Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[SWA/FO]

The Supreme Court disagrees with you. They ruled against a group of Southwest pilots who wanted the rules changed. They stated that they would have to change the rules for more groups, like firemen and policemen. I don't want a 62 year old fireman carrying me out of a burning house. Nope.

The Supreme Court refused to hear the case. (I think) I don't care how old the person is that carries me out of a burning house, just so they get my a$$ out.

 

[Phaedrus]

"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before," Bokonon tells us. "He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."-- Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]

 

[Huck]

I would like to be the first to propose and offer a solution to your comment above. If the age rule ever changes to age 65 some day that we offer all the guys that were forced out at 60 but that are not yet 65 a chance to come back to the airline they worked for so I don't get that windfall. The airlines would have to retrain them and then they are entitled to there original seniority back above me at SWA until they get to 65 with full benefits! That would make it fair for everyone and I would sign off on that immediately!

That's because you're already a captain. It's a pretty safe bet that there won't be any downgrades because of all this - it would increase training costs (maybe not at SWA but definitely at FDX.)

If you're a captain, all you're looking at is decreased seniority for a few years.

If you're an f/o looking to upgrade, this change will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

As my 75 year old instructor on the Twin Beech told me 16 years ago, "It's all whose ox is getting gored...."

 

[sandman2122]

can't wait....

Oh I can't wait until I have to fly with one of those greedy over 60 %^#*&!

I'll have to start keep a tab on how many times I have to cover their mistakes for missing checklist items, radio calls, level off's .etc......

But wait! I'm already doing that with a lot of the over 55 group!

 

[Jim Smyth]

If you're an f/o looking to upgrade, this change will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

So then its not about my greed then is it since I am already topped out at the 12+ year pay scale at our company?

My comments were aimed at the few that continually keep ripping on me in here. You try to use logic and try to make compromises or offer constructive ideas that may benefit everyone. But then you get the comments about keeping your orginal wife ( I only had and still have just 1). Buying your second home ( I only have 1). Making good investments ( I have lived within my means my whole career).

But all alot of the younger guys see is getting into the left seat and maybe having to wait a few more years to get there if its does go to 65. Most Pilots attitudes to this issue start to change around 40 years old.

If they made it 65 I would probably only go to 62 (current situation) when my Social security kicks in unless I dont have any medical coverage at that time which would probably force me to go to 65. Medical is a hugh deal to me. I have seen lots of bad things happen to people over my life in reguards to health and if you arnt covered you loose big time. Now I am sure the same smart A$$es will come in and say then go buy some. I have health insurance with my work and will buy it if and when its needed and not a moment sooner.

 

[skykid]

Here is some interesting reading - I got it in an email and apologize for not having a source. I investigate aircraft accidents (mostly general aviation) and am amazed how many involve pilots over 60.

Average Pilot Age Increasing -- Accidents, Too

Statistics compiled by The Associated Press suggest that the older you are,the harder you'll fall. The news gathering organization pored over FAA and NTSB records and determined that pilots older than 50 have a significantly greater chance of crashing than younger pilots. The stats perhaps take on even greater significance considering the fact that the average age of pilots is now 47. The AP report also found that the accident rate went up with age, and that those in their 60s were at a roughly proportional greater risk of crashing. Older pilots were also in more fatal accidents. The AP undertook the research after what it described as "a rash of plane crashes involving older pilots in Southern California." Just how many crashes constitute "a rash," the news service didn't say. However, several of the accidents attracted significant media coverage, particularly one on July 7,2004, in which a Harmon Rocket plunged through the roof of a house in SealBeach, Calif., with 62-year-old Ross Anderson, an ex-Navy pilot, in the cockpit. Friends insist Anderson must have been incapacitated before the crash. "The way the accident happened, there was no way he was at the controls," David Hallmark told the AP. "There's no way with his experience that he would've done what the airplane was doing." Occupants of the house escaped serious injury but the house was destroyed and legal wrangling has prevented reconstruction.

Crash Statistics, From The Associated Press

According to the AP's research, pilots older than 50 were involved in 55.8 percent of accidents over a five-year period even though they constituteonly 36.8 percent of certificated pilots. And, apparently, the older a pilot gets, the greater the risk. Pilots between the ages of 50 and 59 had 26.4 percent of accidents, marginally higher than their percentage of the pilot population, which is about 22.1 percent, but those 60 and older had 23.6 percent of accidents even though they make up only 14.7 percent of certificated pilots. The research also determined that those under 50 consistently had proportionately fewer accidents throughout the five-year sample period. To its credit, the AP asked experts if its findings had any sort of real-world merit. According to the experts they consulted, the methodology was "simple but sound." However, it should be pointed out that any number of factors, including pilot experience (complacency?), history (old, bold pilots?) and aircraft type (higher income equals higher performance, equals higher impact speed?) were not factored into the research and may have influenced the results.

Most Pilots attitudes to this issue start to change around 40 years old.

I don't know about that - I undestand that is your opinion.

 

[Huck]

I'm not ripping into anybody. As I have stated before, when I'm 59 I'll probably change my mind on this.

But I'm not there yet. And this business has turned hard, brutal and ever-changing. After watching my dad (NWA, ret) and my uncle (UAL) and some good friends get their lives shot out from under them (or the threat of it in my dad's case) I've developed a philosophy: bottom line everything. Every decision is based on how much it will make me. Not in 20 years, but now.

I refuse to even acknowledge our A plan pension, for instance, because it is worthless to me. I can't depend on it. I wish I could get out of it right now and put the money in my B fund.

I need to upgrade and make money. This rule change will slow that down. So I'm against it. I certainly respect the other side, and one day I'll join it. But the future is just too uncertain for me to look that far ahead.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Thanks skykid ... that was the article I read also. These old dudes are a hazard ... no question about it. 60 has proven to be a great age to mandate retirement. It forces the geezers (who are already displaying signs of dementia) out of the cockpit before a disaster makes it obvious.

Boringman, your war and peace epic maxed out my "who-gives-a-crap" meter early on. Brevity is key. Rambling, long-winded responses are another sign of advanced age.

BBB

 

[Boeingman]

Boringman, your war and peace epic maxed out my "who-gives-a-crap" meter early on. Brevity is key. Rambling, long-winded responses are another sign of advanced age.

BBB

What a treat!! I just walk in the door and our resident anti geezer Johnny Junior Jet Jock has posted. But you disappoint me with no rambling childlike arguments this time. What gives? Did your immaturameter break? Or do you just not have the abiltiy or intelligence to take part in a responsible conversation or debate? No worries sonny, when you grow up you'll learn.

BTW, can you post the news article you found about long winded responses are an advanced sign of age? I mean I am sure you are just stroking yourself to that really technical article about general aviation pilots. So if you can break your hands free from yourself, please do post it.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

What a treat!! I just walk in the door and our resident anti geezer Johnny Junior Jet Jock has posted. But you disappoint me with no rambling childlike arguments this time. What gives? Did your immaturameter break? Or do you just not have the abiltiy or intelligence to take part in a responsible conversation or debate? No worries sonny, when you grow up you'll learn.

BTW, can you post the news article you found about long winded responses are an advanced sign of age? I mean I am sure you are just stroking yourself to that really technical article about general aviation pilots. So if you can break your hands free from yourself, please do post it.

[yawn]

 

[Boeingman]

[yawn]

Before you fall a sleep there Belly, be sure to get some kleenex and clean yourself up.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Alright boringman ... I'll write back.

The fact is a disproportionate number of general aviation old farts are crashing airplanes and killing people. No doubt SOME of these accidents have been attributed to the diminished mental capacity associated with aging. I'm willing to bet there are similar rates of dementia and mental degradation occurring in both populations (general aviation and airline pilot). After talking to numerous other airline pilots, I'm confident ONE of the major reasons old geezer airline pilots don't crash nearly as often as their general aviation brethren is due to timely safety intervention by their first officers.

To deny that: vision deteriorates with age, reflexes slow, mental acuity slows, memory is impaired, hearing declines, etc... is foolish. Age 60 is an appropriate accommodation to mandate retirement in the interest of safety.

Now go die your hair and soak your dentures pops!

BBB

 

[Jim Smyth]

Well since current Professional Airline Pilots cant fly past 60 they wouldnt be included in that report now would they? General aviation has always been and will always be way more dangerous than Airline flying with its many layers of protection. The maintenance isnt there plus the skill level isnt there with usually a single Pilot operation. Besides, we have super Co-Pilots like Triple "BBB" to keep us out of trouble.

 

[skykid]

General aviation has always been and will always be way more dangerous than Airline flying with its many layers of protection.

That's not what the article is about. The article is about how age plays a factor in the accidents. But like you said, we have many layers of protection, so why not let airline pilots go till they are 100 or dead, whichever occurs first? All those layers of protection will keep the danger level down.

 

[skykid]

General aviation has always been and will always be way more dangerous than Airline flying with its many layers of protection.

And guess what one of those layers of protection is? Give up? Hang em up at AGE 60!!

 

[Jeepman]

Hmmm....

I'm 31 yrs old so I have three options:

1. Be pissed about the idea of the age 60 being moved to 65 and curse at all the senior pilots who are fighting for 5 more years to work before retirement since their pensions were raped from them.

2. Bank on the age 60 rule and pray it doesn't change before I go to a major.

3. Do the best I can where I am now and don't think about more money to spend on a bigger house, newer car, vacation. Instead focus on investing in my retirement however I can, and spending as much time with my family as I can before my girls are grown up and I'm a cranky pissed off airline pilot that has to work until 65 to pay for all of my crap (boat, airplane, divorce, etc). However this option doesn't exclude the option to go to a major, it just doesn't bank on it!

I am going for option 3.

GOOD DAY AND GOOD LUCK!

 

[Flopgut]

Allright Boeingman/Megacaptain:

I have looked more closely at the NC and your not right at all. Those initials you listed were just functionaries. NC policy was shaped by TS and RM, both former PE with 20+ years. I thought I was right, but I had to check into it. Do you even read anything the union puts out? Did you not listen to the P2P calls at all? I'm pretty sure you didn't, you must be too busy.

So you doubt my advice about the lump sum? You don't even really need it, huh? Just extra, eh? That would surprise me, but we do have a few guys like that. They might fly OK, but usually don't know pigpoop from apple butter when it comes to union stuff. So hey, you must be extra wealthy! UAL & USAir and perhaps soon DAL & NWA lose their retirements but your not too sure ole flopgut isn't lying to you. Far better to hang around and make sure a junior creep like me gets not so much as one decent pairing! It would just kill you to see anyone do well or get something that could be yours, even if you don't really want/need it.

Now pay attention: if you lose that lump sum I don't want to hear you gripe about it. Additionally, I don't want to have to negotiate anything special for those of you who might lose it and then want all of us sacrifice and make a special effort to raise you up. You can do something smart and take care of yourself now, or you can be less than smart and put yourself at risk. I carefully make that point to make this point: It is not unlike the age 60 rule. There are things we all need to be doing throughout our careers to get ourselves ready to retire. If most of you age change folks had actually done that, maybe the rest of us would not have to put our career progressions on hold to raise each of you up. Senior CAL pilots need to be ready to act on that lump sum if it becomes in doubt. I DO NOT want to have to be told you need to work to 70 because you lost your lump sum! I DO NOT want to be called a scab, or be called greedy, or have my respect for the early years of ALPA questioned, and I especially DO NOT want to have to put my career on hold again because you senior guys can't make smart decisions. Like Ron White says: "you can't fix stupid".

I have spent the better part of a decade working within rank. Trying to be predictable and helpful and contribute. Now I look ahead at quite possibly 5 years of stagnation with frustration and you tell me "I have a lot of nerve". I'll handle it if I have to, I'll be professional about it, one of us has to be.

No more scab talk. Remember, I want to support the union's position on the issue. You want to craft an additional five years of super senioity for yourself outside the collective bargaining agreement. Who is acting like a scab?

 

[Flopgut]

The Age 60 rule has always been a lousy rule and has never been grounded in anything related to safety. For 48 years it's been screwing otherwise healthy pilots out of their right to continue to fly. Their screwing has enabled others to move up.

Now an attempt is being made to begin to end this discrimination. To do this, those pilots who would have been the beneficiaries of other's hardships will have to wait for 5 years, only a little more than 10% of the time this discriminatory law has been on the books. Of all the things people could blame their lack of up upgrade on (9/11, RJ's, bankruptcy, etc.) blaming it on the righting of a historic wrong (no matter how long it's been that way) is an argument that rings most hollow.

The old cliche' "A rising tide lifts all ships" should be what we in the airline industry look for to insure the continued progression to the left seat, not the indefensible demand that those above a certain age walk the plank to lighten the ship.

I think it is absurd to suggest pilots in my demographic were to be beneficiaries of other's "hardships" singuliarly. What about yourself? How come you don't suggest the same for your own upgrade? Were you special? If you get to work five more years in the left seat your "righting a historic wrong" and I'm taking advantage of someone?! To suggest you retire is an "indefensible demand that you walk the plank". But you sure were delighted when everybody walked the plank senior to you! A little advice: If you want to wax eloquently and NOT sound like a hypocrite, you need to make an urgent plea for pilots <65 and senior to you, to get to come back.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

If you're an f/o looking to upgrade, this change will cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The above statement is simply not true. In fact just the opposit is true. Working for five more years totally offsets your above concerns.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Dear ALPA:

From the words of our greatest leaders….

Abraham Lincoln:
In my opinion, the agitation will not cease until a crises shall have been reached and passed. “A house divided against itself cannot stand.” I believe this union cannot endure permanently half of one mind and half of another. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved—I do not expect the house to fall—but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all of the other.

Ronald Reagan:
“Mr. Gorbechev, tear down this wall.”

With all due respect, there is a message here on the age-60/65 issue.

The crisis will only become greater and greater each day. There is only one way to defuse it. Change.

Regards,
Undaunted Flyer