Over AGE 60 PILOTS TO FLY IN UNITED STATES

[Boeingman]

My beef is with your blame not your position.

How could I be a scab with 11k hours? How many years ago was that?

Did I say you were a scab or ask? There is a big difference. I am not sure what your posted hours mean either. You could put a lunar landing on your profile and it is still unverifiable.

Frankly, I consider the NC seniority level to be senior! I am quite junior to them, <10 years at CAL. I know there is a better way than what we are doing, I have seen it.

You are quite junior to them? The NC ----- BK 7/31/94 JP 10/9/89 DZ 1/26/98
So you were hired after 96 and you are running your mouth like this? You are spewing rhetoric with no facts to try and make your argument have some perceived validity, look at the hire dates of the NC. I have to be honest with Flopgut. I think you have one hell of a lot of nerve talking like you do. You act like the world, the airline and everyone owes you something. Your <10 years and a couple of bucks might buy you a cup of coffee, but not any sympathy from me.

It pains me to watch things happen here.

It pains me to listen to guys like you casting blame.

It would be typical CAL politics that you would have no idea what goes on with most FOs.

You are talking typical airline politics. The same can be said in reverse.

I hear often that we should have a captains only raise.

I call bull to that. I have never heard anyone utter anything that even closely resembles that statement. You know what Flopgut, I think the problem is that you are being busted by someone intimately familiar with the dealings at CAL. Like this absurd statement and your NC junior to me remarks makes me wonder about your true identity and your employer.

It is obvious too that you have no regard for the affect this will have on FOs.

I have about as much regard for you as you do for those that feel the age cutoff is discriminatory or those that have had their retirements decimated and need to work.

We are on the precipice of a wholesale seniority change here.

The seniority system is always been in a state of flux. Personally I don’t think many older guys will want to stay anyway. This is no longer a career it is a job. AN a lousy one at that.

I think it would be good. I wish you the best in your retirement, you are likely to already have more than I will get. I can't work on changing that until you retire.

Why is it you can’t work on changing that? Already you are represented by very junior pilots. Next lame assumption please.

You concede as much in your last paragraph: You feel you got screwed, so it should be OK to screw me. I have a novel idea: How about nobody get screwed? Lets get the best deal we can for everybody!

Are you a female? Only a woman could twist a statement like that into your response. Please think before you type.

Lets talk dollars, if you don't mind? Just round numbers. You’re a B756 CA and you drop the S bomb a lot.

No, I asked you a question because like it or not your principles are close. You seem to have difficulty with the concept of a term in a question format.

Additionally, you think the NC members were "junior" with around 20 years.

I hate to break the news to you sport, but the average seniority hire of the NC is 1994. Seeing how this is 2006 I come up with an average seniority of 12 years. Next argument you would like me to poke holes through?

So I'm guessing you have 25+ years at CAL.

Good guess.

The last guy I visited with that kind of longevity at retirement got a lump sum check for 900K. It might be as little as 750K, but still, how are any of the rest of us suppose to match that?

You sound jealous. Here is a newsflash sport. Don’t count on the airlines to provide you retirement for you. I really don’t care how you intend to match it. Besides if you are so concerned about yourself, why do you not extend that same concern about "matching" to the unfortunate people who lost their retirements? Or do you always have this double standard opportunism in your life? Now do you wonder why I think you are a scab? Again flopgut the difference is I am asking or wondering. Not implying.

The plan is frozen, the B plan stinks, the pay is down, and now we might have to keep you senior guys around.

How did you vote on the last contract? You may have to keep the senior guys around because the law which is discriminatory may change.
Also don’t include the word "you" pertaining to me. I am thinking about punching out early or I might go to the B777. I'll check with you to see if I deserve to go or not before I bid it.

You are going to want us to negotiate more for you, and I know you have taken a hit, frankly I would like to see you get more. But you don't have that same regard for me, do you?

I have bout as much empathy for you as you do for me. How is that. What really irks me about you is your lame arguments and attacks on those who were here long before you were and you characterizations that all the problems today are due to the senior pilots.

I'm not a scab. All I want is to wait in line and take a turn at the best deal we can create here at CAL.

But you sound like one, I’ll take your word for it. You sure benefitted from the deals those senior to you created in this industry. If anything, I have talked to more junior pilots who voted for C02 than senior guys. Now who is hosing whom? You did just say that the A plan is frozen etc. etc. etc. Whom has been harmed?

You throw around the scab term enough that to me, I seriously doubt you "never whined and complained about getting hosed".

Oh I whined all right but then I grew up and realized that I have to make good for myself about my own retirement and not rely on the airline. You think I was never screwed or those in my seniority by guys before us who were senior?

Sounds to me like you’re a little displeased with some of our pilots.

I think the yes voters were brow beaten and scared into voting for a really poor deal. I also don’t like attitudes like yours that remind me of those types you claim not to be. I sure am displeased with you me me me me me me attitude. Copy a couple of your posts and read them about 10 to 20 years from now.

Well take a look at what this does to my career, the result is very much the same as a crossed picket line. Just what am I supposed to do?

Huh?

Be happy that seniority progression gets deferred for five years cause your such a great captain?

Seniority progression will still occur. There are very few that want to stay in this business. If you would take your blinders off for a minute and realize that it is better to have the option to fly more than it is to have to leave.

I'm not calling you a scab, but have you even considered for a moment what its like for the junior pilots?

You’re right Flopgut. I was never junior. I waltzed right into this senior Captain position. Or are you saying I need to attend some sensitivity encounter training? A course which would be for some guys like you who are not discussing but whining and placing blame on all the ills of the company and the industry because of senior pilots.

 

[Flopgut]

Did I say you were a scab or ask? There is a big difference. I am not sure what your posted hours mean either. You could put a lunar landing on your profile and it is still unverifiable.

You are quite junior to them? The NC ----- BK 7/31/94 JP 10/9/89 DZ 1/26/98
So you were hired after 96 and you are running your mouth like this? You are spewing rhetoric with no facts to try and make your argument have some perceived validity, look at the hire dates of the NC. I have to be honest with Flopgut. I think you have one hell of a lot of nerve talking like you do. You act like the world, the airline and everyone owes you something. Your <10 years and a couple of bucks might buy you a cup of coffee, but not any sympathy from me.

It pains me to listen to guys like you casting blame.

You are talking typical airline politics. The same can be said in reverse.


I call bull to that. I have never heard anyone utter anything that even closely resembles that statement. You know what Flopgut, I think the problem is that you are being busted by someone intimately familiar with the dealings at CAL. Like this absurd statement and your NC junior to me remarks makes me wonder about your true identity and your employer.

I have about as much regard for you as you do for those that feel the age cutoff is discriminatory or those that have had their retirements decimated and need to work.


The seniority system is always been in a state of flux. Personally I don’t think many older guys will want to stay anyway. This is no longer a career it is a job. AN a lousy one at that.

Why is it you can’t work on changing that? Already you are represented by very junior pilots. Next lame assumption please.

Are you a female? Only a woman could twist a statement like that into your response. Please think before you type.


No, I asked you a question because like it or not your principles are close. You seem to have difficulty with the concept of a term in a question format.

I hate to break the news to you sport, but the average seniority hire of the NC is 1994. Seeing how this is 2006 I come up with an average seniority of 12 years. Next argument you would like me to poke holes through?

Good guess.

You sound jealous. Here is a newsflash sport. Don’t count on the airlines to provide you retirement for you. I really don’t care how you intend to match it. Besides if you are so concerned about yourself, why do you not extend that same concern about "matching" to the unfortunate people who lost their retirements? Or do you always have this double standard opportunism in your life? Now do you wonder why I think you are a scab? Again flopgut the difference is I am asking or wondering. Not implying.

How did you vote on the last contract? You may have to keep the senior guys around because the law which is discriminatory may change.
Also don’t include the word "you" pertaining to me. I am thinking about punching out early or I might go to the B777. I'll check with you to see if I deserve to go or not before I bid it.

I have bout as much empathy for you as you do for me. How is that. What really irks me about you is your lame arguments and attacks on those who were here long before you were and you characterizations that all the problems today are due to the senior pilots.


But you sound like one, I’ll take your word for it. You sure benefitted from the deals those senior to you created in this industry. If anything, I have talked to more junior pilots who voted for C02 than senior guys. Now who is hosing whom? You did just say that the A plan is frozen etc. etc. etc. Whom has been harmed?


Oh I whined all right but then I grew up and realized that I have to make good for myself about my own retirement and not rely on the airline. You think I was never screwed or those in my seniority by guys before us who were senior?


I think the yes voters were brow beaten and scared into voting for a really poor deal. I also don’t like attitudes like yours that remind me of those types you claim not to be. I sure am displeased with you me me me me me me attitude. Copy a couple of your posts and read them about 10 to 20 years from now.

Huh?

Seniority progression will still occur. There are very few that want to stay in this business. If you would take your blinders off for a minute and realize that it is better to have the option to fly more than it is to have to leave.


You’re right Flopgut. I was never junior. I waltzed right into this senior Captain position. Or are you saying I need to attend some sensitivity encounter training? A course which would be for some guys like you who are not discussing but whining and placing blame on all the ills of the company and the industry because of senior pilots.

Thank you, nice rant. Could not have asked for a better example of why the age 60 rule should stay in place. Folks, here's your captain for an additional five years.

Year ten and I don't even get an opinion (there are around 1500 pilots beneath me that don't matter to this guy either) wants to know if I'm a scab, doesn't know and doesn't care if I can make up my retirement....nice.

My friend, I'm taking care of my retirement just fine. I know all about lost retirements. My father started in DC3s flying 12 legs a day for $400. At the age of 53 with 24 longevity years his airline faltered and his fully funded A plan got liberated by a CEO. You talk about the sages of this industry building it up for us like I have no idea anyone flew before me! I have news for you, somebody flew before you too skipper! Let me tell you exactly what he would say to you: If you need to work past 60 then you can go get another job somewhere. He did. The rule has been around a long time, there have always been those that opposed it, but they were a minority, just as they are now. What is about to happen is a fluke. The old timers I know, the ones I respect most, happen to oppose it. If ICAO rules were 59 years old for pilot retirement, I would be against it. I would not want to see that sort of thing forced on you. How can you so easily dismiss the concerns of the rest of your pilot group?

You should retire early. You better take advantage of that 100% lump sum and go before it does. I have a lot of years left but I tell my rep to guard that 100%, I don't want to see you get some annuity they have no intention of funding! And I hope you do me the courtesy of not griping about losing it if you decide not to go, I don't want to hear it!

 

[Flopgut]

additionally:

I am not jealous of your retirement! In a way I'm proud of it. I am glad we perserved as much of it as we did and very happy we perserved the 100% lump sum. That is huge. USAir, UAL,soon NWA, DAL.... Gone and going, none of them had a 100% lump sum. I want you to protect that, you need to be spring loaded to RETIRE! I know what it is like to lose that from a family perspective.

 

[Bringupthebird]

The Age 60 rule has always been a lousy rule and has never been grounded in anything related to safety. For 48 years it's been screwing otherwise healthy pilots out of their right to continue to fly. Their screwing has enabled others to move up.

Now an attempt is being made to begin to end this discrimination. To do this, those pilots who would have been the beneficiaries of other's hardships will have to wait for 5 years, only a little more than 10% of the time this discriminatory law has been on the books. Of all the things people could blame their lack of up upgrade on (9/11, RJ's, bankruptcy, etc.) blaming it on the righting of a historic wrong (no matter how long it's been that way) is an argument that rings most hollow.

The old cliche' "A rising tide lifts all ships" should be what we in the airline industry look for to insure the continued progression to the left seat, not the indefensible demand that those above a certain age walk the plank to lighten the ship.

 

[washout]

lets see...greed..failed marriageS...invested in elephants that poop gold bars...money mismanagement..no life...oh well..i will have to be #1 on the seniority list for another 5 years...

you mean they DON'T poop gold bars?? oh this is not going to be pretty....

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Hey, Undaunted Flyer, ........... comments?

OK. First let me say that I have nothing but respect for the follow board members that state their thoughts here. Everyone, for the most part, makes meaningful posts. And I am impressed with the way most everyone is treated with respect.

Every age-59 pilot feels just as young pilots do about working and providing for their family. I personally feel that I am in the prime of my career with regard to my abilities. I also have a family including a 15-year old son at home. I haven’t had multiple wives or made bad investments. But if I did that shouldn't make any difference. Others just have bad luck in their marriages, plus the job doesn't help anything in that department either.

My career hasn't been great: It included the usual furlough but in my case it was twice. One for 1-year and one for 3-years. Plus 10-years on the panel of 727's and DC-10's. Finally I am now living the dream and it took a long time. I would have been happy to retire with almost full pay at 60 but that has all fallen apart as everyone knows. So that's life. But I am able to work and I need to work to provide for my family. Every pilot in the world, (Canadians, Mexicans, Indians, ETC) over age-60 are now able to fly into this country so why not me and every other American if they want to and they are able to so.

I fully understand the feelings of the junior furloughees, but their time will come if they will just be patient. And if you add it up, by saving the maximum in your 401k every year, I doubt that very many will have enough money to really retire at age 60 as so many say they would do. Believe me it just won't happen in all likelihood that you'll have 1.5 to 2 Million in today’s dollars to safely retire. And what if you are unlucky and invest your 401k in equities and the next day there is a terrorist attack and then the market falls by 50%. That can happen. Or what if you come home and find your wife has taken off with your neighbor friend and half of everything you own is gone. These things happen and have happened to many of our colleagues. So if you find yourself in any of these positions then you'll be glad to be able to work.

Believe me, getting rid of the age-60 rule is better for everyone in the long term.

Personally, I don’t think I want to retire at 65, but it would be nice to be able to retire when I want to, maybe at 62. No one wants to retire when the FAA says you’re too old under one regulation but young enough under another if you’re in Japan, flying to the US.

Comments.

 

[Boeingman]

Thank you, nice rant. Could not have asked for a better example of why the age 60 rule should stay in place. Folks, here's your captain for an additional five years.

That makes a lot of sense. But you didn’t do basic addition and subtraction to figure out your whining about the NC was off the wall and inaccurate. Now who has the diminishing cognitive skills? I note that you haven’t comment about that further so I will take that as a point in my court.

Year ten and I don't even get an opinion (there are around 1500 pilots beneath me that don't matter to this guy either)

I didn’t say that. Once again you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is for a guy that has been around as little as you have, you got a really big set of balls disparaging your senior peers and blaming all your, the airlines, and the industries problems on the senior guys.

wants to know if I'm a scab,

Get over it all ready. I asked a question you answered it. If you keep getting so sensitive it makes one wonder.

doesn't know and doesn't care if I can make up my retirement....nice.

Didn’t quite say that either. I did say that given your empathy at lecturing about other pilots financials it is hard to have any empathy with you.

My friend, I'm taking care of my retirement just fine.

Good for you.

I know all about lost retirements. My father started in DC3s flying 12 legs a day for $400. At the age of 53 with 24 longevity years his airline faltered and his fully funded A plan got liberated by a CEO.

There are thousands like your father whose careers have been destroyed. Given that, you of all people should not be so shortsighted to see that for many, flying past an arbitrary and capricious rule is necessary.

You talk about the sages of this industry building it up for us like I have no idea anyone flew before me! I have news for you, somebody flew before you too skipper!

Judging by your rants, that is hard to believe

Let me tell you exactly what he would say to you: If you need to work past 60 then you can go get another job somewhere.

Let me tell you what I would say to him. Go screw* yourself (*insert harsher language where appropriate). Have you ever considered that it is not a need for some?

He did.

He had no choice since he was unemployed. What is your point?

The rule has been around a long time, there have always been those that opposed it, but they were a minority, just as they are now.

I disagree. After the destruction of pensions I seriously doubt there are a minority against this.

What is about to happen is a fluke. The old timers I know, the ones I respect most, happen to oppose it. If ICAO rules were 59 years old for pilot retirement, I would be against it. I would not want to see that sort of thing forced on you.

Riiiight. So then it is not a safety issue at all. You talkem out of both sides of mouth kimosabee.

How can you so easily dismiss the concerns of the rest of your pilot group?

You’re right. I am the only one at CAL that wants this even though I do not intend to fly past 60. OK.

You should retire early. You better take advantage of that 100% lump sum and go before it does.

Translation= Please give me your seniority number as soon as possible. I only have less than ten years here but it is beneath me to be jerking gear. I will come up with as many lame arguments as possible to try and scare you into leaving, like the lump sum carrot dangle.

I have a lot of years left but I tell my rep to guard that 100%, I don't want to see you get some annuity they have no intention of funding! And I hope you do me the courtesy of not griping about losing it if you decide not to go, I don't want to hear it!

Really dumb argument here. I see what you’re trying to accomplish.. ohh ohh I better retire to give my seat to Mr. Less than ten year first officer or my piddly little lump sum may evaporate. Do you actually believe that people buy this carrot and stick approach?

I am not jealous of your retirement! In a way I'm proud of it. I am glad we perserved as much of it as we did and very happy we perserved the 100% lump sum. That is huge. USAir, UAL,soon NWA, DAL.... Gone and going, none of them had a 100% lump sum. I want you to protect that, you need to be spring loaded to RETIRE! I know what it is like to lose that from a family perspective.

I see, there you go again dangling that lump sum in my face. Has it ever occurred to you that I don’t need my lump sum?
OK then, now that we have gone through this diatribe I will repeat what I said to you which you continue to fail to address. I have no problem with your opinion, but I do have a major problem with your lame dysfunctional argument that the ills of the industry are the fault of senior people. I pointed out to you (and you handily ignored) the composition of the NC committee to, in the very least poke a hole in your argument. I must have since you now at least ignore that.

You logic in using this argument is so transparent I am embarrassed for you.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Boeing ... it's obvious brevity is not your strong point. Try this:

RETIRE, YOU OLD GEEZER! :smash:

 

[flyer172r]

Personally, I don’t think I want to retire at 65, but it would be nice to be able to retire when I want to, maybe at 62. No one wants to retire when the FAA says you’re too old under one regulation but young enough under another if you’re in Japan, flying to the US.

Comments.

I don't have a dog in this fight since I'm just starting out in my career. All I have to say are two things.

1. I will agree that if foreign airlines start allowing pilots to fly up to 65, it makes a strong case for the U.S. to allow it as well.

2. You say it'd be nice to be able to retire when you want, but what happens when someone wants to retire at 66? I don't know how likely that would be, I suspect not very. However, I'm starting to think that changing the arbitrary restriction will just lead to another debate over raising it again in ten, twenty years. Would it be better to push for elminating the restriction altogether, perhaps raising the medical standards every few years?

 

[Boeingman]

Boeing ... it's obvious brevity is not your strong point. Try this:

RETIRE, YOU OLD GEEZER! :smash:

BBB did you miss the part where I said I will probably punch out early. Long before 60?