One Rate for Comair? Thanx SkyWest

[jehtplane]

Sorry you whored yourself out buddy. What you did was deplorable. To try and defend it now is pretty amazing. Most people can acknowledge their mistakes and move on.

The bottom line is you offset the cost of federally required training. Whether you wrote the check to FSI or COex makes no difference. Coex didn't have to pay a dime for your indoc and sim training. Southwest pays all new hires an excellent wage during training regardless of whether they bought a type or have it thanks to their previous job.

A 737 type is not required by the FAA to be an FO at Southwest.

Your new hire training for the pathetic Coex rookie FO job is and was required by the FAA for you to be employed. You worked about a year for free. And after a measly eight years you recouped half the money. Wow I'm really impressed. Did you get to give Dresser's butt a big kiss too?
Whats really sad is you PFT'd back in the the 90's and you're still there today. Sucks to be you, doesn't it? I'm guessing no degree and the flow-thru to big Co didn't quite work out.

Give me your mailing address. I'll send you some spare change. Maybe you can go buy some respect.

What ever pal, first off I do not work for CO-EX, There is nothing deplorable about what any of us did, that is your opinion, you must think alot of the pilots you fly with or know are deplorable, but you do not sound very intelligent so they probably take it with a grain of salt, oh I forgot to mention Valujet on the above list also and I am sure there were more but that is all I can remember right now maybe Mesa did not require it, they did however have a program through San Juan College, I do not however remember the specifics. Grow up, poor management is what has caused the problems today.
I understand that you are pathetic and that is OK, don't worry you will be Ok, one day they will make a pill for ignorance until then sorry!

 

[Dave Benjamin]

When I was growing up my parents instilled in me that if something was fundamentally wrong, immoral, or unethical that I shouldn't do it. They pointed it out that I still shouldn't do it even if many of my friends or peers were doing it. Just because many people PFT'd doesn't make it right. Look how many pilots are on the master scab list. Does that make being a scab OK? I'm not saying PFT has anything to do with scabbing. All I'm pointing out is that the same faulty logic you use to justify PFT could be used by a scab to justfiy his actions. Didn't your Mom ever say something like "just because all your friends are jumping off a cliff......" Anyhow PFT was wrong and most people that I've spoken to have some regrets about participating.

None of my FO's have PFT'd because my airline has never been a PFT airline. So I don't think any of FO's are deplorable as you suggest I might feel. In fact the vast majority of my FO's are exemplary pilots and fun to work with. Most of the FO's were either CFI's or 135 pilots.

I didn't work for Mesa but their pilot development program was not PFT. It was simply a flight school where graduates had the opportunity to interview with the airline. People went there to earn their ratings. For a while they had a pretty good program where you got your ATP in a Baron for a grand and if you passed the ride you got an interview. I never applied at Mesa or had anything to do with their academy. It was not PFT.

Nor is Southwest PFT. Let's review:

Does Southwest pay a good wage starting your first day of ground school?

Does Southwest pay for your hotel during ground school?

Does Southwest pay for ground instructors who teach indoc?

Does Southwest pay for the sims and sim instructors?

Does Southwest receive any substantial economic benefit as a result of their type rating requirement?

Does Southwest care where or how you get your 737 type?

So who is really paying for training at Southwest? The new FO or the airline?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Mathematically speaking, the "averages" idea works so as long as both groups you speak of are roughly broken down 50/50. In another words, it would assume that there are 50% ERJ-135s and 50% ERJ-145s.

However, it is not 50/50, in fact:

30 of the -135s

236 of the -145s (by end of 2005).

Furthermore, ArcticFlier misses the fact that any XJT pilot who is a 145 captain never sees the 135 rate, even if they fly the 135. I have never ever been paid the 135 rate at my company even though I have flown the 135 many times. Only 135 captains get paid the 135 rate (when they fly the 135) and for soft time. The devil is in the details...

-Neal

 

[OCP]

Where is the master scab list?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Do a google search

 

[rightrudder]

I did not, nor did a majority of the pilots on property at this time. SkyWest has hired almost a thousand pilots since that vote was taken, out of a total pilot group of only about 2,200. Many lessons have been learned since then. Many things have changed. The last vote overwhelmingly in the negative was hopefully only the beginning.

Best of luck to you guys in your current battle, though.

We all need it...[/quote

A vote by Skywest pilots means absolutely nothing until you vote for a union.

 

[strega7]

A vote by Skywest pilots means absolutely nothing until you vote for a union.

I sure am glad that we all voted not to be part of the US Air Jets-for-Jobs program. I know management really wanted that one.

 

[jehtplane]

When I was growing up my parents instilled in me that if something was fundamentally wrong, immoral, or unethical that I shouldn't do it. They pointed it out that I still shouldn't do it even if many of my friends or peers were doing it. Just because many people PFT'd doesn't make it right. Look how many pilots are on the master scab list. Does that make being a scab OK? I'm not saying PFT has anything to do with scabbing. All I'm pointing out is that the same faulty logic you use to justify PFT could be used by a scab to justfiy his actions. Didn't your Mom ever say something like "just because all your friends are jumping off a cliff......" Anyhow PFT was wrong and most people that I've spoken to have some regrets about participating.

None of my FO's have PFT'd because my airline has never been a PFT airline. So I don't think any of FO's are deplorable as you suggest I might feel. In fact the vast majority of my FO's are exemplary pilots and fun to work with. Most of the FO's were either CFI's or 135 pilots.

I didn't work for Mesa but their pilot development program was not PFT. It was simply a flight school where graduates had the opportunity to interview with the airline. People went there to earn their ratings. For a while they had a pretty good program where you got your ATP in a Baron for a grand and if you passed the ride you got an interview. I never applied at Mesa or had anything to do with their academy. It was not PFT.

Nor is Southwest PFT. Let's review:

Does Southwest pay a good wage starting your first day of ground school?

Does Southwest pay for your hotel during ground school?

Does Southwest pay for ground instructors who teach indoc?

Does Southwest pay for the sims and sim instructors?

Does Southwest receive any substantial economic benefit as a result of their type rating requirement?

Does Southwest care where or how you get your 737 type?

So who is really paying for training at Southwest? The new FO or the airline?

disregard... not worth the effort

 

[Russ]

Surplus
Did you PFT? Am I to believe you like your contemporary a fellowaviator were the exceptions to the rule?

 

[737 Pylt]

When I was growing up my parents instilled in me that if something was fundamentally wrong, immoral, or unethical that I shouldn't do it. They pointed it out that I still shouldn't do it even if many of my friends or peers were doing it. Just because many people PFT'd doesn't make it right. Look how many pilots are on the master scab list. Does that make being a scab OK? I'm not saying PFT has anything to do with scabbing. All I'm pointing out is that the same faulty logic you use to justify PFT could be used by a scab to justfiy his actions. Didn't your Mom ever say something like "just because all your friends are jumping off a cliff......" Anyhow PFT was wrong and most people that I've spoken to have some regrets about participating.

None of my FO's have PFT'd because my airline has never been a PFT airline. So I don't think any of FO's are deplorable as you suggest I might feel. In fact the vast majority of my FO's are exemplary pilots and fun to work with. Most of the FO's were either CFI's or 135 pilots.

I didn't work for Mesa but their pilot development program was not PFT. It was simply a flight school where graduates had the opportunity to interview with the airline. People went there to earn their ratings. For a while they had a pretty good program where you got your ATP in a Baron for a grand and if you passed the ride you got an interview. I never applied at Mesa or had anything to do with their academy. It was not PFT.

Nor is Southwest PFT. Let's review:

Does Southwest pay a good wage starting your first day of ground school?

Does Southwest pay for your hotel during ground school?

Does Southwest pay for ground instructors who teach indoc?

Does Southwest pay for the sims and sim instructors?

Does Southwest receive any substantial economic benefit as a result of their type rating requirement?

Does Southwest care where or how you get your 737 type?

So who is really paying for training at Southwest? The new FO or the airline?

Dave:
All good and valid points. You are correct sir. Southwest pays you from day one. Doesn't hold your money in an escrow account. They only require a type rating. It is their preference, my only gripe is that I can't afford one being married with kids. If I could, I'd be there in a nanosecond!
Jehtplane, much like a neutered dog, doesn't get it! But just look at most of his/her posts. The kid's probably 12 years old. Big friggin surprise there!
737

 

[ArcticFlier]

Furthermore, ArcticFlier misses the fact that any XJT pilot who is a 145 captain never sees the 135 rate, even if they fly the 135. I have never ever been paid the 135 rate at my company even though I have flown the 135 many times. Only 135 captains get paid the 135 rate (when they fly the 135) and for soft time. The devil is in the details...

-Neal

Wouldn't know that. I don't work for XJET. All I was trying to point out was that even with our flying the 70 at 50 rates, we still have an overall higher average wage per hour than many others. If I remove the XJET 50/50 average would that make you guys feel better? Sorry I stepped on so many toes.



Grow up, poor management is what has caused the problems today.

Oh ........... stupid me...............I thought this was all the SKYW pilot's fault.




AF

 

[RocketDog]

An interesting and entertaining thread. I have a couple of points I would like to make as well:

1. I'm seeing a lot of stones thrown at the SKYW pilot group for the blended rates. As I understand it, the rate is for 50/70 seats, NOT 99 seats as has been mentioned a couple of times. I believe the 99 seat rate is part of what was recently voted down. Also, from what I've read, PSA, Mesaba F/O's, UAL, Delta, UPS, and some others I've already forgotten already have blended rates. This precedent was set decades ago by some of these carriers, so I'm not sure why SKYW is taking the blame for this, now. Someone please help me here. Also, it seems to me that a more appropriate focal point and cause of concern would be the overall lack of compensation accepted by a pilot group (reference Mesa's pay here as an obvious example).

2. PFT is a function of supply and demand, pure and simple. In the late 80's and early 90's PFT was prevalent because it made economic sense. Personally, I received a call from Comair in the early 90's and was informed that I had a job if I were to show up with a cashier's check for $10000. It was at this moment that I determined it was against my morals to ever accept a PFT job - no matter what. However, I'm sure there were literally hundreds of other pilots at that time who did not share those same morals, and consequently surrendered to PFT. Supply and demand in action, folks.

 

[jehtplane]

Dave:
All good and valid points. You are correct sir. Southwest pays you from day one. Doesn't hold your money in an escrow account. They only require a type rating. It is their preference, my only gripe is that I can't afford one being married with kids. If I could, I'd be there in a nanosecond!
Jehtplane, much like a neutered dog, doesn't get it! But just look at most of his/her posts. The kid's probably 12 years old. Big friggin surprise there!
737

Ahhh, nothing useful to say as usual, I am suprised you didn't say" It's the mainline pilots fault" again, is that your line of the week, or did your parents write something else you can pronounce. There are plenty of airlines that just recently started paying you during training, and putting you in hotels during training, escrow account? Nobody called me and said pay 10grand and you are hired. I first went through an evaluation process with Flight Safety. A psych test, Sim profile, and background checks. Then had to interview with the airline. More checks, was then offered a job conditional on passing training. No not everyone passes the interviews, Half the people I interviewed with did not, not everyone passes the Flight safety eval, some guys had to redo the sim profile, and then not everyone passes the training, 3 guys out of 11 washed out. You did not get extra sim sessions, our instructors could have cared less if we passed or not. It was not , at least at my airline, hand over 10 grand and you have a job, do I regret my decision to do it, absolutely not does that make me less of a person than you, absolutely not. Does that make me have the same logic as a scab, NO and if you think that, you are honestly a moron of the highest level. I did not cross a picket line or take somebody else's job. 737 and Dave, don't worry like I said the stupidity pills are being developed just for people like you!

 

[Bluto]

Does Southwest receive any substantial economic benefit as a result of their type rating requirement?

I'm told Southwest gets a much lower insurance rate due to the type requirement. So one could argue that they do enjoy an economic benefit. Otherwise, I'm not sure why they'd do it aside from minimizing their workload when reviewing applications (ie. culling the herd.)

I'm with you on all your other points, though. PFT was much worse than anything we see today (including SkyWest's 70-seat rates... ). Don't listen to Jehtplane, I think he may have some inferiority issues since we bought his company like a used Datsun.

737 and Dave, don't worry like I said the stupidity pills are being developed just for people like you!

Add me to this list jeht, I think your rationale is seriously flawed. Sooo...everyone else is stupid? Um...ok.

 

[ArcticFlier]

For your consideration:

CRJ 700 rates:

Horizon 115
Comair 113 (going to change)
ASA 103
Eagle 94
SKYW 93
PSA 91
Mesa 90

CRJ 200
Comair 101 (going to change)
SKYW 93
AWAC 89
PSA 84
ASA 82
Pinnacle 82
MAG 78

EMB 140/145

XJET 90
Eagle 90
EMB 140 86
CHQ 90
EMB 140 80
TSA 80
MAG 78

SKYW is middle of the pack on the 700 and top of the heap on the 200 (given the proposal regarding Comair). If we want to weight averages as someone has (rightly) suggested to get a more accurate idea of how hourly wages fare, I'd say the SKYW guys are doing okay. Again, I'm not happy about the rate structure, but we're trying to fix it given the current negotiating structure we've got.

Throw your stones elsewhere.

Grow up, poor management is what has caused the problems today.

AF

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I did not cross a picket line or take somebody else's job. 737 and Dave, don't worry like I said the stupidity pills are being developed just for people like you!

Untrue. Guys like you prevented better qualified pilots that had integrity from taking that job. Back in the PFT era I knew countless Pt 135 guys with several thousand hours, flawless work histories, and solid abilities that would have been willing to take the paycut to work at a regional but were not willing to shell out money for FAA mandated company specific training. Guys like you not only set the profession back but kept wages down. Pretty hard for the union to argue for a raise when there are guys waving $10,000 checks around just to have a shot at the job.

"Stupidity pills." Wow that's so clever. You're so creative. How come you didn't pursue comedy writing as a vocation? No surprise you're still at a regional is there?

What a f#$%'ng moron.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Wouldn't know that. I don't work for XJET. All I was trying to point out was that even with our flying the 70 at 50 rates, we still have an overall higher average wage per hour than many others. If I remove the XJET 50/50 average would that make you guys feel better? Sorry I stepped on so many toes.

Well as I said, the devil is in the details. Your analysis was flawed in many ways. Fortunately, you acknowledged part of your analysis' shortcomings. But even doing a weighted average is flawed in our case. I like debate...but I like to debate the facts.

Grow up, poor management is what has caused the problems today.

Oh ........... stupid me...............I thought this was all the SKYW pilot's fault.

Where did I say anything about this being Skywest's fault? You are pointing your venom at the wrong dude unfortunately. I think you should be careful about who you tell to "grow up" when it comes to issues like these AF.

-Neal

 

[jehtplane]

Untrue. Guys like you prevented better qualified pilots that had integrity from taking that job. Back in the PFT era I knew countless Pt 135 guys with several thousand hours, flawless work histories, and solid abilities that would have been willing to take the paycut to work at a regional but were not willing to shell out money for FAA mandated company specific training. Guys like you not only set the profession back but kept wages down. Pretty hard for the union to argue for a raise when there are guys waving $10,000 checks around just to have a shot at the job.

"Stupidity pills." Wow that's so clever. You're so creative. How come you didn't pursue comedy writing as a vocation? No surprise you're still at a regional is there?

What a f#$%'ng moron.

Whatever, you don't know me or have any idea what my qualifications were back then. Enjoy your life where you are at see ya!!!!!!

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Whatever, you don't know me or have any idea what my qualifications were back then. Enjoy your life where you are at see ya!!!!!!

Based on your profile data of 6500 TT back in April of this year (or later if you've updated it) and your exact words "PFT was the norm in the 90's", we can safely assume you were a very low time inexperienced pilot if you were indeed hired in the 90's. Since PFT was all but eliminated by 1999 it's a safe bet to figure you were one of those guys with 300-700 hours and a check from Mommy and Daddy to pay for your training.
If you did have any real experience prior to your regional job I'm sure you would have pointed it out since you went to the trouble of outlining just how challenging that PFT program at FSI was.

I am enjoying life.

And I can look myself in the mirror every morning without shame.

 

[jehtplane]

Based on your profile data of 6500 TT back in April of this year (or later if you've updated it) and your exact words "PFT was the norm in the 90's", we can safely assume you were a very low time inexperienced pilot if you were indeed hired in the 90's. Since PFT was all but eliminated by 1999 it's a safe bet to figure you were one of those guys with 300-700 hours and a check from Mommy and Daddy to pay for your training.
If you did have any real experience prior to your regional job I'm sure you would have pointed it out since you went to the trouble of outlining just how challenging that PFT program at FSI was.

I am enjoying life.

And I can look myself in the mirror every morning without shame.

Disregard, not worth it