Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[Jeepman]

Hmmm....

I'm 31 yrs old so I have three options:

1. Be pissed about the idea of the age 60 being moved to 65 and curse at all the senior pilots who are fighting for 5 more years to work before retirement since their pensions were raped from them.

2. Bank on the age 60 rule and pray it doesn't change before I go to a major.

3. Do the best I can where I am now and don't think about more money to spend on a bigger house, newer car, vacation. Instead focus on investing in my retirement however I can, and spending as much time with my family as I can before my girls are grown up and I'm a cranky pissed off airline pilot that has to work until 65 to pay for all of my crap (boat, airplane, divorce, etc). However this option doesn't exclude the option to go to a major, it just doesn't bank on it!

I am going for option 3.

GOOD DAY AND GOOD LUCK!

 

[Flopgut]

Allright Boeingman/Megacaptain:

I have looked more closely at the NC and your not right at all. Those initials you listed were just functionaries. NC policy was shaped by TS and RM, both former PE with 20+ years. I thought I was right, but I had to check into it. Do you even read anything the union puts out? Did you not listen to the P2P calls at all? I'm pretty sure you didn't, you must be too busy.

So you doubt my advice about the lump sum? You don't even really need it, huh? Just extra, eh? That would surprise me, but we do have a few guys like that. They might fly OK, but usually don't know pigpoop from apple butter when it comes to union stuff. So hey, you must be extra wealthy! UAL & USAir and perhaps soon DAL & NWA lose their retirements but your not too sure ole flopgut isn't lying to you. Far better to hang around and make sure a junior creep like me gets not so much as one decent pairing! It would just kill you to see anyone do well or get something that could be yours, even if you don't really want/need it.

Now pay attention: if you lose that lump sum I don't want to hear you gripe about it. Additionally, I don't want to have to negotiate anything special for those of you who might lose it and then want all of us sacrifice and make a special effort to raise you up. You can do something smart and take care of yourself now, or you can be less than smart and put yourself at risk. I carefully make that point to make this point: It is not unlike the age 60 rule. There are things we all need to be doing throughout our careers to get ourselves ready to retire. If most of you age change folks had actually done that, maybe the rest of us would not have to put our career progressions on hold to raise each of you up. Senior CAL pilots need to be ready to act on that lump sum if it becomes in doubt. I DO NOT want to have to be told you need to work to 70 because you lost your lump sum! I DO NOT want to be called a scab, or be called greedy, or have my respect for the early years of ALPA questioned, and I especially DO NOT want to have to put my career on hold again because you senior guys can't make smart decisions. Like Ron White says: "you can't fix stupid".

I have spent the better part of a decade working within rank. Trying to be predictable and helpful and contribute. Now I look ahead at quite possibly 5 years of stagnation with frustration and you tell me "I have a lot of nerve". I'll handle it if I have to, I'll be professional about it, one of us has to be.

No more scab talk. Remember, I want to support the union's position on the issue. You want to craft an additional five years of super senioity for yourself outside the collective bargaining agreement. Who is acting like a scab?

 

[Flopgut]

The Age 60 rule has always been a lousy rule and has never been grounded in anything related to safety. For 48 years it's been screwing otherwise healthy pilots out of their right to continue to fly. Their screwing has enabled others to move up.

Now an attempt is being made to begin to end this discrimination. To do this, those pilots who would have been the beneficiaries of other's hardships will have to wait for 5 years, only a little more than 10% of the time this discriminatory law has been on the books. Of all the things people could blame their lack of up upgrade on (9/11, RJ's, bankruptcy, etc.) blaming it on the righting of a historic wrong (no matter how long it's been that way) is an argument that rings most hollow.

The old cliche' "A rising tide lifts all ships" should be what we in the airline industry look for to insure the continued progression to the left seat, not the indefensible demand that those above a certain age walk the plank to lighten the ship.

I think it is absurd to suggest pilots in my demographic were to be beneficiaries of other's "hardships" singuliarly. What about yourself? How come you don't suggest the same for your own upgrade? Were you special? If you get to work five more years in the left seat your "righting a historic wrong" and I'm taking advantage of someone?! To suggest you retire is an "indefensible demand that you walk the plank". But you sure were delighted when everybody walked the plank senior to you! A little advice: If you want to wax eloquently and NOT sound like a hypocrite, you need to make an urgent plea for pilots <65 and senior to you, to get to come back.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

If you're an f/o looking to upgrade, this change will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The above statement is simply not true. In fact just the opposit is true. Working for five more years totally offsets your above concerns.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Dear ALPA:

From the words of our greatest leaders….

Abraham Lincoln:
In my opinion, the agitation will not cease until a crises shall have been reached and passed. “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” I believe this union cannot endure permanently half of one mind and half of another. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved—I do not expect the house to fall—but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all of the other.

Ronald Reagan:
“Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall.”

With all due respect, there is a message here on the age-60/65 issue.

The crisis will only become greater and greater each day. There is only one way to defuse it. Change.

Regards,
Undaunted Flyer

 

[Dizel8]

The above statement is simply not true. In fact just the opposit is true. Working for five more years totally offsets your above concerns.

Actually, I believe his statement to be true. Earlier upgrade means the ability to invest a larger amount earlier and have it grow over a longer period of time.

 

[Lear70]

Actually, I believe his statement to be true. Earlier upgrade means the ability to invest a larger amount earlier and have it grow over a longer period of time.

BINGO!

Money will definitely be lost, but people are just going to have to suck it up.

You guys are crazy if you think this isn't going to pass eventually.

Flopgut is right about the lump sum. Happened over at Delta; a couple years ago I was screaming at the top of my lungs to anyone who would listen that if they didn't take the lump sum, they'd be sorry. 3 airlines were already killing the pensions and it looked like an easy road to take, easy to predict THAT outcome.

CAL is well-poised to SURVIVE this crap, but it won't do so unscathed. Learn from the past or you are doomed to repeat previous pilot's failures (loosely paraphrased).

 

[Flopgut]

BINGO!

Money will definitely be lost, but people are just going to have to suck it up.

You guys are crazy if you think this isn't going to pass eventually.

Flopgut is right about the lump sum. Happened over at Delta; a couple years ago I was screaming at the top of my lungs to anyone who would listen that if they didn't take the lump sum, they'd be sorry. 3 airlines were already killing the pensions and it looked like an easy road to take, easy to predict THAT outcome.

CAL is well-poised to SURVIVE this crap, but it won't do so unscathed. Learn from the past or you are doomed to repeat previous pilot's failures (loosely paraphrased).

How many more at DAL would have jumped on that lump sum if it were 100%? They very well may have had to hire back early retirees into ALL fleets.

We did not get a chance to verbalize this concern on age 60. This will be a complete ambush. It will cost my generation a lot of money to help these pilots out. Maybe I should go ahead and adopt one or two of these wrinkly old geezers? Then at least I could write them off on my taxes! I'm going to have to give more money up to them than I'll be able to give my kids.

It looks like CAL may be the only airline left with an A plan. That makes me nervous. SuperCaptain Boeingman is representative of a large number of our captains that are nearing (or could) retirement. They are more worried that I might fly captain one day too early! So they'll hang around and INSIST the remainder of the list stand ready to sacrifice anything to protect their A plan. We have done a lot, I don't want to do anything more. If they can't take care of themselves, then at some point we have to cut them loose! I wish we could have said that on age 60!

 

[PurpleInMEM]

I for one have not been convinced that I would want to play this game one minute longer than the current law allows. Coming from the military and now at a second airline, it's certainly not something I look forward to doing until I'm 60, let alone 65, pension or not.

I guess someone would need to make a compelling argument as to why I should support a change to a mandatory age that will make me do this longer. I haven't heard it yet.

Just another case of "don't like the standard?...change the standard"

 

[Flopgut]

Dear ALPA:

From the words of our greatest leaders….

Abraham Lincoln:
In my opinion, the agitation will not cease until a crises shall have been reached and passed. “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” I believe this union cannot endure permanently half of one mind and half of another. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved—I do not expect the house to fall—but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all of the other.

Ronald Reagan:
“Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall.”

With all due respect, there is a message here on the age-60/65 issue.

The crisis will only become greater and greater each day. There is only one way to defuse it. Change.

Regards,
Undaunted Flyer

Respectfully, this sort of characterization makes me sick! You attach such a lofty, elietist tone to your own position. To me, it represents a complete lack of grace in accepting your impending windfall. It is a betrayal of the profession and a huge transfer of wealth into your pockets. I know your head is going to swell into uncharted hat sizes. That you are probably already envisioning a new uniform for age 60+ pilots complete with a cape and sceptre. But could you at least attempt to muster a little humility.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Boeingman-
Flop could have upgraded already (eligible anyhow) but has chosen not to. Don't shed a tear for the lazy.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I for one have not been convinced that I would want to play this game one minute longer than the current law allows. Coming from the military and now at a second airline, it's certainly not something I look forward to doing until I'm 60, let alone 65, pension or not.

I guess someone would need to make a compelling argument as to why I should support a change to a mandatory age that will make me do this longer. I haven't heard it yet.

Just another case of "don't like the standard?...change the standard"

Thank you for your service to this country.

Didn't you serve to protect our freedoms among which is the freedom to work or not work for a company? No one compels you to go fly the purple box hauler. Yet a discriminatory law denies that freedom, to continue flying for the company they WANT to work for, to someone fully capable of doing so.

If you can support something that will offer an opportunity to help others without risking anything to you, why wouldn't you? Common decency is as compelling an argument as any I can think of.

 

[Lear70]

We did not get a chance to verbalize this concern on age 60. This will be a complete ambush. It will cost my generation a lot of money to help these pilots out.

I'm in the same boat as you are, my friend. I'm 35, have a wife and two kids (3 probably by next year) and, when this law goes into effect, it will probably delay my upgrade.

That's a small price to pay to right a long-standing age disrimination practice.

You see, I get to see things from both sides. I will realize lost income because of this, but my father retired USAirways and is bored to tears, doesn't like the charter / corporate game, and wants to get back into the small 121 Supplemental operators out there flying cargo or some other type of Boeing position, but can't because he turns 60 in a couple months.

If he was still at USAirways I don't think I'd be telling him, "Sorry Dad, but I want my upgrade sooner." Especially with his pension shot to hell and back. It's personal on both sides for me, and I have my entire life to make back up for a delay in upgrade money; he doesn't. For me it's that simple.

It looks like CAL may be the only airline left with an A plan. That makes me nervous.

It should.

SuperCaptain Boeingman is representative of a large number of our captains that are nearing (or could) retirement. They are more worried that I might fly captain one day too early!

They SHOULD be worried about their A fund, unless they've already stashed away between $1.5 and $2.0 Million for retirement (very rare).

So they'll hang around and INSIST the remainder of the list stand ready to sacrifice anything to protect their A plan. We have done a lot, I don't want to do anything more. If they can't take care of themselves, then at some point we have to cut them loose! I wish we could have said that on age 60!

Be careful, lest the sins of your youth come back to haunt you (loosely paraphrased). In other words, don't scream to other people when you get screwed in your last flying years by the young "cutting you loose" and changing legislation or contract terms that screw YOU.

Payback's a b*tch. Easier to magnanimously say, "I hope you enjoy your last years of flying," go home, enjoy your family, and find other ways to make up for the shortfall of cash. At least you can pay your bills... Life's just too short to stay hung up on it.

 

[crosscut]

Dear ALPA:

From the words of our greatest leaders….

Abraham Lincoln:
In my opinion, the agitation will not cease until a crises shall have been reached and passed. “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” I believe this union cannot endure permanently half of one mind and half of another. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved—I do not expect the house to fall—but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all of the other.

Ronald Reagan:
“Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall.”

With all due respect, there is a message here on the age-60/65 issue.

The crisis will only become greater and greater each day. There is only one way to defuse it. Change.

Regards,
Undaunted Flyer

Here's another one for ya: "If aint broke, don't fix it." For every one-liner on which you continue to dwell there can be a counter quote. You want a "change?" How about changing the retirement age to 55? How's that for your "change?" "That’s right, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall." If these are your only arguments for the change, change for the sake of changing ain't good enough.

The other master of "free-verse" is, too, in denial. This God's gift calls everyone with a difference of opinion a "scab" & "johny jet jock" while his 15-page epic's are as much of a "diatribe" & as much "condescending" as he claims others to be. Those on furlough can't afford to buy a scale model of L-39 while he claims to joy ride his real one. Another fine example of, "F*** you, I got mine!"

There are some good arguments to make in support but very little has been presented here. BTW, for every one highly skilled & proficient 59-year old there is a hazardous handful and, often, because of their own complacency such as, "I've done this a 1,000 times." Unless you're in the training department, your exposure is limited to one side &, hardly (if ever) do you get to see your own peer. If yours were the two strongest arguments made in favor of the change, the majority of us would have very little to worry about.

 

[comrcap]

For those of us that are "Non-Legacy" pilots who never had a pension to bank on, we need to work to age 65 if we have to being we're not eligible for medicare til age 67. Age 60 is not about safety. It never was. And not every pilot has a government /military pension to fall back on.
Age 60 is going away as it should. If you don't want to work past age 60, don't. Retire. If your argument is a longer upgrade, then I guess the you'll have to wait the 5 years.