One Rate for Comair? Thanx SkyWest

[Flyer1015]

First off, you need to read my post. It was an average!!!!!! ( otherwise known as a form of blended rate).All I'm going by is what is on two web sites. It says that the 135 pays 69 max. The 145 pays 80. XJT guys got a pay raise. Good on ya!!!!!!!! Let's do the math shall we? 92.41+81.69/2=87.05 87.05 is your new average at Express Jet.


AF

Mathematically speaking, the "averages" idea works so as long as both groups you speak of are roughly broken down 50/50. In another words, it would assume that there are 50% ERJ-135s and 50% ERJ-145s.

However, it is not 50/50, in fact:

30 of the -135s

236 of the -145s (by end of 2005).

 

[ArcticFlier]

Mathematically speaking, the "averages" idea works so as long as both groups you speak of are roughly broken down 50/50. In another words, it would assume that there are 50% ERJ-135s and 50% ERJ-145s.

However, it is not 50/50, in fact:

30 of the -135s

236 of the -145s (by end of 2005).

I'm aware it's not perfect..................but it does make the point, nonetheless.


AF

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

First off, you need to read my post. It was an average!!!!!! ( otherwise known as a form of blended rate).All I'm going by is what is on two web sites. It says that the 135 pays 69 max. The 145 pays 80. XJT guys got a pay raise. Good on ya!!!!!!!! Let's do the math shall we? 92.41+81.69/2=87.05 87.05 is your new average at Express Jet.


AF

I think he was just making it a point that your first "average post" was inaccurate.

TA

 

[bvt1151]

Whether it's a blended rate or not your managment would be gunning for that $17 million. If SKYW got a new payscale tomorrow with $20 override for the 70 seater do you think that concession demands at CMR would go away?

Quit looking for a scapegoat. We're just not buying it.

The concessions stink, but the blended rates are the only real slap in the face. 90-seat aircraft for $90 an hour MAX? Thats even worse than Mesa and Chautauqua. What other regional airline has proven pilots are willing to work for one rate? Only Skywest. I'm not saying they were malicious in voting it in, I just think it illustrates how a single pilot groups "innocent" decision affects the whole regional industry.

I think a non-blended-rate agreement at Skywest would eliminate the blended rate agreement being forced down Comair's throat. Remember, the judge wants to see precidence. If a pilot group actually voted for a blended rate, he'll think it can't be unfair for Comair to be forced into one.

Look at the Comair future rates and compare them to Skywest's. They are 5% less than Skywest across the board. Freds offered an identical Skywest payscale minus 5%. Now tell me again this has nothing to do with Skywest?

 

[ILS2DH]

These payrates suck, no doubt. But I don't think we need to worry about flying 90 seaters at these rates -- we're NEVER going to get them. Just more BS from Fred. Delta will (and should I believe) get them, NW is setting up shop for 70s and 90s, and US Air is getting them as well. 90 seat pay scales at regionals are just bait, that's all.

 

[JI Gone OH]

90-seat aircraft for $90 an hour MAX?

I.M.H.O., we should only be negotiating pay scales for equipment we have on the property....

 

[JI Gone OH]

and US Air is getting them as well.

I thought that Mid Atlantic's 90's were going to CHQ?

 

[ILS2DH]

Mid Atlantic's 70s went to CHQ. Not sure what happened to their pilots. About a month or so ago I read that they would be getting 90s. Makes you wonder what will happen to the 90s that Mesa flies for AWA.

 

[crzepilot]

I don't think the pilot group should stand for this, this is not a union, I know that alpa would incur penalties for a strike, but who gives 2 cents now, all pilots should just get together and have our own walk out. This is BS

 

[JI Gone OH]

Mid Atlantic's 70s went to CHQ.

You're absolutely correct; I was still waking up.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Look at the Comair future rates and compare them to Skywest's. They are 5% less than Skywest across the board. Freds offered an identical Skywest payscale minus 5%. Now tell me again this has nothing to do with Skywest?

Look. I guess you just don't get it. CMR pilots wages would be under attack regardless of SKYW's long expired TA. Managment is after 17 or so million bucks. They have chosen to try and cram a blended rate down CMR pilots throats. Would you feel better if they separated the rates and still made you take a paycut? The bottom line is the total payroll is being reduced. It's just a matter of how the pain is being spread. The union might be able to negotiate separate rates but they are going to be a lower than they are now.

I got out of this industry for a period of time thanks to CMR and other airlines that went to PFT. I wasn't about to spend 10 grand for a 12,000 a year job. I watched guys with fewer hours and less experience move into the regional jobs. Those are the same people that will be most effected by these paycuts. I worked in the construction industry while some guys and gals bought their jobs and supported a practice that was extremely detrimental to the profession. Don't lecture me about how SKYW is the reason for CMR paycuts. The mothership is bankrupt. Maybe you didn't get the memo.

 

[strega7]

Well said Dave! Think of where we might be if the Comair pilot group had said NO! to PFT. But those guys wanted jobs so bad they would even pay for them! That's like worse than Ho Jets or something.

 

[ArcticFlier]

I think he was just making it a point that your first "average post" was inaccurate.

TA

How was it inaccurate? I said it was an average between pay rates for the different, but similar aircraft. To further expand, I didn't have the time (nor inclination) to break down each individual airlines total fleet number and apply it to the final number. Would that have been more accurate? You bet. Regardless, my point was made.

Thanks for saying that my post was my first average one. I'm assuming the rest have been top notch.

AF

 

[jehtplane]

Well said Dave! Think of where we might be if the Comair pilot group had said NO! to PFT. But those guys wanted jobs so bad they would even pay for them! That's like worse than Ho Jets or something.

PFT was the norm in the 90's, it was not paying for a job, would you go to Southwest? What is the difference?

 

[pilot772]

Mid Atlantic's 70s went to CHQ. Not sure what happened to their pilots. About a month or so ago I read that they would be getting 90s. Makes you wonder what will happen to the 90s that Mesa flies for AWA.

I believe that Amerca west and Usair mainline pilots secured scope for these airplanes. (the emb-190 will be flown at mainline) Included in this agreement was the ability for upwards of 90: crj9 and emb170 to be flown by express carriers(mesa,chq, awac, etc)

 

[Dave Benjamin]

PFT was the norm in the 90's, it was not paying for a job, would you go to Southwest? What is the difference?

I suspect you were not employed in this industry in the 90's based on such a clueless post. Although PFT was prevalent there were still regionals that did not PFT. The problem was competition was pretty fierce for the jobs that weren't PFT and you didn't have the growth and hiring that we've seen in the past 5-8 years. CMR was one of the PFT pioneers. Interestingly enough Mesa, an airline everyone bashes, was never PFT. Even they wanted to have some control over the quality of new hires and chose not to participate in PFT. SKYW was not PFT. I don't think QX was either. To give you an idea of what things were like it was not uncommon for someone to hire on as a Metro FO and spend 2 or 3 years on reserve. You just didn't see the kind of movement we've seen since the "RJ revolution."

PFT is making a cash payment to an airline in exchange for a job. Training is an expense that should be handled by the employer.

Southwest is not PFT. They do not sell type ratings. They do not discriminate based on where you got your 737 type. If you worked for Pace, AWA, AS, UA or any other 737 operator and you have the type you have a chance at being hired by Southwest.

Requiring the type rating does not save Southwest money on new-hire training. It probably saves less than an hour of sim time during upgrade.

You asked if I'd go to Southwest. I'm not going to shell out 7G in hopes of an interview. I know guys that bought the type, have degrees, and excellent work histories that have not been called for an interview even though they've been updating their apps for the past few years. It's a crap shoot. If Southwest offers me an interview I'd show up. If they offered me a job I'd go out and buy the type. I'd be a fool not to. To me it's just one of the qualifications they require. It is not by any stretch of the imagination PFT.

I saw PFT come and go. Trust me I know what PFT is.

 

[LoweringTheBar]

PFT was the norm in the 90's, it was not paying for a job, would you go to Southwest? What is the difference?

How dense can some of you be? SWA is NOT PFT! They do NOT require you to pay for your federally mandated intial newhire training like the old PFT airlines did.

 

[surplus1]

The concessions stink, but the blended rates are the only real slap in the face. 90-seat aircraft for $90 an hour MAX? Thats even worse than Mesa and Chautauqua. What other regional airline has proven pilots are willing to work for one rate? Only Skywest. I'm not saying they were malicious in voting it in, I just think it illustrates how a single pilot groups "innocent" decision affects the whole regional industry.

Skywest did screw up. It is not the fact that they agreed to a common rate for different aircraft per se, it is how they went about doing it. What Skywest agreed to is not a true "blended rate". If it were a blended rate, they would have taken the higher 70-seat rate and the lower 50-seat rate and developed a single rate somewhere in between. That's a true blended rate.

What they did was lower the 70-seat rate to the 50 seat rate and on top of that, they then extended it up to 99-seats. That's a major concession, not a "blended rate". They did that based on a "promise" of a new contract with UAL (which the company already had in the bag) and another "promise" to raise the rate in 18 months. In other words the company played them for suckers all the way and they bought it. Chalk it up to lack of experience.

Regardless, that's history. However, it is not the real cause of the current Comair (and other) problems. The true cause is the rates accepted by USAirways and subsequently followed by JetBlue.

USAir pilots gave up their longevity and agreed to fly the EMB-170 for 1st yr pay of $58 (so they could get MDA). In the process they screwed themselves and everyone else. Shortly thereafter JBlue ordered the E-190 and offered a very similar rate for a larger aircraft, i.e., $71-89.

Since then, the AWA pilots have pretty much agreed to the JB rates, even though they have no such airplanes on order (and probably never will). Delta has proposed JB rate equivalents for the E-190 at mainline (which they have not ordered and probably never will).

These mainline rates and proposals are the real source of pressure on the Comair (and other regionals) pay system. While other DCI carriers may now have higher rates than those proposed at CMR, if those pilots think they will stay there they just aren't thinking. The contract rate they get from their "mainline" will force them to lower their payroll as well. It is only a matter of time. It will not be limited to DCI either. The other regionals can expect the same outcome down the road. It's not a question of IF, it's only a question of when.

With the exception of JB, the ALPA mainline carriers have done this in an effort to keep the regionals from operating the 70-seat equipment. They have failed. The AWA pilots seem to think they "won the day" by preventing their company from operating the E-190 at a regional feeder. They copied the JB rates, which the U pilots triggered, and have announced victory. That's baloney. There is no guarantee that their company will ever buy even 1 EMB-190 (just like there is no guarantee in the DL proposal) and meanwhile they have agreed to increase the "regional" jets (up to 90-seats) for a total of 93 at their "express" carriers. DL proposes 200 @ 79-seats. With those airplanes at the regionals, who needs and E-190 at the mainline? Nobody.

However, out of all that comes the pressure on Comair and everyone else to lower their 70-seat and 50-seat rates even further. A stupid move on the part of the union at USAirways has mushroomed into the JB follow up and the debacle that faces everyone else (including DL and NWA). It has not saved even one job at any mainline carrier. What it has done is play right into management's hand and triggered a bidding war for the flying. There's nothing we (at CMR) can do to change that now, it's too late. If however you want to know who to blame, the answer is the mainline carriers and their ALPA policies, not Skywest. Skywest people were just played for suckers. The mainline people knew what they were doing and they did it anyway, deliberately. Now they have to eat it, but unfortunately so do we.

Management will continue to low ball us as long as we let them and it looks like everyone is willing to let them. I'm sure you know that NWA just capitulated. DL is now the only hold out. How long do you think that will last? Do you think the DL pilots are really going to "strike" and put DL into Chapter 7? Yeah, sure; just like the NW pilots and the U pilots and the UAL pilots. Don't hold your breath.

An interesting part of the Comair proposal is the change in perdiem. Apparently DL, which offered its own pilots $1.85/hr (compared to JetBlue's $2.00) thinks that Comair pilots don't eat as much as DL pilots and has offered us $1.46. Obviously they feel that "poor people" naturally eat less than rich people. That's how those SOB's think.

More important than the actual numbers that DAL has proposed to shaft Comair pilots with, is the fact that it offers absolutely nothing in return. But it has given a "clue" at its true intent. They want to get rid of the "no furlough clause". Considering that it only applies to 1/2 of our pilots anyway, does that mean they expect to make us more than 50% smaller in the near term? Looks that way to me.

If Comair pilots decide to give Delta everything that it wants, there is absolutely no guarantee that Delta will not phase out Comair completely just as soon as it can. In the meantime, they are asking us to pay them $20 millions a year while they prepare to bury us. It's like taking a pay cut to pay for your own funeral. Once you're dead, who cares who pays the funeral expenses?

Obviously Delta management is seeking total war with Comair pilots. Either they believe it will frighten us into rolling over and begging them to scratch our bellies, or they just don't give a dam. I think it's the latter. They know they want rid of us and they've already written us off. If they can get a few more dollars while they put the plan into effect, why not?

If you're going to be killed anyway perhaps there is merit to considering taking as big a piece from the enemy as possible before your inevitable execution. What do we have to lose? Paying them while they torture us slowly will cost us $100 million dollars over 5 years to pay for our own demise. Maybe it's just as good an idea to cost them $700 million in 90 days for the murder they're about to commit?

Think about it.

 

[jehtplane]

I suspect you were not employed in this industry in the 90's based on such a clueless post. Although PFT was prevalent there were still regionals that did not PFT. The problem was competition was pretty fierce for the jobs that weren't PFT and you didn't have the growth and hiring that we've seen in the past 5-8 years. CMR was one of the PFT pioneers. Interestingly enough Mesa, an airline everyone bashes, was never PFT. Even they wanted to have some control over the quality of new hires and chose not to participate in PFT. SKYW was not PFT. I don't think QX was either. To give you an idea of what things were like it was not uncommon for someone to hire on as a Metro FO and spend 2 or 3 years on reserve. You just didn't see the kind of movement we've seen since the "RJ revolution."

PFT is making a cash payment to an airline in exchange for a job. Training is an expense that should be handled by the employer.

Southwest is not PFT. They do not sell type ratings. They do not discriminate based on where you got your 737 type. If you worked for Pace, AWA, AS, UA or any other 737 operator and you have the type you have a chance at being hired by Southwest.

Requiring the type rating does not save Southwest money on new-hire training. It probably saves less than an hour of sim time during upgrade.

You asked if I'd go to Southwest. I'm not going to shell out 7G in hopes of an interview. I know guys that bought the type, have degrees, and excellent work histories that have not been called for an interview even though they've been updating their apps for the past few years. It's a crap shoot. If Southwest offers me an interview I'd show up. If they offered me a job I'd go out and buy the type. I'd be a fool not to. To me it's just one of the qualifications they require. It is not by any stretch of the imagination PFT.

I saw PFT come and go. Trust me I know what PFT is.

Well dipshit, actually I was employed in the 90's when it was alive and well, Comair, ASA, Continental Express(Express Jet), Chicago Express, Northwest Airlink(Express airlines) just to name a few were all that way, and you are wrong in the fact that you made a cash payment to the airline that is completely untrue, you paid flightsafety directly, and if you passed the training and not everyone does then you have a conditional offer of employment, so yes it was the norm in the 90's, why is Southwest different? You must have the type in order to get an interview..So you are paying for your training and just by you saying if they offered you the job you would go out and buy the type you just contradicted yourself dumbass because that WAS WHAT PFT WAS........
And by the way my company reimbursed us 50% of our training cost after 3 years of employment payed over a 5 year period. So unless you were a PFT guy then STFU. Do some research into what you are talking about.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Sorry you whored yourself out buddy. What you did was deplorable. To try and defend it now is pretty amazing. Most people can acknowledge their mistakes and move on.

The bottom line is you offset the cost of federally required training. Whether you wrote the check to FSI or the airline makes no difference. Your employer didn't have to pay a dime for your indoc and sim training. Southwest pays all new hires an excellent wage during training regardless of whether they bought a type or have it thanks to their previous job.

A 737 type is not required by the FAA to be an FO at Southwest.

Your new hire training for the pathetic rookie FO job is and was required by the FAA for you to be employed. You worked about a year for free. And after a measly eight years you recouped half the money.

Whats really sad is you PFT'd back in the the 90's and you're still there today. Sucks to be you, doesn't it?

Give me your mailing address. I'll send you some spare change. Maybe you can go buy some respect.

Edited for clarity and accuracy.