Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
When I was very junior, a wise old captain gave me some advice on how to keep my money for retirement. "If two or more pilots are involved in an investment deal and you are one of them, run the other way."
 
General Lee said:
I don't want a 62 year old fireman carrying me out of a burning house. Nope.

No kidding ??? Really??? Soooooo, let me see if I've got this right....you are in a Holiday Inn, in a burning 3rd floor room. No way out of the room because it's surrounded by fire.

Fire is now lapping at the walls....beams are starting to fall and you are being overcome by smoke inhalation....can't even stand up anymomre as the smoke inhalation is so overwhelming...and suddenly...a Fireman comes through the window wearing his breathing apparatus and announces that he is there to carry you out to safety.

You look at him and ask, "If you-<cough, cough>- don't mind...<hack...cough>...could I ask...<cough-cough>...your age"...<hack....cough>

His response...."I'm 63, and we've got to get out of here quick because this place is gonna fall apart in a few moments"

And you at this point respond with.....?

Uh-huh....I thought so...

Tejas
 
250scp said:
Undaunted Flyer,

I'm a Desert Storm, Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) and Operation Iraqi Freedom vet...and a furloughed pilot.....isn't it time for me to get back on campus so I can start enjoying a 20 year airline career?

If thats the litmus test...then write a letter to your CEO, and use the exact words you have written above. Tell us what his response is.

Tejas
 
flopgut said:
I have looked more closely at the NC and your not right at all. Those initials you listed were just functionaries. NC policy was shaped by TS and RM, both former PE with 20+ years. I thought I was right, but I had to check into it.
Ummm floppy, you commented about he "current" NC and I gave you the current NC’s initials and hire dates. Obviously this wrecked your last saga so now you have mentioned only 2/3 of the PAST committee. I didn’t realize we were talking about the past, especially when you made reference about the "current" NC. But as to your grasping reply, you left out BK from your example. That lowers the average seniority to around 14.5 years. Far less than the 20 years you have been whining about. I stand by my other reply as to the makeup of the current NC. Either way it ruins your "20 year" comment
flopgut said:
Do you even read anything the union puts out? Did you not listen to the P2P calls at all? I'm pretty sure you didn't, you must be too busy.

I read about as much as I could tolerate from the old ME and NC. I had my mind made up for a no vote regardless of what they put out because of the trust and integrity factor. What P2P calls? They ended late last summer when those guys couldn’t handle the heat of the questions. I did listen to them and that became a circus of denial and tap dancing around the issues. They were in effect a waste of time.

flopgut said:
So you doubt my advice about the lump sum? You don't even really need it, huh? Just extra, eh?
Yes. No. Yes.
flopgut said:
That would surprise me, but we do have a few guys like that.
Yes we do. In fact we have quite a few more than you may realize.


flopgut said:
They might fly OK, but usually don't know pigpoop from apple butter when it comes to union stuff.
Well, it seems I have a better grasp on our negotiators but other than that I really don’t see your analogy here
flopgut said:
So hey, you must be extra wealthy! UAL & USAir and perhaps soon DAL & NWA lose their retirements but your not too sure ole flopgut isn't lying to you. Far better to hang around and make sure a junior creep like me gets not so much as one decent pairing! It would just kill you to see anyone do well or get something that could be yours, even if you don't really want/need it.
What are you babbling about? You sound like spoiled little brat trying to make arguments like the ones above. They make no sense whatsoever and only make your position against the change look more ludicrous.
Flop, it is not about money for some, it is about money for others. You can’t have a homogenized opinion on this subject and try and wave a magic wand and have it apply to all points of view. The only reason I chimed in with you is I got sick of listening to your diatribe that all the ills of the industry are because of the senior people. I tried to point that out to you here with the NC but you bastardized and twisted the reply. You also don’t accept that the junior people at CAL didn’t carry the vote at CAL. Does that not in itself blow your theory away?
At least I got you to stop pointing fingers in the wrong direction. I will take that as a win.

flopgut said:
Now pay attention: if you lose that lump sum I don't want to hear you gripe about it.
Now pay attention Flop, I am not worried about my lump sum. Further, you look like a fool trying to bolster you argument with this threat of losing the lump sum,. Please come up with some better material will you? The carrot and stick approach is not working and is very transparent.

flopgut said:
Additionally, I don't want to have to negotiate anything special for those of you who might lose it and then want all of us sacrifice and make a special effort to raise you up.
I don’t recall this being my position or desire.
flopgut said:
You can do something smart and take care of yourself now, or you can be less than smart and put yourself at risk. I carefully make that point to make this point: It is not unlike the age 60 rule. There are things we all need to be doing throughout our careers to get ourselves ready to retire
I already have Flop. This doesn’t apply to me. It also doesn’t apply to my personal thoughts and position on age 60. But again I thank you for not carping about senior pilots ruining the industry.
flopgut said:
If most of you age change folks had actually done that, maybe the rest of us would not have to put our career progressions on hold to raise each of you up.
Has it ever occurred to you that you will have longer to work under a hopefully improving pay and benefits packages for the future? Probably not.
flopgut said:
Senior CAL pilots need to be ready to act on that lump sum if it becomes in doubt. I DO NOT want to have to be told you need to work to 70 because you lost your lump sum!
No one is asking you to fly to 70. You are free to bail at anytime. When did I lose that lump sum? How many times do I have to tell you that I am not counting on it? You shouldn’t either.

flopgut said:
I DO NOT want to be called a scab, or be called greedy,
I said you "sound" like a scab. If you don’t want to "sound" like one don’t talk like an opportunist. You come across as an opportunist with your theories and goals. Really it is pretty simple. If you don’t like it perhaps you should examine your words and comments.
As far as greed, when you sift away all your arguments they are all based on greed. My only reason for support of the extension is based on the need of many pilots after the events and decimation of their retirements. It is also a discriminatory practice and it always has been. Need vs. greed.
flopgut said:
or have my respect for the early years of ALPA questioned
LMAO!!!!! you have no respect for your senior ALPA peers blaming them for all of your problems and the industries woes but you want respect about your views of ALPA? If anything, we need the old school back instead of the guys like you and Belly with your warped sense of entitlement attitudes.
flopgut said:
and I especially DO NOT want to have to put my career on hold again because you senior guys can't make smart decisions. Like Ron White says: "you can't fix stupid".

Who was here first? Listen to Ron (whoever he is) sounds like he has some good advice for you.
flopgut said:
I have spent the better part of a decade working within rank. Trying to be predictable and helpful and contribute.
You’re telling me with a 7% growth rate and 10 years seniority you can’t upgrade Flop? I guess those like myself with between 20 & 30 years don’t earn or deserve anything then. Is this what you are saying?
flopgut said:
Now I look ahead at quite possibly 5 years of stagnation with frustration and you tell me "I have a lot of nerve". I'll handle it if I have to, I'll be professional about it, one of us has to be.
Thank you. If you are not professional and come across in the cockpit like you do on here, it sounds like you’ll have some problems. I’ll take a wild guess and state that you don’t come across anything like you do on here on property and to your peers. If so, I encourage you to voice your opinions to senior guys while at work. Go ahead, see what the results might be.
flopgut said:
No more scab talk. Remember, I want to support the union's position on the issue.
Only because it fits with your current mantra. If you don’t want to sound like a scab quit the opportunism like attitude and argue some real points. * What if our union chnages its position. Are you still going to support it then?
*Note to slow witted people like Crosscut. See how I say "sound" it is different than actually saying he "is" a scab.
flopgut said:
You want to craft an additional five years of super seniority for yourself outside the collective bargaining agreement. Who is acting like a scab?
It has nothing to do with seniority outside of a cba. It is about age discrimination plain and simple. I notice you still fail to address my personal situation of not planning on flying past 55 and the issues I feel need to change. Medicare, SS, PBGC age and payment limits. Usually opportunists just think about themselves, like you have carped about. See what I mean? I am thinking baout others, not myself. You only seem to reference your personal issues.
flopgut said:
It looks like CAL may be the only airline left with an A plan. That makes me nervous. SuperCaptain Boeingman is representative of a large number of our captains that are nearing (or could) retirement. They are more worried that I might fly captain one day too early!
That is such complete bullcrap Mr WhineyIhatebeingandamtogoodtobeaF/OFlopgut. Give it a rest will you? Why do you continue harping about the A plan? What does that have to do with the supposed argument about safety or seniority progresion? It also contradicts your me me me me I have to be a Captain mantra.
flopgut said:
So they'll hang around and INSIST the remainder of the list stand ready to sacrifice anything to protect their A plan. We have done a lot, I don't want to do anything more. If they can't take care of themselves, then at some point we have to cut them loose! I wish we could have said that on age 60!
See above comment. The more you argue the more grasping you sound. At least with Belly he keeps it pure and simple just greed, arrogance and immaturity. "
 
Last edited:
Bringupthebird said:
Hmm? Age 60 is supposedly all about safety but no one wants tougher medical standards across the board. Even those on Capitol Hill can see through that hypocrisy.

Well....what does a over 60 pilot do right now for a 1st class? Why change anything where thats concerned. Let's be honest here....there is no difference in a Flight physical for a corporate, private, beginining CFI, or airline pilot. Think that the AOPA ( among others) won't get involved if the FAA decides ( out of spite) to make thinkgs harder for over age 60 physicals?

How about waivers? How many more pilots will hire attorneys to make sure their waivers stay intact? FAA will no doubt lose a bunch of cases at the NTSB level on that one.

Shameless plug here....Mark McDermott is the absolute best Aviation Law attorney out there (Former FAA atty-knows all their dirty tricks).

I have a good friend that retired at age 60 from an major airline. Flew a G-V afterwards and held a 1st class. Flew George and Barbara Bush to Europe and back when he was 63....with a 65 yr old co-pilot.

BTW....there was no difference in the 1st class physical he took as a airline pilot or as a corporate pilot.

Tejas
 
bringupthebird said:
Boeingman, Flop could have upgraded already (eligible anyhow) but has chosen not to. Don't shed a tear for the lazy.
I noticed that. It must be part of this new entitlement society we live in today. Poor Mr. WhineyFOFlopgut has to jerk gear by his choice. I am positive he can upgrade already but it just doesn’t suit him.

crosscut said:
The other master of "free-verse" is, too, in denial. This God's gift calls everyone with a difference of opinion a "scab" & "johny jet jock" while his 15-page epic's are as much of a "diatribe" & as much "condescending" as he claims others to be.

This is the second time you have chimed in with an asinine reply based on my reply to a sarcastic comment made about and to me. I guess if you are considering me a gods gift, I would consider you and your ilk gods penance.
Now moving on, no idiot, I don’t call everyone a scab. I referred to Flop gut as "sounding" like a scab. The Johnny Jet Jock was a reply to a continued barrage of accusations that us "old geezers" need to be saved continuously from such herculean efforts by pilots like Belly. And you as well I suppose.

For those with a mental capacity and ability to think above the level of an ant, can easily see this. I am not really sorry that your dim witted mind can not come up a reasoned difference.

crosscut said:
Those on furlough can't afford to buy a scale model of L-39 while he claims to joy ride his real one.

Wouldn’t matter even if I didn't work for the airline sonny. The L39 wasn’t purchased on my airline salary. Further, when I bought it, it was no more expensive than a well equipped single engine aircraft. Are you going to cry and moan that no one should be able to own a toy because your own career decisions or the industry went down the toilet? Life isn't fair. The sooner you realize that the things like jealousy and envy become easier to deal with.

Now if you want a scale model of my airplane, I can order one for you as I had one made and it is in my office right now. You’re on furlough? I’m looking for someone who will do a good wax job on her. Interested? I’ll pay you a little above minium wage, and if you do a real good job, you can have the model? Deal?

Your whining mocks others on furlough who do not bemoan others for their success. I was furloughed once and it didn't bother me that others worked to pull themselves out of their financial abyss. What is your excuse?

crosscut said:
Another fine example of, "F*** you, I got mine!"

And your example is "I am a whiner and going to complain about anyone more successful that I am". Sort of like the principles of communism. I make no apologies for my success outside of the airline. If you don’t like that principle I suggest then your above statement apply’s nicely from me to you personally.

So why all the bitterness crosscut? Does you name signify a mistake made during your circumcision at birth?

bigbeerbelly said:
Alright boringman ... I'll write back.
I am thrilled.

bigbeerbelly said:
The fact is a disproportionate number of general aviation old farts are crashing airplanes and killing people. No doubt SOME of these accidents have been attributed to the diminished mental capacity associated with aging. I'm willing to bet there are similar rates of dementia and mental degradation occurring in both populations (general aviation and airline pilot). After talking to numerous other airline pilots, I'm confident ONE of the major reasons old geezer airline pilots don't crash nearly as often as their general aviation brethren is due to timely safety intervention by their first officers.

To deny that: vision deteriorates with age, reflexes slow, mental acuity slows, memory is impaired, hearing declines, etc... is foolish. Age 60 is an appropriate accommodation to mandate retirement in the interest of safety.

You really should stop your arguments based on arrogance. Your attitude of iamtogoodtobeafirstofficerasiamagiftfromgodtoaviationandnooneisbetteratflyingariplanesthaniam
because they make you look ignorant and immature. Have you discussed these numerous incidents with your union or professional standards?

That being said, what you are saying has a shred of validity and is obvious that mental and physical abilities degrade over time. However my question to you is at what point does that actually affect safety? At what point other than an arbitrary age based on nothing but a handshake in the fifties supports your theory and ass umptions? Your unscientific perceived herculean efforts that must save every UPS flight you are on doesn’t really cut it, and like flopgut, makes you look like you are grasping.

The study comparing GA pilots to pt. 121 pilots as an argument is absurd and you know it. If you believe that study you must really have low expectations and abilities with the overall 121 environment or the one in which you operate. How many of those accidents were VFR CFIT at night? VFR? Single pilots ops? Poor training environment or lack of established recurrancy? Medical standards or lack of actual certification? Maintenance related?

Now as for your continued physical descriptions of "old geezers". I am not sure what you are talking about. Maybe all the years of night flying at UPS produces these types you fly with so you are in essence looking at your future. But perhaps you need to pick some better partners at the steam baths you frequent. The real airline guys you mock and childishly describe are few and far between.

bigbeerbelly said:
Now go die your hair and soak your dentures pops!

Hair looks good partly grey. I also have all my original teeth.
 
Last edited:
Lear70 said:
There are several 55+ age pilots who scare the ratsh*t out of me. They self-certify and the FAA signs off on them

OK....so tell us if you will....what did you do about those pilots that scared "the ratsh*t out of " you?

Did you report them to your Professional Standards? Or your Chief Pilot? Or the VP of Flight Ops? your company's POI? The FAA?

If you know this, and something happens...with one of those age 55+ pilots that have scared the ratsh*t out of you...and you know you could've stopped it from happening....how would you feel about that?

Don't be like Moussaoui....you know its out there...you need to make some calls today....NOW....QUICKLY...DO IT !!!!

Tejas
 
In a completely unrelated topic, Holy K-rap Boeing! If your posts are indicative of your verbosity in general then I have great sympathy for your passengers.
Just kidding. Type on, John Donne, type on!
 
Tejas-Jet said:
OK....so tell us if you will....what did you do about those pilots that scared "the ratsh*t out of " you?

Did you report them to your Professional Standards? Or your Chief Pilot? Or the VP of Flight Ops? your company's POI? The FAA?
If anything happens on one of OUR flights, I call Pro Standards.

If it happens on Northwest, I forward it to a friend of mine on the MEC at Northwest and leave it to him to deal with.

If it happened on another airline (it hasn't yet), it'd have to be pretty agregious to make me track down an MEC member I didn't know and, as someone HE doesn't know, proceed to tell them about something one of their pilots did. Probably wouldn't go very far...

That said, it's only happened 3 times, once on our aircraft and twice on Northwest, so they're relatively isolated events and the above-described channels have worked for me.

I always believe in taking things to Pro Standards first. It's polite, professional, and lets the system work from within. Repeated problems and Pro Standards is supposed to take it to the company for retraining / evaluation. The system works.
 
I think the moral of this whole topic should be how to retire comfortably. I understand that there are some out there who have to work past age 60 because of some financial hardships during their careers. However, for a lot of us, we shouldn't have to work to 65 in order to retire.

Don't let anyone but yourself dictate when you can retire. On paper, figure out how you can retire early (pre-60 or pre-65) and make it happen. At my company, if one lives below their means and invests wisely, a person can retire after 20 years even if they never leave the right seat. I'm going to get raises with seniority and upgrades, but I have conservatively planned on how to retire comfortably if my pay never left my current paygrade.

If you are early in your career, don't let Congress or the FAA dictate when you have to retire. Let them set a mandatory retirement age and let you set your retirement date.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top