NY Times reports Pardus/Bethune think NWA too messy

[General Lee]

What are the odds Moak would insist on a no-furlough clause?

Not that no-furlough clauses are worth the paper they're printed on.

There is no doubt he will ask for job protection. We are not in the same dire straights as we were during 9-11 when everyone stopped travelling. We also are adding INTL destinations to find revenue. Those routes need more pilots due to the longer trips. If we do merge, we will need a new contract, and I am sure he will ask for pay, job protection, and scope again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Sedona16]

i love how pilots argue incessantly over who has a right to which jobs that were created by management teams that could care less about you.

Think about how much different this WHOLE time would be if we had a national seniority list... Just think about...

Agreed! As I read "Flying the Line" (the history of a national pilot union) and all that Dave Benkie (sp?) did I think a national seniority list is the one big area he missed the boat. He did other great things though.

 

[michael707767]

Agreed! As I read "Flying the Line" (the history of a national pilot union) and all that Dave Benkie (sp?) did I think a national seniority list is the one big area he missed the boat. He did other great things though.

I agree. A national seniority list, started way back then, would have been great. Too late to even consider it now though.

 

[lowecur]

Thats an interesting point. If I was a mediator type I would probably allow the 18 as far as career expectations but leave the options off. That would put Delta at 120 wide bodies and NWA at around 80. Also there is the fact noone at the bottom of NWA's seniority list can get anywhere near the right seat of a heavy whilst Delta new hires have recently been forced into widebody seats, at least initially.

I would bet that NWA firms up some of those options per the request of their pilot group subject to DL agreeing to merge.

I think the two companies have an idea right now as to how many 787/777s they want in the fleet. Arbitration will be needed to decide some of these issues. But either way, I think the M&A far outways an option with UAL or going solo. There would have to be give and take from both groups.

imp:​

 

[Marko Ramius]

Fins(and others) seem to forget about the beyond rights that both NWA and UAL hold at Narita. They aren't transferable from entity to entity. They were never intended to be, but previously they had allowed transfers like PAA to UAL and Flying Tigers to FedEx to occur. I think they closed that loophole in some agreement during the some late 90's agreement. I think that is part of why there was never any real serious talks(lazy, fly by night analysts don't count!) about selling those routes during either carriers bankruptcy. As a result I doubt that there will be just a sale of the UAL Pacific routes and what will likely make people even madder is that UAL or NWA would probably be the suriving corporate entity even if it's Delta's management because of the names on those 5th freedom rights.

 

[Sedona16]

I would bet that NWA firms up some of those options per the request of their pilot group subject to DL agreeing to merge.

I think the two companies have an idea right now as to how many 787/777s they want in the fleet. Arbitration will be needed to decide some of these issues. But either way, I think the M&A far outways an option with UAL or going solo. There would have to be give and take from both groups.

imp:​

All I can say is if the DAL/NWA combo goes through and all the 787 options were executed, NOT as replacements but pure growth, that would produce a pilot seniority list of well over 15,000 pilots, making it the biggest (more than a thousand pilots bigger than a UAL/CAL combo) airline in the world, even if you include the 25 787's CAL has on order.

As a side note, if I were a management type I would use the lure of adding airframes immediately (more new 100 seaters...ie Airbus A318's and all these wide bodies...more 777's and 787's) to sweeten the deal. That way the jr guys and the senior guys see immediate career progression making a seniority list mergment much less threatening and harmful in the short run but beneficial in the long run. Just a thought.

The aircraft acquisition guys at Delta did say the A318 is currently their favorite 100 seater on the market today in a crew room Q and A session in SLC a couple months back.

 

[johnsonrod]

Why DAL/UAL?

ORD, DEN & SFO

That's why.

Close SLC (or make it a focus city) and CVG.

NWA would fit with CAL. Close CLE and you're set.

AMR would take some of the Asia routes they'd have to spin off to pacify the regulators (who would protest the NWAsia/Air Mic "conflict").TC

CAL has nothing on the West Coast. Clearly a UAL/CAL combo would make more sense to fill that void for CAL. Plus, they get to go home to Denver if that happens. I don't understand your logic for why NWA would be better than UAL for CAL...

 

[IronCityBlue]

How does IAD/DIA not conflict with JFK/ATL/SLC?

IAD is avation secret code for Washing DC, Dulles airport. JFK is Kennedy airport in New York City, which is a VASTLY different market than DC. Slightly confusing the matter, however, is the fact that there are many flights between JFK and DC. But there are, nevertheless, completely different markets.

ATL is Atlanta. While I can see the confusion, believe it or not, it really is a different market than SLC, IAD and DIA.

Seriouslly though, DIA/SLC may be the most significant redundancy. The others I wouldn't worry about. If a DAL/NWA merger goes though, tribal wisdom says close CVG, as DTW is immortal for NWA. But CVG is the highest yield hub in the country. DAL won't want to give that up, yet it makes no sense to operate dual hubs less than an hour away from one another. Then again, USAir did it for decades.

 

[johnsonrod]

IAD is avation secret code for Washing DC, Dulles airport. JFK is Kennedy airport in New York City, which is a VASTLY different market than DC. Slightly confusing the matter, however, is the fact that there are many flights between JFK and DC. But there are, nevertheless, completely different markets.

ATL is Atlanta. While I can see the confusion, believe it or not, it really is a different market than SLC, IAD and DIA.

Seriouslly though, DIA/SLC may be the most significant redundancy. The others I wouldn't worry about. If a DAL/NWA merger goes though, tribal wisdom says close CVG, as DTW is immortal for NWA. But CVG is the highest yield hub in the country. DAL won't want to give that up, yet it makes no sense to operate dual hubs less than an hour away from one another. Then again, USAir did it for decades.

DTW and MSP have always worked for NWA. You can fly 747-400s out of both to Asia - especially to NRT from DTW for the auto industry.. CVG has no link to Asia but some Europe for Delta. I would agree that CVG would be the weak link if Delta and NWA were to merge.

Given that NWA would bring a strong Asian network and relatively non-overlapping hubs for Delta, I can't possibly see why others feel UAL is the better fit. No way. Like others have said, Delta's CEO is former NWA - he knows that operation like the back of his hand. UAL is lethargic and although it offers a good Asian network, it has redundant hubs in LAX and JFK. Why add DEN when you already have a strong SLC hub? I would think CAL would really value UAL's strong West Coast presence since it has no West Coast presence whatsoever... Plus, I am betting the CAL pilots would love to return to Denver...

Delta + UAL makes no sense to me when NWA is also targeted...

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Sure are a lot of "Experts" around here!