Pet peeves from the ATC folks

[Hold West]

Hold, Why does the "turn the slow aircraft" rule only apply when the slow aircraft is non-airline?? When the overtaking aircraft is corporate, ATC turns or delays the corp aircraft instead if the "slow" airliner. Why the double standard?

See example on pg 5 of this thread.

Puttin' on my grumpy hat here.

I bet every time you go to the store you complain about getting stuck with the slow cashier.

I bet every time you pull on the freeway, there's some clown doing 5 mph under in the left lane.

I bet every time you drive through Mickey D's they screw up your order.

I bet every time you go to take a crap, someone's used all the TP and not replaced the roll.

Baloney. It happens occasionally and pisses you off, so it becomes every time situation X arises, Y happens. Over-generalization. I'm not buying it.

I will give you my personal rule: it's a first-come first-serve system, but, all else being equal, if I have a tie at the airport, or an arrival fix or whatever, and there are no other factors involved, I'll put the airplane with the most people in it on the ground first. Sorry, but those 150 folks have been trapped in a 17-inch wide, 31-inch pitch coach seat for three hours in light to moderate chop with the seat belt sign on, while your boss was in back getting a pedicure at FL450. If I can get them off the plane three minutes sooner I will. You're number 2.

Flame on, I'm made of asbestos.

 

[HS125]

Not unless you're one of those really old and crusty captains -- I left FNT in '78 for a twenty year stint at ORD. Procedures may very well be the same now, though, I think there's still a NWS on the field at FNT.

Guess not, I'm getting old but not that old. I didn't start flying until 1978.

 

[NJA Capt]

Over-generalization

That sums up your response nicely.

I will give you my personal rule: it's a first-come first-serve system,

but...I'll put the airplane with the most people in it on the ground first.

Well.......I think that pretty much makes my case. Thanks.

Sorry, but those 150 folks have been trapped in a 17-inch wide...coach seat for three hours .....while your boss was...at FL450. If I can get them off the plane three minutes sooner I will. You're number 2.

150 pax that voluntarily paid $69 to be in a 17 in wide coach seat.

 

[dhc8fo]

Flame on, I'm made of asbestos.

I like you man!

(I have enjoyed your comments and am getting lots of insight from all of you guys, thanks!)

 

[Hold West]

Well.......I think that pretty much makes my case. Thanks.

Come on dude, don't snip up the quote to make it say what you want. You left out the part that says:

but, all else being equal, if I have a tie at the airport, or an arrival fix or whatever, and there are no other factors involved,

Big difference! If you are ahead by a couple of miles, if you're going to take less time going straight in than the air carrier that has to do downwind-base-final, you're number one. If it's a toss up, all else being equal, sorry, Charlie, report the 757 in sight.

Now, let's address the blow-by issue. There you are in your GV, cruising along at .84. Here comes the 757, at .80. He's grounding at 440, you're grounding at 480.

Let's say I have a sector that's 140 miles long. The two of you are pacing along at 7-8 miles per minute, which means I have you for about 18 minutes. You come over 12 miles behind the 757, and I need to put you out the other side over an arrival fix at the same altitude, therefore I need 6-7 miles separation (5 miles is minimum in enroute). So, you need to make up the 12 miles you are behind, and the additional 6+ in need in front, for a total of 18 miles. The problem is, back in the first sentence, the overtake is 40 knots, or 2/3 of a mile per minute, and in the 18 minutes I have available, you will only make up 12 miles of the difference... or, end up right side-by-side of the 757. I can't have that.

The point is that blow-bys CAN work, but they take a lot of time and airspace. Throw some other things into the scenario, like making it an enroute sector, with a 10 or 15 mile-in-trail restriction, and it's even worse.

Then too, put two or three airplanes ahead of the 757 in my example, and there's no where to go even if I thought the blow-by would work.

I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying that it's a more difficult situation that it appears to be at face value.

Gotta go plug in and talk to some of you guys now, next break I'll share my favorite attempted blow-by story.

 

[Vector4fun]

This is where a nationwide standardization policy would help out. Approach controllers work "their" area, while we are flying into 500 areas. Each controller wants it done the "local way." If you come into the NYC area and slow below 240 kts you get yelled at. Then you go to CLE or IAD and they think people are still flying DC-3s (170 kts???) You enter NYC airspace at +/-2000 AGL. At places like MCO and ATL they vector a downwind at >9000 MSL and give a 20 mile final in VMC.

I understand all of the above, and you have a point. It's the really egregious examples that get me. The guys who come sailing onto a midfield downwind at 10,000' and 300 kts gs, (when they were assigned 3000' 20 miles back), at a measely 1500 fpm descent, and then start chippin for the visual. "We got the field in sight" Yeah, I heard you the first time, and when you get that puppy down to about 4000' and slowed up to about 210 kts, and I know approximately what county you're going to be able to turn base leg in, I'll figure out who you're gonna follow.

The other problem I have is, since we don't exclude many of the GA overflights, I've got them from 6000' to 12,000, and also piston and turboprop arrivals to neighboring facilities descending through parts of my airspace. It helps if I can hustle you down through all that. The longer you're above around 6000', the longer you're a potential conflict with all that traffic not even landing at this airport. You're a conflict with the overs and the departures climbing and crossing. It would be nice to segregate all that traffic, but we can't do that without a lot more airspace.

 

[charter dog]

No, I don't care if you ever report the other aircraft in sight or not - a simple acknowledgement is all I need.

This type of traffic call is called a "merging target procedure" and the only reason we do it is to keep someone from freaking out when an aircraft appears visually, boring in at a combined closing speed of 900 knots.

The traffic call is just to make you aware the other aircraft will be passing by at minimum vertical separation.

Thanks, Hold West. That's the way I treat it. Now, if I could just convince a few others...

Best,

 

[metrodriver]

from pilots: checking in; with you; xyz0001,bla,bla, smooth. I guess it would be smooth if nobody is complaining.
from controllers: omitting the company part of the callsign. That's what gets our attention, not the number. Especialy after a 16hr duty day listening to all kind of foreign accents. MIA anyone?
The DC10 gets a lot of static on the radio's when flying in clouds to the point that no transmission can be heard anymore. Sorry if we missed a few calls

 

[dsee8driver]

I guess I have a few..

Being called "Airtran" or "AMTRAM" I said, Air Transport 801.

Most controllers out there are used to there new sophisticated, state of the art aluminum tubes. We fly old, fly by wire technology. We can't come down fast and slow. You need to pick one or the other. We used to be able to use reversers in flight until pieces started falling off. Not anymore.

LAX and the CIVET 5 is a great way to get you in but when ATC starts with their speed assignements, we ain't making the crossing buds!

BUT all and all, we do have some of the best ATC folks in the world. When we get outside the good ol' USA and stat talking to French, Russian, and South American controllers, you'll understand. Specially the French who love to clear you to some odd interception on their airspace and you spend 5 minuts looking at the spaghetti on the jepp chart to figure out his pronunciation. It can get tough.

 

[iflyjets4food]

Two peeves, both pilot related:

1. Pilots who pull up in line to the one departure runway at any relatively busy airport and call ready in sequence. It is stupid. You are number 5 in a line that is 20 deep. Keep your mouth shut. All you made the controller do is waste radio time telling you to hold short. When you get to be number one and nobody is on short final, they'll clear you for takeoff. If not, maybe then you can inquire. Also applies when you are number 1 at a runway with traffic on short final, and you call ready.

2. "Professional" pilots who fly their rich folks to big events (NCAA Final Four, recently, but still applies to any event) and when it's all over and the big push comes, you call ready to taxi at the FBO, but when ground tells you to taxi, you say "unable" because you are 10 deep in a herd of airplanes. Un-freaking-believeable. Open your eyes. Don't call until you see that you can actually go somewhere when told to. To the controller who took over and made some order, I am grateful.

All in all, this is a great thread. I just think a lot of "professionals" should act as such. To those that already do, THANKS.

 

[Gorilla]

from pilots: checking in; with you; xyz0001,bla,bla, smooth.

I take exception to your, uh, exception.

What this pilot is doing is asking about the rides. Isn't this better than xyz0001,bla,bla, request ride report; or, how are the rides today? The expected response is "It should stay that way"; or, "You can expect light chop over FUBAR"

 

[NJA Capt]

Vector4 and HoldW, Thanks for the input on the your last posts. Thats the kind of info I was looking for. I won't split hairs with a few mach, like .84-.80. But it is a big cut to slow from .90 to .80 (Imagine slowing a CRJ from .75 to .65)

Funny anecdote:
ATC: (in an edgy voice) demands "xxx we need you guys to keep your speed up......say speed."
XXX: (Confused) We are doing .91 ma'am, what do yo need?
ATC: Nevermind

 

[Stealthh21]

With jet fuel over $2 bucks a gallon, I'm not going to start descending to 240 or 13000 until you make me.

Hey can you tell me where to get Jet-A for 2 dollar bucks a gallon?

 

[Stealthh21]

App: "Pudspanker 420 do you have the airport in sight?"
PS420: "Negative, we're in and out"
App: "Very good sir, you're 6 from MYFIX, fly heading 050 maintain 4,000 until established cleared for the ILS 8 Right approach contact the tower at the marker on 123.45"

I am afraid not. Saying "Very good sir..." is congesting the frequency.

 

[threegreen]

Hold West, lately I've been getting vectors off an airway with no reason given. When I ask, ATC either doesn't reply or becomes extremely curt. Wassup with that?

Also, what's the magic word that puts atc in their place (should the above situation occur yet again)? Is it 'Time check'?