NY Times reports Pardus/Bethune think NWA too messy

[General Lee]

I wouldn't expect a percentage either. It will be relative seniority, widebody captains integrated with wide body captains, narrowbody captains with narrowbody captains, and so on. There will be some adjustments to that to account for retirements, aircraft orders, etc, but I don't think it would stray far from that.

We have recently returned furloughed pilots now holding NYC MD88 Captain. How would that work?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FixNFly]

So with either of the scenarios (DL/UAUA or DL/NWA) would it be furlough or stop hiring? My guess is the hiring would stop for at least a year.

 

[General Lee]

So with either of the scenarios (DL/UAUA or DL/NWA) would it be furlough or stop hiring? My guess is the hiring would stop for at least a year.

We are budgeted to hire 600 more this year, and the number was going to go into the 700s if we had gotten the MD90s. I think we are still short in NYC for the INTL stuff, and those routes are not covered by NWA or UAL. I don't see furloughing, as long as we merge with NWA. We are still short on pilots, and I think the NWA side is hiring too. Maybe there would be a reduction in hiring a bit until we know what the result would be, but we still have to cover those flights for the Summer. Again, maybe a slow down in hiring I would think.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

We have recently returned furloughed pilots now holding NYC MD88 Captain. How would that work?

well, obviously you don't re-order your own list, so it's not like a 2000 hire with a captain bid moves up, nor does a 91 hire flying 767 FO move down. But, you can look at it and say generally the 88 captains at Delta go from number x to number y, so you order the new list so that x-y end up roughly with the captains of an equivalent airplane from the new company. I don't care when our junior captain was hired. Consequently I think that person should end up approximately on the list to where he/she can still be the bottom narrowbody captain.

Every list has it's anamolies. The very junior person who got a captain bid and the super senior person still flying 767 FO so they can be number one in their category. So I still think you can go pretty much by equipment.

It really would not be much of a player in either a NW or UAL merger, since the ratio of widebody to narrowbody is pretty much the same. So a straight percentage in these sitiations would probably not be far off. But in a case like USAir and AWA, I think it reasonable that the USAir widebody captains go to the top of the list since AWA had on widebodies.

 

[Sedona16]

well, obviously you don't re-order your own list, so it's not like a 2000 hire with a captain bid moves up, nor does a 91 hire flying 767 FO move down. But, you can look at it and say generally the 88 captains at Delta go from number x to number y, so you order the new list so that x-y end up roughly with the captains of an equivalent airplane from the new company. I don't care when our junior captain was hired. Consequently I think that person should end up approximately on the list to where he/she can still be the bottom narrowbody captain.

Every list has it's anamolies. The very junior person who got a captain bid and the super senior person still flying 767 FO so they can be number one in their category. So I still think you can go pretty much by equipment.

It really would not be much of a player in either a NW or UAL merger, since the ratio of widebody to narrowbody is pretty much the same. So a straight percentage in these sitiations would probably not be far off. But in a case like USAir and AWA, I think it reasonable that the USAir widebody captains go to the top of the list since AWA had on widebodies.

Actually Delta has quite a few more wide bodies (not just talking about the flight attendants) than does NWA. NWA, including the rope start 747's on the freight side has roughly 60 wide bodies whereas Delta has roughly 115 to 120 when you factor in the 777's coming on board. So Delta has almost twice as many wide bodies and a good handfull of new hires flying some of these wide bodies. NWA slants much more heavily toward small jet (under 100 seats) on their seniority list. Delta has nothing comparable to the DC9's seating wise. I dont know if this will play into seniority lists mergment or not but certainly worth noting.

 

[lowecur]

Actually Delta has quite a few more wide bodies (not just talking about the flight attendants) than does NWA. NWA, including the rope start 747's on the freight side has roughly 60 wide bodies whereas Delta has roughly 115 to 120 when you factor in the 777's coming on board. So Delta has almost twice as many wide bodies and a good handfull of new hires flying some of these wide bodies. NWA slants much more heavily toward small jet (under 100 seats) on their seniority list. Delta has nothing comparable to the DC9's seating wise. I dont know if this will play into seniority lists mergment or not but certainly worth noting.

You're forgetting that NWA has ordered 18 787 w/options for 50 more. They will probably retire some of the 744's as they come on board. So I think who ever is available to upgrade to those 787s would have to be included.

imp:​

 

[waveflyer]

i love how pilots argue incessantly over who has a right to which jobs that were created by management teams that could care less about you.

Think about how much different this WHOLE time would be if we had a national seniority list... Just think about...

 

[GogglesPisano]

What are the odds Moak would insist on a no-furlough clause?

Not that no-furlough clauses are worth the paper they're printed on.

 

[General Lee]

You're forgetting that NWA has ordered 18 787 w/options for 50 more. They will probably retire some of the 744's as they come on board. So I think who ever is available to upgrade to those 787s would have to be included.

imp:​

NWA will be retiring almost all of their 742s (no more in PAX service and only 10-15 in ANC for cargo), and may replace them with the 744s. The 787s are smaller than the 777LRs we are getting, and we could get just as many 777s as they are getting 787s. We have twice the amount of 757s as they have, and three times the amount of 767s as they have A330s. We are a bigger airline by far, but they do beat us on 100 seaters (DC9s)! Hey, if we merge with them, we will have a great fleet regardless. And, it looks like Delta will have 747s again in the near future. Wow. (please let them have red tails and not blue)


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Sedona16]

You're forgetting that NWA has ordered 18 787 w/options for 50 more. They will probably retire some of the 744's as they come on board. So I think who ever is available to upgrade to those 787s would have to be included.

imp:​

Thats an interesting point. If I was a mediator type I would probably allow the 18 as far as career expectations but leave the options off. That would put Delta at 120 wide bodies and NWA at around 80. Also there is the fact noone at the bottom of NWA's seniority list can get anywhere near the right seat of a heavy whilst Delta new hires have recently been forced into widebody seats, at least initially.

 

[General Lee]

What are the odds Moak would insist on a no-furlough clause?

Not that no-furlough clauses are worth the paper they're printed on.

There is no doubt he will ask for job protection. We are not in the same dire straights as we were during 9-11 when everyone stopped travelling. We also are adding INTL destinations to find revenue. Those routes need more pilots due to the longer trips. If we do merge, we will need a new contract, and I am sure he will ask for pay, job protection, and scope again.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Sedona16]

i love how pilots argue incessantly over who has a right to which jobs that were created by management teams that could care less about you.

Think about how much different this WHOLE time would be if we had a national seniority list... Just think about...

Agreed! As I read "Flying the Line" (the history of a national pilot union) and all that Dave Benkie (sp?) did I think a national seniority list is the one big area he missed the boat. He did other great things though.

 

[michael707767]

Agreed! As I read "Flying the Line" (the history of a national pilot union) and all that Dave Benkie (sp?) did I think a national seniority list is the one big area he missed the boat. He did other great things though.

I agree. A national seniority list, started way back then, would have been great. Too late to even consider it now though.

 

[lowecur]

Thats an interesting point. If I was a mediator type I would probably allow the 18 as far as career expectations but leave the options off. That would put Delta at 120 wide bodies and NWA at around 80. Also there is the fact noone at the bottom of NWA's seniority list can get anywhere near the right seat of a heavy whilst Delta new hires have recently been forced into widebody seats, at least initially.

I would bet that NWA firms up some of those options per the request of their pilot group subject to DL agreeing to merge.

I think the two companies have an idea right now as to how many 787/777s they want in the fleet. Arbitration will be needed to decide some of these issues. But either way, I think the M&A far outways an option with UAL or going solo. There would have to be give and take from both groups.

imp:​

 

[Marko Ramius]

Fins(and others) seem to forget about the beyond rights that both NWA and UAL hold at Narita. They aren't transferable from entity to entity. They were never intended to be, but previously they had allowed transfers like PAA to UAL and Flying Tigers to FedEx to occur. I think they closed that loophole in some agreement during the some late 90's agreement. I think that is part of why there was never any real serious talks(lazy, fly by night analysts don't count!) about selling those routes during either carriers bankruptcy. As a result I doubt that there will be just a sale of the UAL Pacific routes and what will likely make people even madder is that UAL or NWA would probably be the suriving corporate entity even if it's Delta's management because of the names on those 5th freedom rights.