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One Rate for Comair? Thanx SkyWest

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jehtplane said:
PFT was the norm in the 90's, it was not paying for a job, would you go to Southwest? What is the difference?

I suspect you were not employed in this industry in the 90's based on such a clueless post. Although PFT was prevalent there were still regionals that did not PFT. The problem was competition was pretty fierce for the jobs that weren't PFT and you didn't have the growth and hiring that we've seen in the past 5-8 years. CMR was one of the PFT pioneers. Interestingly enough Mesa, an airline everyone bashes, was never PFT. Even they wanted to have some control over the quality of new hires and chose not to participate in PFT. SKYW was not PFT. I don't think QX was either. To give you an idea of what things were like it was not uncommon for someone to hire on as a Metro FO and spend 2 or 3 years on reserve. You just didn't see the kind of movement we've seen since the "RJ revolution."

PFT is making a cash payment to an airline in exchange for a job. Training is an expense that should be handled by the employer.

Southwest is not PFT. They do not sell type ratings. They do not discriminate based on where you got your 737 type. If you worked for Pace, AWA, AS, UA or any other 737 operator and you have the type you have a chance at being hired by Southwest.

Requiring the type rating does not save Southwest money on new-hire training. It probably saves less than an hour of sim time during upgrade.

You asked if I'd go to Southwest. I'm not going to shell out 7G in hopes of an interview. I know guys that bought the type, have degrees, and excellent work histories that have not been called for an interview even though they've been updating their apps for the past few years. It's a crap shoot. If Southwest offers me an interview I'd show up. If they offered me a job I'd go out and buy the type. I'd be a fool not to. To me it's just one of the qualifications they require. It is not by any stretch of the imagination PFT.

I saw PFT come and go. Trust me I know what PFT is.
 
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jehtplane said:
PFT was the norm in the 90's, it was not paying for a job, would you go to Southwest? What is the difference?


How dense can some of you be? SWA is NOT PFT! They do NOT require you to pay for your federally mandated intial newhire training like the old PFT airlines did.
 
bvt1151 said:
The concessions stink, but the blended rates are the only real slap in the face. 90-seat aircraft for $90 an hour MAX? Thats even worse than Mesa and Chautauqua. What other regional airline has proven pilots are willing to work for one rate? Only Skywest. I'm not saying they were malicious in voting it in, I just think it illustrates how a single pilot groups "innocent" decision affects the whole regional industry.

Skywest did screw up. It is not the fact that they agreed to a common rate for different aircraft per se, it is how they went about doing it. What Skywest agreed to is not a true "blended rate". If it were a blended rate, they would have taken the higher 70-seat rate and the lower 50-seat rate and developed a single rate somewhere in between. That's a true blended rate.

What they did was lower the 70-seat rate to the 50 seat rate and on top of that, they then extended it up to 99-seats. That's a major concession, not a "blended rate". They did that based on a "promise" of a new contract with UAL (which the company already had in the bag) and another "promise" to raise the rate in 18 months. In other words the company played them for suckers all the way and they bought it. Chalk it up to lack of experience.

Regardless, that's history. However, it is not the real cause of the current Comair (and other) problems. The true cause is the rates accepted by USAirways and subsequently followed by JetBlue.

USAir pilots gave up their longevity and agreed to fly the EMB-170 for 1st yr pay of $58 (so they could get MDA). In the process they screwed themselves and everyone else. Shortly thereafter JBlue ordered the E-190 and offered a very similar rate for a larger aircraft, i.e., $71-89.

Since then, the AWA pilots have pretty much agreed to the JB rates, even though they have no such airplanes on order (and probably never will). Delta has proposed JB rate equivalents for the E-190 at mainline (which they have not ordered and probably never will).

These mainline rates and proposals are the real source of pressure on the Comair (and other regionals) pay system. While other DCI carriers may now have higher rates than those proposed at CMR, if those pilots think they will stay there they just aren't thinking. The contract rate they get from their "mainline" will force them to lower their payroll as well. It is only a matter of time. It will not be limited to DCI either. The other regionals can expect the same outcome down the road. It's not a question of IF, it's only a question of when.

With the exception of JB, the ALPA mainline carriers have done this in an effort to keep the regionals from operating the 70-seat equipment. They have failed. The AWA pilots seem to think they "won the day" by preventing their company from operating the E-190 at a regional feeder. They copied the JB rates, which the U pilots triggered, and have announced victory. That's baloney. There is no guarantee that their company will ever buy even 1 EMB-190 (just like there is no guarantee in the DL proposal) and meanwhile they have agreed to increase the "regional" jets (up to 90-seats) for a total of 93 at their "express" carriers. DL proposes 200 @ 79-seats. With those airplanes at the regionals, who needs and E-190 at the mainline? Nobody.

However, out of all that comes the pressure on Comair and everyone else to lower their 70-seat and 50-seat rates even further. A stupid move on the part of the union at USAirways has mushroomed into the JB follow up and the debacle that faces everyone else (including DL and NWA). It has not saved even one job at any mainline carrier. What it has done is play right into management's hand and triggered a bidding war for the flying. There's nothing we (at CMR) can do to change that now, it's too late. If however you want to know who to blame, the answer is the mainline carriers and their ALPA policies, not Skywest. Skywest people were just played for suckers. The mainline people knew what they were doing and they did it anyway, deliberately. Now they have to eat it, but unfortunately so do we.

Management will continue to low ball us as long as we let them and it looks like everyone is willing to let them. I'm sure you know that NWA just capitulated. DL is now the only hold out. How long do you think that will last? Do you think the DL pilots are really going to "strike" and put DL into Chapter 7? Yeah, sure; just like the NW pilots and the U pilots and the UAL pilots. Don't hold your breath.

An interesting part of the Comair proposal is the change in perdiem. Apparently DL, which offered its own pilots $1.85/hr (compared to JetBlue's $2.00) thinks that Comair pilots don't eat as much as DL pilots and has offered us $1.46. Obviously they feel that "poor people" naturally eat less than rich people. That's how those SOB's think.

More important than the actual numbers that DAL has proposed to shaft Comair pilots with, is the fact that it offers absolutely nothing in return. But it has given a "clue" at its true intent. They want to get rid of the "no furlough clause". Considering that it only applies to 1/2 of our pilots anyway, does that mean they expect to make us more than 50% smaller in the near term? Looks that way to me.

If Comair pilots decide to give Delta everything that it wants, there is absolutely no guarantee that Delta will not phase out Comair completely just as soon as it can. In the meantime, they are asking us to pay them $20 millions a year while they prepare to bury us. It's like taking a pay cut to pay for your own funeral. Once you're dead, who cares who pays the funeral expenses?

Obviously Delta management is seeking total war with Comair pilots. Either they believe it will frighten us into rolling over and begging them to scratch our bellies, or they just don't give a dam. I think it's the latter. They know they want rid of us and they've already written us off. If they can get a few more dollars while they put the plan into effect, why not?

If you're going to be killed anyway perhaps there is merit to considering taking as big a piece from the enemy as possible before your inevitable execution. What do we have to lose? Paying them while they torture us slowly will cost us $100 million dollars over 5 years to pay for our own demise. Maybe it's just as good an idea to cost them $700 million in 90 days for the murder they're about to commit?

Think about it.
 
Dave Benjamin said:
I suspect you were not employed in this industry in the 90's based on such a clueless post. Although PFT was prevalent there were still regionals that did not PFT. The problem was competition was pretty fierce for the jobs that weren't PFT and you didn't have the growth and hiring that we've seen in the past 5-8 years. CMR was one of the PFT pioneers. Interestingly enough Mesa, an airline everyone bashes, was never PFT. Even they wanted to have some control over the quality of new hires and chose not to participate in PFT. SKYW was not PFT. I don't think QX was either. To give you an idea of what things were like it was not uncommon for someone to hire on as a Metro FO and spend 2 or 3 years on reserve. You just didn't see the kind of movement we've seen since the "RJ revolution."

PFT is making a cash payment to an airline in exchange for a job. Training is an expense that should be handled by the employer.

Southwest is not PFT. They do not sell type ratings. They do not discriminate based on where you got your 737 type. If you worked for Pace, AWA, AS, UA or any other 737 operator and you have the type you have a chance at being hired by Southwest.

Requiring the type rating does not save Southwest money on new-hire training. It probably saves less than an hour of sim time during upgrade.

You asked if I'd go to Southwest. I'm not going to shell out 7G in hopes of an interview. I know guys that bought the type, have degrees, and excellent work histories that have not been called for an interview even though they've been updating their apps for the past few years. It's a crap shoot. If Southwest offers me an interview I'd show up. If they offered me a job I'd go out and buy the type. I'd be a fool not to. To me it's just one of the qualifications they require. It is not by any stretch of the imagination PFT.

I saw PFT come and go. Trust me I know what PFT is.




Well dipshit, actually I was employed in the 90's when it was alive and well, Comair, ASA, Continental Express(Express Jet), Chicago Express, Northwest Airlink(Express airlines) just to name a few were all that way, and you are wrong in the fact that you made a cash payment to the airline that is completely untrue, you paid flightsafety directly, and if you passed the training and not everyone does then you have a conditional offer of employment, so yes it was the norm in the 90's, why is Southwest different? You must have the type in order to get an interview..So you are paying for your training and just by you saying if they offered you the job you would go out and buy the type you just contradicted yourself dumbass because that WAS WHAT PFT WAS........
And by the way my company reimbursed us 50% of our training cost after 3 years of employment payed over a 5 year period. So unless you were a PFT guy then STFU. Do some research into what you are talking about.
 
Sorry you whored yourself out buddy. What you did was deplorable. To try and defend it now is pretty amazing. Most people can acknowledge their mistakes and move on.

The bottom line is you offset the cost of federally required training. Whether you wrote the check to FSI or the airline makes no difference. Your employer didn't have to pay a dime for your indoc and sim training. Southwest pays all new hires an excellent wage during training regardless of whether they bought a type or have it thanks to their previous job.

A 737 type is not required by the FAA to be an FO at Southwest.

Your new hire training for the pathetic rookie FO job is and was required by the FAA for you to be employed. You worked about a year for free. And after a measly eight years you recouped half the money.

Whats really sad is you PFT'd back in the the 90's and you're still there today. Sucks to be you, doesn't it?

Give me your mailing address. I'll send you some spare change. Maybe you can go buy some respect.

Edited for clarity and accuracy.
 
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Dave Benjamin said:
Sorry you whored yourself out buddy. What you did was deplorable. To try and defend it now is pretty amazing. Most people can acknowledge their mistakes and move on.

The bottom line is you offset the cost of federally required training. Whether you wrote the check to FSI or COex makes no difference. Coex didn't have to pay a dime for your indoc and sim training. Southwest pays all new hires an excellent wage during training regardless of whether they bought a type or have it thanks to their previous job.

A 737 type is not required by the FAA to be an FO at Southwest.

Your new hire training for the pathetic Coex rookie FO job is and was required by the FAA for you to be employed. You worked about a year for free. And after a measly eight years you recouped half the money. Wow I'm really impressed. Did you get to give Dresser's butt a big kiss too?
Whats really sad is you PFT'd back in the the 90's and you're still there today. Sucks to be you, doesn't it? I'm guessing no degree and the flow-thru to big Co didn't quite work out.

Give me your mailing address. I'll send you some spare change. Maybe you can go buy some respect.


What ever pal, first off I do not work for CO-EX, There is nothing deplorable about what any of us did, that is your opinion, you must think alot of the pilots you fly with or know are deplorable, but you do not sound very intelligent so they probably take it with a grain of salt, oh I forgot to mention Valujet on the above list also and I am sure there were more but that is all I can remember right now maybe Mesa did not require it, they did however have a program through San Juan College, I do not however remember the specifics. Grow up, poor management is what has caused the problems today.
I understand that you are pathetic and that is OK, don't worry you will be Ok, one day they will make a pill for ignorance until then sorry!
 
When I was growing up my parents instilled in me that if something was fundamentally wrong, immoral, or unethical that I shouldn't do it. They pointed it out that I still shouldn't do it even if many of my friends or peers were doing it. Just because many people PFT'd doesn't make it right. Look how many pilots are on the master scab list. Does that make being a scab OK? I'm not saying PFT has anything to do with scabbing. All I'm pointing out is that the same faulty logic you use to justify PFT could be used by a scab to justfiy his actions. Didn't your Mom ever say something like "just because all your friends are jumping off a cliff......" Anyhow PFT was wrong and most people that I've spoken to have some regrets about participating.

None of my FO's have PFT'd because my airline has never been a PFT airline. So I don't think any of FO's are deplorable as you suggest I might feel. In fact the vast majority of my FO's are exemplary pilots and fun to work with. Most of the FO's were either CFI's or 135 pilots.

I didn't work for Mesa but their pilot development program was not PFT. It was simply a flight school where graduates had the opportunity to interview with the airline. People went there to earn their ratings. For a while they had a pretty good program where you got your ATP in a Baron for a grand and if you passed the ride you got an interview. I never applied at Mesa or had anything to do with their academy. It was not PFT.

Nor is Southwest PFT. Let's review:

Does Southwest pay a good wage starting your first day of ground school?

Does Southwest pay for your hotel during ground school?

Does Southwest pay for ground instructors who teach indoc?

Does Southwest pay for the sims and sim instructors?

Does Southwest receive any substantial economic benefit as a result of their type rating requirement?

Does Southwest care where or how you get your 737 type?

So who is really paying for training at Southwest? The new FO or the airline?
 
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Flyer1015 said:
Mathematically speaking, the "averages" idea works so as long as both groups you speak of are roughly broken down 50/50. In another words, it would assume that there are 50% ERJ-135s and 50% ERJ-145s.

However, it is not 50/50, in fact:

30 of the -135s

236 of the -145s (by end of 2005).

Furthermore, ArcticFlier misses the fact that any XJT pilot who is a 145 captain never sees the 135 rate, even if they fly the 135. I have never ever been paid the 135 rate at my company even though I have flown the 135 many times. Only 135 captains get paid the 135 rate (when they fly the 135) and for soft time. The devil is in the details...

-Neal
 
Rogue5 said:
I did not, nor did a majority of the pilots on property at this time. SkyWest has hired almost a thousand pilots since that vote was taken, out of a total pilot group of only about 2,200. Many lessons have been learned since then. Many things have changed. The last vote overwhelmingly in the negative was hopefully only the beginning.

Best of luck to you guys in your current battle, though.

We all need it...[/quote

A vote by Skywest pilots means absolutely nothing until you vote for a union.
 
A vote by Skywest pilots means absolutely nothing until you vote for a union.
I sure am glad that we all voted not to be part of the US Air Jets-for-Jobs program. I know management really wanted that one.;)
 
Dave Benjamin said:
When I was growing up my parents instilled in me that if something was fundamentally wrong, immoral, or unethical that I shouldn't do it. They pointed it out that I still shouldn't do it even if many of my friends or peers were doing it. Just because many people PFT'd doesn't make it right. Look how many pilots are on the master scab list. Does that make being a scab OK? I'm not saying PFT has anything to do with scabbing. All I'm pointing out is that the same faulty logic you use to justify PFT could be used by a scab to justfiy his actions. Didn't your Mom ever say something like "just because all your friends are jumping off a cliff......" Anyhow PFT was wrong and most people that I've spoken to have some regrets about participating.

None of my FO's have PFT'd because my airline has never been a PFT airline. So I don't think any of FO's are deplorable as you suggest I might feel. In fact the vast majority of my FO's are exemplary pilots and fun to work with. Most of the FO's were either CFI's or 135 pilots.

I didn't work for Mesa but their pilot development program was not PFT. It was simply a flight school where graduates had the opportunity to interview with the airline. People went there to earn their ratings. For a while they had a pretty good program where you got your ATP in a Baron for a grand and if you passed the ride you got an interview. I never applied at Mesa or had anything to do with their academy. It was not PFT.

Nor is Southwest PFT. Let's review:

Does Southwest pay a good wage starting your first day of ground school?

Does Southwest pay for your hotel during ground school?

Does Southwest pay for ground instructors who teach indoc?

Does Southwest pay for the sims and sim instructors?

Does Southwest receive any substantial economic benefit as a result of their type rating requirement?

Does Southwest care where or how you get your 737 type?

So who is really paying for training at Southwest? The new FO or the airline?





disregard... not worth the effort
 
Surplus
Did you PFT? Am I to believe you like your contemporary a fellowaviator were the exceptions to the rule?
 
Dave Benjamin said:
When I was growing up my parents instilled in me that if something was fundamentally wrong, immoral, or unethical that I shouldn't do it. They pointed it out that I still shouldn't do it even if many of my friends or peers were doing it. Just because many people PFT'd doesn't make it right. Look how many pilots are on the master scab list. Does that make being a scab OK? I'm not saying PFT has anything to do with scabbing. All I'm pointing out is that the same faulty logic you use to justify PFT could be used by a scab to justfiy his actions. Didn't your Mom ever say something like "just because all your friends are jumping off a cliff......" Anyhow PFT was wrong and most people that I've spoken to have some regrets about participating.

None of my FO's have PFT'd because my airline has never been a PFT airline. So I don't think any of FO's are deplorable as you suggest I might feel. In fact the vast majority of my FO's are exemplary pilots and fun to work with. Most of the FO's were either CFI's or 135 pilots.

I didn't work for Mesa but their pilot development program was not PFT. It was simply a flight school where graduates had the opportunity to interview with the airline. People went there to earn their ratings. For a while they had a pretty good program where you got your ATP in a Baron for a grand and if you passed the ride you got an interview. I never applied at Mesa or had anything to do with their academy. It was not PFT.

Nor is Southwest PFT. Let's review:

Does Southwest pay a good wage starting your first day of ground school?

Does Southwest pay for your hotel during ground school?

Does Southwest pay for ground instructors who teach indoc?

Does Southwest pay for the sims and sim instructors?

Does Southwest receive any substantial economic benefit as a result of their type rating requirement?

Does Southwest care where or how you get your 737 type?

So who is really paying for training at Southwest? The new FO or the airline?

Dave:
All good and valid points. You are correct sir. Southwest pays you from day one. Doesn't hold your money in an escrow account. They only require a type rating. It is their preference, my only gripe is that I can't afford one being married with kids. If I could, I'd be there in a nanosecond!
Jehtplane, much like a neutered dog, doesn't get it! But just look at most of his/her posts. The kid's probably 12 years old. Big friggin surprise there!
737
 

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