Pet peeves from the ATC folks

[NJA Capt]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Hold, Why does the "turn the slow aircraft" rule only apply when the slow aircraft is non-airline?? When the overtaking aircraft is corporate, ATC turns or delays the corp aircraft instead if the "slow" airliner. Why the double standard?

See example on pg 5 of this thread.

 

[AirBadger]

What are you filing as your aircraft type? The Eclipse is a DV20, if you are filing DA20, that's wrong. I might even bite on that one for a sec, confusing it with the Falcon 20 (FA20).

If it's a radio thing, what are you giving as your aircraft type? Diamond? Diamond Eclipse? DA20-C1 (shudder)? Curious about this. I would call it a Diamond Eclipse (Make/model) I think, but just Eclipse should get the idea across.

I've filed DA20. Definately use DV20 from now on. For the call sign, we just use Diamond. I think using Eclipse would cause more confusion, being too specific since a lot of people still refer to them as Katanas, which is close enough for me.

 

[NJA Capt]

Please don't sit up there in cruise flight playing with your WhizKid nav system until you find some obscure fix that I've never heard of, then ask to go direct there.

How about when the fix is in your own airspace? Many times we file to a fix, then we are read off a full route with radial/dist to radial/distance. No big deal there, but one day I decided to plot that mysterious PBD/PBD compared to the filed intersection. The intersection of the two radials was within 1 degree of heading and less than 1/2 mile from the filed fix. Here's your sign.......

Other times ARTCC says descend to cross 130nm south of XYZ at FLxxx, when there is a perfectly good intersection close to the requested PBD.

 

[PC800]

So that must have been you that I was talking to...

Not unless you're one of those really old and crusty captains -- I left FNT in '78 for a twenty year stint at ORD. Procedures may very well be the same now, though, I think there's still a NWS on the field at FNT.

 

[Vector4fun]

Well, I'm late to this party, but just chock full of observations. First, I can identify with everything Hold West has said!

Pilots who don't listen. Listening is more than just reading back the clearance, it's the guys who change freqs and start transmitting without ever listening to what's going on the frequency. As HW said, if I issue a clearance, I need a read back of same. That 2 second pause between the time I unkey and the recipient answers is NOT a good opportunity for you to ask for direct to ZFDAT or whaerever that dang fix is. Or, just as soon as I tell two guys to stand-by while I coordinate, not 3 seconds will go by before more folks start transmitting. Hello! Good pilots can tell a lot about what's happening by listening to what the controller is telling the other guys, if they just listen up a bit. Yes, I know there's facilities and freqs so busy you have to butt in to be heard, but way too many guys are blocking readbacks when all they had to do was listen for 10 seconds first.

Descents; I know you guys are under constand pressure to save fuel, but there's a reason why I said "Descend and maintain XX", and it often has to do with separation. I almost never say "Pilot's discretion" anymore, because I don't have time for any. Yet I often still get pilots reading back "Roger, discretion to six." You just went from #4 to #6 in line fella. And even when you do read it back correctly, I can't make you #2 because if I tried, you'd be 1500' above glideslope at the LOM. That's right fellas, some of you are getting a 20 mile final instead of 10 because you won't get that hot-rod jet down and slowed in a timely manner, so I'm not screwing up the finals by trying to shoehorn you into a 7 mile gap at 240 kts and a grand high. You're going to the end of the line. There are some Mitzi drivers I know who are good enough, I don't know you.

"With you". I hate it, didn't use to bother me much, now I get Students and Private pilots calling me out of the blue "With you". That's nice, did you want something? A transponder code? Flight following? Anything in particular?


On the flip side,

Runway changes and slam dunks. I try to be conservative here, because of stuff I hear on boards like this, but I work with controllers who use them gleefully; because nobody complains, and some guys will ask for them to get to the airport 30 sec faster. That's right, it doesn't do a damn bit of good for me to tell my peers and trainees "Try not to switch runways on them inside 15 miles" and then have three pilots the next day offer to switch runways at 6 miles to beat the King Air to the ramp. Same for the slam dunks. I just saw an Emb 170 the other night do a dam fine impression of a B727 that I didn't even think was possible in the newer jets. I didn't instigate it, they did it on their own. A non-pilot controller sees that, and some will assume every airliner can do the same.

It used to really annoy me that some pilot's obviously never even looked at a chart or DP when they filed, but then I learned that a lot of you aren't filing yourselves anymore. Still, it's mildly annoying to see a C-750 filed for FL410 on a DP which is clearly marked for aircraft AOB 11,000'...:erm: Stand by while I fix this....

Enough for now, more later.

 

[Vector4fun]

B757s, 767s, and A300s especially flying freight. I know you guys are often light on the way in, but I swear, I've got Caravans and Centurions doing S-turns to try to follow you from 10 miles in. Can't you at least do 160 kts to the freakin marker? I'm getting groundspeeds in the 100-110 kt catagory from you guys on final, right up there with the C-172SPs. :uzi:

"I think we have it in sight."
"I think you're cleared for the visual approach."



Seriously, this has been all in good fun, but there's not near enough communications anymore between pilots and controllers. Between no more FAM flights, and restrictions (now mostly gone) on Tower/Tracon visits, we never talk to each other except on the radio. There really needs to be more give-n-take. So I'm suggesting this:

Buy a controller a beer night.

 

[Kream926]

heres o few Q's that i have

when told to stand by when do some people read it back?

Ident - why do some read it back? i thought the highlight on the scope was good enough.

when at an airport that only has one taxiway leading to the full length how does callling ready in sequence gonna help the controller? all that hes gonna say back is #xxx hold short. i think that is unnessisary congestion and i dont call untill im #1. and callin ready for departure when you can see someone on short final?

then again im not a controller but is my plan B, thinking i should have made it plan A

 

[Fury220]

Yep, bigger'n sh*t, there's Maverick VOR/DME. Well...

My suggestion is you throw exactly what you just told me on a NASA ASRS form and send it in. Do that every time it happens. Enough of that and ASRS will send it on to the FAA, and it should show up in refresher training for us controllers. I highly recommend ASRS, not just when you think you might get dinged for something, but whenever something is FUBAR - it makes a record of the situation and if enough pilots do it, someone will take notice...

Good idea. I hadn't thought of that. I guess if I don't do something about it, I have very little right to complain.


This thread is one of the best I've seen here in a while.

 

[81Horse]

Before 9/11, we had a fam program where we could jumpseat with the air carriers, and that's where a lot of us got some real world experience in what you speak of. Now we are having a new generation of controllers check out who've not had that experience, and it shows.

Yep. It's a dirty shame, too.

 

[A Squared]

heres o few Q's that i have

when told to stand by when do some people read it back?

Because *some* controllers go off on pilots when they *don't* read it back. Doesn't make sense, but it happens. It was mentioned on a thread here recently.

when at an airport that only has one taxiway leading to the full length how does callling ready in sequence gonna help the controller? all that hes gonna say back is #xxx hold short. i think that is unnessisary congestion and i dont call untill im #1. and callin ready for departure when you can see someone on short final?

Because *some* controllers will ignore you till you do call ready, or peevishly ask you if you're ready, if you haven't called ready. This also has been discussed on threads here.

 

[Lostdog65]

Runway changes and slam dunks. I try to be conservative here, because of stuff I hear on boards like this, but I work with controllers who use them gleefully; because nobody complains, and some guys will ask for them to get to the airport 30 sec faster. That's right, it doesn't do a dang bit of good for me to tell my peers and trainees "Try not to switch runways on them inside 15 miles" and then have three pilots the next day offer to switch runways at 6 miles to beat the King Air to the ramp. Same for the slam dunks. I just saw an Emb 170 the other night do a dam fine impression of a B727 that I didn't even think was possible in the newer jets. I didn't instigate it, they did it on their own. A non-pilot controller sees that, and some will assume every airliner can do the same.

My complaint about the slam dunk usually comes when their's a regional coming into the airport and the controller is "doing me a favor" by getting me in. Happens a lot at Chico coming from the East and Redding coming from the North and West (read mountains). I know there are MVA's and such but why does one controller insist on 9k 20DME from RDD and another will let me go to 7300 at 20DME? I ask...no one knows. Going from 9000 to 5500 in 3 miles is a lot harder on the old piston twin than going from 7300 to 5500 in 3 miles. Sometimes...sometimes...if the stars align and the controller is in a good mood and his wife didn't yell at him that morning...I can get 6000 at 20DME...oh...I live for those days!!

In my younger days, I'd try to beat feet in, try to shave that 3 minutes off, try to beat the KA with my 340. Ain't worth it boys. You shave 3 minutes...guaranteed you're gonna lose that 3 minutes going home. Guarant-d*amn-teed. If it means that much to you to beat the RJ into SMF or OAK...knock yourself out. I'm getting paid by the hour!

Eric

 

[Vector4fun]

Hold, Why does the "turn the slow aircraft" rule only apply when the slow aircraft is non-airline?? When the overtaking aircraft is corporate, ATC turns or delays the corp aircraft instead if the "slow" airliner. Why the double standard?

NJA, I can't give you an honest answer to your question re a C750. At my place, I don't work with any controller who wouldn't take the opportunity to put a C750 in front of a B737. That's a no-brainer. Now, a C500, ugh, I've worked Cheyennes and Super King Airs that would eat you alive in the climb....

 

[Vector4fun]

How about when the fix is in your own airspace? Many times we file to a fix, then we are read off a full route with radial/dist to radial/distance. No big deal there, but one day I decided to plot that mysterious PBD/PBD compared to the filed intersection. The intersection of the two radials was within 1 degree of heading and less than 1/2 mile from the filed fix. Here's your sign.......

NJA, we had that exact same scenario here for a few years until we got the DPs all published and sorted out. (A sorry tale of Govt inaction if there ever was one...) We were told we had to read the Prefferential Departure Route, (PDR) exactly as it was printed on the strip. Didn't matter if there was a fix 3 miles away on the same radial that would have worked as well. The strips said XXX 088/052 and that's what we had to read. Believe me, we liked it no more than the pilots.

 

[F16fixer]

While we are at it, I was wondering if anyone else ever has problems dealing with Colombia FSS in MO. These F#cking idiots are the bottom of the barrel! The one lady sounds like she is on oxygen and can hardly breathe. (If you need real time help with a T-storm or any other weather she will gladly read the TAF to you!) The other two guys that I normally talk to can't figure out how to bring up a canned flight plan, so they make me file a new one! It is a crap shoot when you call that place. If you guys have any kids that work at McDonald's and that's not working out for them, tell them to apply to the Missouri flight service station.

 

[NJA Capt]

That's right fellas, some of you are getting a 20 mile final instead of 10 because you won't get that hot-rod jet down and slowed in a timely manner, so I'm not screwing up the finals by trying to shoehorn you into a 7 mile gap at 240 kts and a grand high. You're going to the end of the line.

This is where a nationwide standardization policy would help out. Approach controllers work "their" area, while we are flying into 500 areas. Each controller wants it done the "local way." If you come into the NYC area and slow below 240 kts you get yelled at. Then you go to CLE or IAD and they think people are still flying DC-3s (170 kts???) You enter NYC airspace at +/-2000 AGL. At places like MCO and ATL they vector a downwind at >9000 MSL and give a 20 mile final in VMC.

I am always (ok almost always) glad to help out. I can fly slow and I can come down fast. BUT.....We can't slow down while coming down fast (>2000fpm), the laws of physics won't allow it.

Guys in FTW DFW/DAL.....Thanks for the good job. The only controllers in the US with passing lanes on the arrivals.

 

[Hold West]

Hold, Why does the "turn the slow aircraft" rule only apply when the slow aircraft is non-airline?? When the overtaking aircraft is corporate, ATC turns or delays the corp aircraft instead if the "slow" airliner. Why the double standard?

See example on pg 5 of this thread.

Puttin' on my grumpy hat here.

I bet every time you go to the store you complain about getting stuck with the slow cashier.

I bet every time you pull on the freeway, there's some clown doing 5 mph under in the left lane.

I bet every time you drive through Mickey D's they screw up your order.

I bet every time you go to take a crap, someone's used all the TP and not replaced the roll.

Baloney. It happens occasionally and pisses you off, so it becomes every time situation X arises, Y happens. Over-generalization. I'm not buying it.

I will give you my personal rule: it's a first-come first-serve system, but, all else being equal, if I have a tie at the airport, or an arrival fix or whatever, and there are no other factors involved, I'll put the airplane with the most people in it on the ground first. Sorry, but those 150 folks have been trapped in a 17-inch wide, 31-inch pitch coach seat for three hours in light to moderate chop with the seat belt sign on, while your boss was in back getting a pedicure at FL450. If I can get them off the plane three minutes sooner I will. You're number 2.

Flame on, I'm made of asbestos.

 

[HS125]

Not unless you're one of those really old and crusty captains -- I left FNT in '78 for a twenty year stint at ORD. Procedures may very well be the same now, though, I think there's still a NWS on the field at FNT.

Guess not, I'm getting old but not that old. I didn't start flying until 1978.

 

[NJA Capt]

Over-generalization

That sums up your response nicely.

I will give you my personal rule: it's a first-come first-serve system,

but...I'll put the airplane with the most people in it on the ground first.

Well.......I think that pretty much makes my case. Thanks.

Sorry, but those 150 folks have been trapped in a 17-inch wide...coach seat for three hours .....while your boss was...at FL450. If I can get them off the plane three minutes sooner I will. You're number 2.

150 pax that voluntarily paid $69 to be in a 17 in wide coach seat.

 

[dhc8fo]

Flame on, I'm made of asbestos.

I like you man!

(I have enjoyed your comments and am getting lots of insight from all of you guys, thanks!)

 

[Hold West]

Well.......I think that pretty much makes my case. Thanks.

Come on dude, don't snip up the quote to make it say what you want. You left out the part that says:

but, all else being equal, if I have a tie at the airport, or an arrival fix or whatever, and there are no other factors involved,

Big difference! If you are ahead by a couple of miles, if you're going to take less time going straight in than the air carrier that has to do downwind-base-final, you're number one. If it's a toss up, all else being equal, sorry, Charlie, report the 757 in sight.

Now, let's address the blow-by issue. There you are in your GV, cruising along at .84. Here comes the 757, at .80. He's grounding at 440, you're grounding at 480.

Let's say I have a sector that's 140 miles long. The two of you are pacing along at 7-8 miles per minute, which means I have you for about 18 minutes. You come over 12 miles behind the 757, and I need to put you out the other side over an arrival fix at the same altitude, therefore I need 6-7 miles separation (5 miles is minimum in enroute). So, you need to make up the 12 miles you are behind, and the additional 6+ in need in front, for a total of 18 miles. The problem is, back in the first sentence, the overtake is 40 knots, or 2/3 of a mile per minute, and in the 18 minutes I have available, you will only make up 12 miles of the difference... or, end up right side-by-side of the 757. I can't have that.

The point is that blow-bys CAN work, but they take a lot of time and airspace. Throw some other things into the scenario, like making it an enroute sector, with a 10 or 15 mile-in-trail restriction, and it's even worse.

Then too, put two or three airplanes ahead of the 757 in my example, and there's no where to go even if I thought the blow-by would work.

I'm not saying it can't happen, I'm just saying that it's a more difficult situation that it appears to be at face value.

Gotta go plug in and talk to some of you guys now, next break I'll share my favorite attempted blow-by story.

 

[Vector4fun]

This is where a nationwide standardization policy would help out. Approach controllers work "their" area, while we are flying into 500 areas. Each controller wants it done the "local way." If you come into the NYC area and slow below 240 kts you get yelled at. Then you go to CLE or IAD and they think people are still flying DC-3s (170 kts???) You enter NYC airspace at +/-2000 AGL. At places like MCO and ATL they vector a downwind at >9000 MSL and give a 20 mile final in VMC.

I understand all of the above, and you have a point. It's the really egregious examples that get me. The guys who come sailing onto a midfield downwind at 10,000' and 300 kts gs, (when they were assigned 3000' 20 miles back), at a measely 1500 fpm descent, and then start chippin for the visual. "We got the field in sight" Yeah, I heard you the first time, and when you get that puppy down to about 4000' and slowed up to about 210 kts, and I know approximately what county you're going to be able to turn base leg in, I'll figure out who you're gonna follow.

The other problem I have is, since we don't exclude many of the GA overflights, I've got them from 6000' to 12,000, and also piston and turboprop arrivals to neighboring facilities descending through parts of my airspace. It helps if I can hustle you down through all that. The longer you're above around 6000', the longer you're a potential conflict with all that traffic not even landing at this airport. You're a conflict with the overs and the departures climbing and crossing. It would be nice to segregate all that traffic, but we can't do that without a lot more airspace.

 

[charter dog]

No, I don't care if you ever report the other aircraft in sight or not - a simple acknowledgement is all I need.

This type of traffic call is called a "merging target procedure" and the only reason we do it is to keep someone from freaking out when an aircraft appears visually, boring in at a combined closing speed of 900 knots.

The traffic call is just to make you aware the other aircraft will be passing by at minimum vertical separation.

Thanks, Hold West. That's the way I treat it. Now, if I could just convince a few others...

Best,

 

[metrodriver]

from pilots: checking in; with you; xyz0001,bla,bla, smooth. I guess it would be smooth if nobody is complaining.
from controllers: omitting the company part of the callsign. That's what gets our attention, not the number. Especialy after a 16hr duty day listening to all kind of foreign accents. MIA anyone?
The DC10 gets a lot of static on the radio's when flying in clouds to the point that no transmission can be heard anymore. Sorry if we missed a few calls

 

[dsee8driver]

I guess I have a few..

Being called "Airtran" or "AMTRAM" I said, Air Transport 801.

Most controllers out there are used to there new sophisticated, state of the art aluminum tubes. We fly old, fly by wire technology. We can't come down fast and slow. You need to pick one or the other. We used to be able to use reversers in flight until pieces started falling off. Not anymore.

LAX and the CIVET 5 is a great way to get you in but when ATC starts with their speed assignements, we ain't making the crossing buds!

BUT all and all, we do have some of the best ATC folks in the world. When we get outside the good ol' USA and stat talking to French, Russian, and South American controllers, you'll understand. Specially the French who love to clear you to some odd interception on their airspace and you spend 5 minuts looking at the spaghetti on the jepp chart to figure out his pronunciation. It can get tough.

 

[iflyjets4food]

Two peeves, both pilot related:

1. Pilots who pull up in line to the one departure runway at any relatively busy airport and call ready in sequence. It is stupid. You are number 5 in a line that is 20 deep. Keep your mouth shut. All you made the controller do is waste radio time telling you to hold short. When you get to be number one and nobody is on short final, they'll clear you for takeoff. If not, maybe then you can inquire. Also applies when you are number 1 at a runway with traffic on short final, and you call ready.

2. "Professional" pilots who fly their rich folks to big events (NCAA Final Four, recently, but still applies to any event) and when it's all over and the big push comes, you call ready to taxi at the FBO, but when ground tells you to taxi, you say "unable" because you are 10 deep in a herd of airplanes. Un-freaking-believeable. Open your eyes. Don't call until you see that you can actually go somewhere when told to. To the controller who took over and made some order, I am grateful.

All in all, this is a great thread. I just think a lot of "professionals" should act as such. To those that already do, THANKS.

 

[Gorilla]

from pilots: checking in; with you; xyz0001,bla,bla, smooth.

I take exception to your, uh, exception.

What this pilot is doing is asking about the rides. Isn't this better than xyz0001,bla,bla, request ride report; or, how are the rides today? The expected response is "It should stay that way"; or, "You can expect light chop over FUBAR"

 

[NJA Capt]

Vector4 and HoldW, Thanks for the input on the your last posts. Thats the kind of info I was looking for. I won't split hairs with a few mach, like .84-.80. But it is a big cut to slow from .90 to .80 (Imagine slowing a CRJ from .75 to .65)

Funny anecdote:
ATC: (in an edgy voice) demands "xxx we need you guys to keep your speed up......say speed."
XXX: (Confused) We are doing .91 ma'am, what do yo need?
ATC: Nevermind

 

[Stealthh21]

With jet fuel over $2 bucks a gallon, I'm not going to start descending to 240 or 13000 until you make me.

Hey can you tell me where to get Jet-A for 2 dollar bucks a gallon?

 

[Stealthh21]

App: "Pudspanker 420 do you have the airport in sight?"
PS420: "Negative, we're in and out"
App: "Very good sir, you're 6 from MYFIX, fly heading 050 maintain 4,000 until established cleared for the ILS 8 Right approach contact the tower at the marker on 123.45"

I am afraid not. Saying "Very good sir..." is congesting the frequency.

 

[threegreen]

Hold West, lately I've been getting vectors off an airway with no reason given. When I ask, ATC either doesn't reply or becomes extremely curt. Wassup with that?

Also, what's the magic word that puts atc in their place (should the above situation occur yet again)? Is it 'Time check'?