NY Times reports Pardus/Bethune think NWA too messy

[jksflyguy]

!!!!!!!

Hi All--

First off, nice post AA717driver. Its true that all we say here is just pure opinion and speculation. And yes, we are all entitled to our own.

I would like to know, however, why everyone wants to see UAL (of which I am a part of as a 9 yr. 320 f/o) outright fail or be pieced out. Is it for your own airlines gain? Your own seat advancement? Or is it that you are the most astute aviation analyst known to man. Personally, I don't want anyone to lose their job for my personal gain. Call it empathy (I was part of the UAL furloughs), call it whatever you want. It is not in my personal DNA to wish the demise or speculate there of another to advance my personal agenda. I spent 3 1/2 years at F9 and chose to come back to UAL. I don't need to see the flaming wreckage of F9 to validate my decision. Call it naive, but that is what I believe.

I wish all of us, even General Lee, success in negotiating with the crooks we all call management.

We are all Pilots on this board. Lets not sling arrows or disparage other pilot groups for our own personal entertainment.

I'm sure this post will be met with flaming, pointed and disparaging remarks. I hope I am wrong.

Fly Safe--

Jeff

Current UAL F/O
Former F9 F/O
Former ANG C-130 Pilot

 

[IronCityBlue]

I don't see any reason for anyone to flame what you just said. Of course, someone will probably try. Anyway well said.

 

[pipe]

Hi All--

First off, nice post AA717driver. Its true that all we say here is just pure opinion and speculation. And yes, we are all entitled to our own.

I would like to know, however, why everyone wants to see UAL (of which I am a part of as a 9 yr. 320 f/o) outright fail or be pieced out. Is it for your own airlines gain? Your own seat advancement? Or is it that you are the most astute aviation analyst known to man. Personally, I don't want anyone to lose their job for my personal gain. Call it empathy (I was part of the UAL furloughs), call it whatever you want. It is not in my personal DNA to wish the demise or speculate there of another to advance my personal agenda. I spent 3 1/2 years at F9 and chose to come back to UAL. I don't need to see the flaming wreckage of F9 to validate my decision. Call it naive, but that is what I believe.

I wish all of us, even General Lee, success in negotiating with the crooks we all call management.

We are all Pilots on this board. Lets not sling arrows or disparage other pilot groups for our own personal entertainment.

I'm sure this post will be met with flaming, pointed and disparaging remarks. I hope I am wrong.

Fly Safe--

Jeff

Current UAL F/O
Former F9 F/O
Former ANG C-130 Pilot

BEST POST ALL YEAR.

PIPE

 

[pipe]

Hi All--

First off, nice post AA717driver. Its true that all we say here is just pure opinion and speculation. And yes, we are all entitled to our own.

I would like to know, however, why everyone wants to see UAL (of which I am a part of as a 9 yr. 320 f/o) outright fail or be pieced out. Is it for your own airlines gain? Your own seat advancement? Or is it that you are the most astute aviation analyst known to man. Personally, I don't want anyone to lose their job for my personal gain. Call it empathy (I was part of the UAL furloughs), call it whatever you want. It is not in my personal DNA to wish the demise or speculate there of another to advance my personal agenda. I spent 3 1/2 years at F9 and chose to come back to UAL. I don't need to see the flaming wreckage of F9 to validate my decision. Call it naive, but that is what I believe.

I wish all of us, even General Lee, success in negotiating with the crooks we all call management.

We are all Pilots on this board. Lets not sling arrows or disparage other pilot groups for our own personal entertainment.

I'm sure this post will be met with flaming, pointed and disparaging remarks. I hope I am wrong.

Fly Safe--

Jeff

Current UAL F/O
Former F9 F/O
Former ANG C-130 Pilot

BEST POST ALL YEAR.

PIPE

 

[General Lee]

You're right about the opinion thing. Its fine (and fun) to hash out all the different viewpoints we all have. Then when someone is right (and eventually someone is, simply by default) they (myself included) then like to brag about how wise they were for having seen it all along. :laugh:

But I woun't credit Moak for the botched USAir merger attempt. That was thwarted by Grinstein and the Delta BOD convincing their creditors that they would be better off due to stand alone potential. They were wrong (from a purely near term financial standpoint) but I think its better off for everyone (except the fund dorks who like to play with airplanes at the expense of our careers) because a DAL/USAir would not have been the best long term deal. Except maybe to Parker.

Actually, Moak did more than you think, and actually pushed Grinstein to action. We organized most of the initial action, and showed up in force when it counted. We weren't in the board room, but we were in the Senate and House comittee meetings, speaking our minds. It was heard. Ask Parker about the 50 Delta uniformed pilots in the backround during his testimony to the Senate Aviation comittee. Moak and others also worked the politicians better than Parker and company. Just recently Anderson was asked during a Thanksgiving testimony hearing covering possible holiday delays if he was going to merge with anyone. (asked by a Georgia Congressmen who used to work for Delta). He denied talking to anyone, and was then told by this Congressman that he didn't want Delta to ever leave the SE. I am sure this Congressman could be reached again by us if we need him to ask more questions. You see, the hedge fund people can want anything they want, but the local politicians will be there for their constituents. Just like Oberstar will be there for NWA in MSP.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Hi All--

First off, nice post AA717driver. Its true that all we say here is just pure opinion and speculation. And yes, we are all entitled to our own.

I would like to know, however, why everyone wants to see UAL (of which I am a part of as a 9 yr. 320 f/o) outright fail or be pieced out. Is it for your own airlines gain? Your own seat advancement? Or is it that you are the most astute aviation analyst known to man. Personally, I don't want anyone to lose their job for my personal gain. Call it empathy (I was part of the UAL furloughs), call it whatever you want. It is not in my personal DNA to wish the demise or speculate there of another to advance my personal agenda. I spent 3 1/2 years at F9 and chose to come back to UAL. I don't need to see the flaming wreckage of F9 to validate my decision. Call it naive, but that is what I believe.

I wish all of us, even General Lee, success in negotiating with the crooks we all call management.

We are all Pilots on this board. Lets not sling arrows or disparage other pilot groups for our own personal entertainment.

I'm sure this post will be met with flaming, pointed and disparaging remarks. I hope I am wrong.

Fly Safe--

Jeff

Current UAL F/O
Former F9 F/O
Former ANG C-130 Pilot

I have plenty of friends at UAL, and I don't want to see them affected in a bad way. But, I don't think UAL and DL would be a good combo. There is too much overlap, and Bafoon and others are in it for the money only. If there has to be a merger, I, along with most analysts, think it will be with NWA. I hope it is with NWA if there has to be one. I think it is a better fit. No offense. Maybe CAL and UAL would be a better fit for you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[IronCityBlue]

I agree that Moak is a good leader. I still don't think he was as influential as you're giving him credit for, simply because based on the BOD's disposition of superior shareholder value if the merger did not occur it was a very tough sell. In the end it was the creditors who said no, and I don't believe too many of them were to worried about Moak or the rest of the Delta pilots. Not only that, it would have been an incredibly redundant network on the east coast that would have had a very difficult time getting aprooved.

Conversely, I think the constant saber ratteling this time around by Moak and the DAL MEC might actually have a measurable effect. UAL stock is under the influence of "labor unrest" and the UAL pilots haven't even began a summer of love II to any significant extent yet. If you read between the lines, Moak is saying "if you screw us, especially unilaterally, we are prepared to take this ship down in the process" and that might get the attention of some powers that be. I didn't get that vibe from anything he said during the USAir scenario. This time he's speaking much more strongly and much more often about it.

 

[FDJ2]

We have recently returned furloughed pilots now holding NYC MD88 Captain. How would that work?


Bye Bye--General Lee

General, I would assume they would not go so much by the seniority of the most junior pilot in the cartegory, but rather by the number of pilots in each category.

An example would be, DAL has 1,700 wide bodied captains positions and brand X has 1000, so you slot the first 2,700 numbers on the new list based on 1,700 for DAL, 1,000 for brand X. Next move to the number of narrow bodied captains and start slotting. Do the same for F/Os and so on. That at least is the theorey.

Not that it will necessarily happen that way, but at least that's the theorey.

 

[FDJ2]

I agree that Moak is a good leader. I still don't think he was as influential as you're giving him credit for, simply because based on the BOD's disposition of superior shareholder value if the merger did not occur it was a very tough sell. In the end it was the creditors who said no, and I don't believe too many of them were to worried about Moak or the rest of the Delta pilots.

The three largest creditors were Boeing, the PBGC and the Delta pilots. I think the Delta pilots had a very big voice in the outcome.

There were many layers to LCC's hostile take over defeat.

One was the hostile nature of it to begin with, two was the employee reaction, three was the political reaction. The combination of all three doomed the takeover.

I was one of the DAL pilots in the Senate hearing room during the hearings. DALPA's legislative affairs Chairman and Vice Chairman along with other Delta pilots had been working the halls of the Senate well in advance of the hearings.

When Parker entered the hearing room he was like a man all alone. The senators riddled him with question right out of the DALPA talking points and Parker looked like a deer in the head lights at that point. Grinstein, who had at one time in his career worked as the chief council for the senate committee, looked as if he was having bar b. q. with his old firends from the committee. You could see the wind come out of Parkers sail as one senator stated something to the effect that although wallstreet might like the deal, wallstreet doesn't make public policy.

The room was filled with Delta employees and uniformed Delta pilots. All Parker had was one lawyer and one LCC pilot, in a bomber jacket (no hat), by his side.

The remaining creditors soon lost interest with Parker and his take over attempt.

The original deal had a high dollar value, but don't forget, much of it was based on stock value after bankruptcy exit. If the deal had gone through, what would have actually been the value of the offer? Certainly not what was quoted at the time. If most of the creditors were smart, they presold their claim and walked away quite happy with cash in hand. Had they gone along with Parker, they still wouldn't have been paid since DAL would certainly still be in BK while Parker fumbled with his current botched merger with AAA and continued to "synergize" DAL. If you think LCC is a mess today, it doesn't get any prettier if you would add DAL still wallowing in bankruptcy to the mix.

 

[FDJ2]

If you read between the lines, Moak is saying "if you screw us, especially unilaterally, we are prepared to take this ship down in the process" and that might get the attention of some powers that be. I didn't get that vibe from anything he said during the USAir scenario. This time he's speaking much more strongly and much more often about it.

Actually, Moak was speaking about it quite loudly and quite often during the hostile take over attempt. DALPA's anti takeover effort kicked off with a rally at the Georgia Convention Center attended by two US Senators, several Congressmen and congressional delegations, local Georgia politicians and 3,000 employees. It picked up steam from there.

DALPA is spooled up this time as well. The infrastructure to either put up a fight or lend it support is now in place. We're well financed, organized and ready for any eventuallity. The pilots are tuned in and supportive of their MEC. We're just waiting to see if this is a deal we can lend support to, or not.