to be level at 12? Abeam JHAUN? or just when the mood strikes me (normal descent)?

Depends. If I'm planning on reclearing you direct JHAUN once clear of traffic, and there's room for you to get back over JHAUN, I expect you to cross JHAUN at 12,000 as cleared. After all, I just gave you a bit of an s-turn, which gives you more miles to get down, right?

If I'm not planning, or don't have enough room, to get you back over JHAUN, I should amend your clearance. If you don't think you are going to get back over JHAUN, ask for an amended clearance.

Prior to taxi, your clearance is 'cleared as filed'. You get to the end and get a plain vanilla 'cleared for takeoff' with no mention of hdg or where to go. I have been barked at for turning on course, and I have been barked at for flying runway heading. I always ask now, but what are the rules when cleared 'as filed' with no guidance in the takeoff clearance?

AFAIK, with a simple "cleared as filed" and "cleared for takeoff", just proceed on course. You have received a clearance, I'd just go ahead and fly the filed route. I don't know of any reason to do anything else. I don't know why anyone would bark at you for that.

 

[Hold West]

[FONT=&quot]Here's a pet peeve of mine when it comes to controllers. Clearing me to things that aren't on the charts especially when I am IFR. You know, hotels (The Stratosphere in LAS comes to mind), dumps (Mt. Trashmore, Key West), roads (L.A.) and the like. Also, try not to get mad at me if I have no idea what you are talking about when you send me flying at something weird. I'm all for helping you guys out but if I don't know what the heck you are talking about just give me a vector and smile. [/FONT]

I feel your pain, but I'm going to turn it around on you. Please don't sit up there in cruise flight playing with your WhizKid nav system until you find some obscure fix that I've never heard of, then ask to go direct there. Since they've named every obscure point on every STAR, DP and approach in the NAS, there's tons of 'em I've never heard of.

You promise not to play stump the controller, and I promise not to play stump the pilot.

 

[PC800]

Approach controls response was that they couldn't clear me for the visual as long as the reported visibility was less than 3 miles.

That's true, since it's the official observation that's controlling, and that hasn't changed yet, he can't. Only a certified observer (sometimes located in the tower, but often someplace else on the field) can do that. My point was only that it's the offiicial observation that's controlling, not what's on the ATIS.

Years ago, at FNT, I had to tell an air carrier that the visibility was 1/4 mile-- despite the fact that the fog had lifted very quickly and, standing in the tower, I could see him circling at the outer marker six miles away. The official observation had to be taken by the NWS guy across the field, which at that time of the morning was staffed by one guy. I could see him, too-- he was outside launching a weather balloon, and having some trouble doing it.

I'm working approach control in the tower, I can see 10 miles-- but I wasn't the certified observer, so I couldn't change the visibility. The captain and I became deadlocked over our respective CYA positions--I was willing to clear him for the approach, despite the fact that we were officially below minimums, because minimums were his problem, not mine. Of course, he was willing to accept the clearance only if I broadcast an official weather sequence showing visibility above minimums, which I couldn't do, since the official observation hadn't changed.

We stayed in stalemate for about fifteen minutes until the weather guy got his balloon untangled and went back inside, scratched "Vis 10+" on the telewriter, and made us both legal. The captain called me on the phone after landing-- and I must say I was much more understanding of his position on the matter, than he was of mine.

 

[kf4amu]

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182651-1.html

Don Brown is a center controller for ATL, and I've been an avid reader of his columns for a few years now. It's helped me tremendously...especially the excess verbage I've learned by listening to other "seasoned" pilots on the air.

-Will

 

[Hold West]

One annoying thing...whenever my school's students fly DA20-C1s we get mistaken as either the Diamond Twin Star, Katana (thats not a big deal, basically the same), Falcon 20, or even the Diamond Jet.

What are you filing as your aircraft type? The Eclipse is a DV20, if you are filing DA20, that's wrong. I might even bite on that one for a sec, confusing it with the Falcon 20 (FA20).

If it's a radio thing, what are you giving as your aircraft type? Diamond? Diamond Eclipse? DA20-C1 (shudder)? Curious about this. I would call it a Diamond Eclipse (Make/model) I think, but just Eclipse should get the idea across.

 

[Hold West]

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182651-1.html

Don Brown is a center controller for ATL, and I've been an avid reader of his columns for a few years now. It's helped me tremendously...especially the excess verbage I've learned by listening to other "seasoned" pilots on the air.

-Will

Don Brown is The Man - he's my Gordon Baxter.

 

[HS125]

That's true, since it's the official observation that's controlling, and that hasn't changed yet, he can't. Only a certified observer (sometimes located in the tower, but often someplace else on the field) can do that. My point was only that it's the offiicial observation that's controlling, not what's on the ATIS.

Years ago, at FNT, I had to tell an air carrier that the visibility was 1/4 mile-- despite the fact that the fog had lifted very quickly and, standing in the tower, I could see him circling at the outer marker six miles away. The official observation had to be taken by the NWS guy across the field, which at that time of the morning was staffed by one guy. I could see him, too-- he was outside launching a weather balloon, and having some trouble doing it.

I'm working approach control in the tower, I can see 10 miles-- but I wasn't the certified observer, so I couldn't change the visibility. The captain and I became deadlocked over our respective CYA positions--I was willing to clear him for the approach, despite the fact that we were officially below minimums, because minimums were his problem, not mine. Of course, he was willing to accept the clearance only if I broadcast an official weather sequence showing visibility above minimums, which I couldn't do, since the official observation hadn't changed.

We stayed in stalemate for about fifteen minutes until the weather guy got his balloon untangled and went back inside, scratched "Vis 10+" on the telewriter, and made us both legal. The captain called me on the phone after landing-- and I must say I was much more understanding of his position on the matter, than he was of mine.

FNT was one of the airports where I was denied. So that must have been you that I was talking to (but not in the case you laid out above, I'm not that big of a D.H.). Nice to finally meet you.:laugh:

 

[NJA Capt]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Hold, Why does the "turn the slow aircraft" rule only apply when the slow aircraft is non-airline?? When the overtaking aircraft is corporate, ATC turns or delays the corp aircraft instead if the "slow" airliner. Why the double standard?

See example on pg 5 of this thread.

 

[AirBadger]

What are you filing as your aircraft type? The Eclipse is a DV20, if you are filing DA20, that's wrong. I might even bite on that one for a sec, confusing it with the Falcon 20 (FA20).

If it's a radio thing, what are you giving as your aircraft type? Diamond? Diamond Eclipse? DA20-C1 (shudder)? Curious about this. I would call it a Diamond Eclipse (Make/model) I think, but just Eclipse should get the idea across.

I've filed DA20. Definately use DV20 from now on. For the call sign, we just use Diamond. I think using Eclipse would cause more confusion, being too specific since a lot of people still refer to them as Katanas, which is close enough for me.

 

[NJA Capt]

Please don't sit up there in cruise flight playing with your WhizKid nav system until you find some obscure fix that I've never heard of, then ask to go direct there.

How about when the fix is in your own airspace? Many times we file to a fix, then we are read off a full route with radial/dist to radial/distance. No big deal there, but one day I decided to plot that mysterious PBD/PBD compared to the filed intersection. The intersection of the two radials was within 1 degree of heading and less than 1/2 mile from the filed fix. Here's your sign.......

Other times ARTCC says descend to cross 130nm south of XYZ at FLxxx, when there is a perfectly good intersection close to the requested PBD.

 

[PC800]

So that must have been you that I was talking to...

Not unless you're one of those really old and crusty captains -- I left FNT in '78 for a twenty year stint at ORD. Procedures may very well be the same now, though, I think there's still a NWS on the field at FNT.

 

[Vector4fun]

Well, I'm late to this party, but just chock full of observations. First, I can identify with everything Hold West has said!

Pilots who don't listen. Listening is more than just reading back the clearance, it's the guys who change freqs and start transmitting without ever listening to what's going on the frequency. As HW said, if I issue a clearance, I need a read back of same. That 2 second pause between the time I unkey and the recipient answers is NOT a good opportunity for you to ask for direct to ZFDAT or whaerever that dang fix is. Or, just as soon as I tell two guys to stand-by while I coordinate, not 3 seconds will go by before more folks start transmitting. Hello! Good pilots can tell a lot about what's happening by listening to what the controller is telling the other guys, if they just listen up a bit. Yes, I know there's facilities and freqs so busy you have to butt in to be heard, but way too many guys are blocking readbacks when all they had to do was listen for 10 seconds first.

Descents; I know you guys are under constand pressure to save fuel, but there's a reason why I said "Descend and maintain XX", and it often has to do with separation. I almost never say "Pilot's discretion" anymore, because I don't have time for any. Yet I often still get pilots reading back "Roger, discretion to six." You just went from #4 to #6 in line fella. And even when you do read it back correctly, I can't make you #2 because if I tried, you'd be 1500' above glideslope at the LOM. That's right fellas, some of you are getting a 20 mile final instead of 10 because you won't get that hot-rod jet down and slowed in a timely manner, so I'm not screwing up the finals by trying to shoehorn you into a 7 mile gap at 240 kts and a grand high. You're going to the end of the line. There are some Mitzi drivers I know who are good enough, I don't know you.

"With you". I hate it, didn't use to bother me much, now I get Students and Private pilots calling me out of the blue "With you". That's nice, did you want something? A transponder code? Flight following? Anything in particular?


On the flip side,

Runway changes and slam dunks. I try to be conservative here, because of stuff I hear on boards like this, but I work with controllers who use them gleefully; because nobody complains, and some guys will ask for them to get to the airport 30 sec faster. That's right, it doesn't do a damn bit of good for me to tell my peers and trainees "Try not to switch runways on them inside 15 miles" and then have three pilots the next day offer to switch runways at 6 miles to beat the King Air to the ramp. Same for the slam dunks. I just saw an Emb 170 the other night do a dam fine impression of a B727 that I didn't even think was possible in the newer jets. I didn't instigate it, they did it on their own. A non-pilot controller sees that, and some will assume every airliner can do the same.

It used to really annoy me that some pilot's obviously never even looked at a chart or DP when they filed, but then I learned that a lot of you aren't filing yourselves anymore. Still, it's mildly annoying to see a C-750 filed for FL410 on a DP which is clearly marked for aircraft AOB 11,000'...:erm: Stand by while I fix this....

Enough for now, more later.

 

[Vector4fun]

B757s, 767s, and A300s especially flying freight. I know you guys are often light on the way in, but I swear, I've got Caravans and Centurions doing S-turns to try to follow you from 10 miles in. Can't you at least do 160 kts to the freakin marker? I'm getting groundspeeds in the 100-110 kt catagory from you guys on final, right up there with the C-172SPs. :uzi:

"I think we have it in sight."
"I think you're cleared for the visual approach."



Seriously, this has been all in good fun, but there's not near enough communications anymore between pilots and controllers. Between no more FAM flights, and restrictions (now mostly gone) on Tower/Tracon visits, we never talk to each other except on the radio. There really needs to be more give-n-take. So I'm suggesting this:

Buy a controller a beer night.

 

[Kream926]

heres o few Q's that i have

when told to stand by when do some people read it back?

Ident - why do some read it back? i thought the highlight on the scope was good enough.

when at an airport that only has one taxiway leading to the full length how does callling ready in sequence gonna help the controller? all that hes gonna say back is #xxx hold short. i think that is unnessisary congestion and i dont call untill im #1. and callin ready for departure when you can see someone on short final?

then again im not a controller but is my plan B, thinking i should have made it plan A

 

[Fury220]

Yep, bigger'n sh*t, there's Maverick VOR/DME. Well...

My suggestion is you throw exactly what you just told me on a NASA ASRS form and send it in. Do that every time it happens. Enough of that and ASRS will send it on to the FAA, and it should show up in refresher training for us controllers. I highly recommend ASRS, not just when you think you might get dinged for something, but whenever something is FUBAR - it makes a record of the situation and if enough pilots do it, someone will take notice...

Good idea. I hadn't thought of that. I guess if I don't do something about it, I have very little right to complain.


This thread is one of the best I've seen here in a while.

 

[81Horse]

Before 9/11, we had a fam program where we could jumpseat with the air carriers, and that's where a lot of us got some real world experience in what you speak of. Now we are having a new generation of controllers check out who've not had that experience, and it shows.

Yep. It's a dirty shame, too.

 

[A Squared]

heres o few Q's that i have

when told to stand by when do some people read it back?

Because *some* controllers go off on pilots when they *don't* read it back. Doesn't make sense, but it happens. It was mentioned on a thread here recently.

when at an airport that only has one taxiway leading to the full length how does callling ready in sequence gonna help the controller? all that hes gonna say back is #xxx hold short. i think that is unnessisary congestion and i dont call untill im #1. and callin ready for departure when you can see someone on short final?

Because *some* controllers will ignore you till you do call ready, or peevishly ask you if you're ready, if you haven't called ready. This also has been discussed on threads here.