NWA wants DOH

[dragon]

I understand DAL's "Stovepipe" approach but I do not agree with it's application.

On 01/01/2009, pay for the MD-80 will be $72.24 and for the DC-9 $71.73 (for a second year pilot).

To place 500 or so NWA pilots at the bottom over a .51 cent difference in pay doesn't make sense.

I don't know what the deal is with DAL 737 (200/300), do you have any? The 200 and 300 pay THE SAME as a DC-9! How does that fit in your "stovepipe?"

Just my opinion....

We don't have any 200 or 300 737s. We have the 800 and 700 (the few not being held hostage by the Boeing strike).

 

[Fly4hire]

It goes by pay. 747-400 is equivalent to the 777. DC-9 is at the bottom because it pays the least.

So does that mean later on in future contracts everyone's seniority number will be adjusted based on pay differences on different equipment? In case you didn't read the pay issue is a wash when factored for cost benefits of contractual quids on our side.

 

[GogglesPisano]

So does that mean later on in future contracts everyone's seniority number will be adjusted by based on pay differences on different equipment? In case you didn't read the pay issue is a wash when factored for cost benefits of contractual quids on our side.

Of course not. This is about who brings what to the table. Delta's proposal is based on assigning seniority based on what each pilot's airline brings to the table with regards to pay. This is for seniority list integration purposes. An individual pilot doesn't get a better number by virtue of what seat he is currently occupying, but on what seats (payrates) his airline brings to the table.

Granted, this doesn't take into effect retirements at either airline, or DOH.

But you knew that already.

Regardless, we'll know next month. Until then arguing about it here is pointless. I'm just try to correct another poster's misunderstanding of DAL's proposal.

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot92,

Honest question how does it not represent the stovepipe method? If I understand the stovepipe method it just puts the people in the senior most position they can hold. Since Delta doesn't have anything the same size as the DC9 where do you think it would go?

Well for one they said they wanted to do it by pay and relative position. The last DAL pilot hired is 500+ numbers senior to the last NWA hire. That is nowhere close to relative position and also the 747 SO position was put at the bottom also, even though it pays more than most of the Narrowbodies. They didnt put all the NWA guys at the top because the pay and size of the 747 is the biggest so why is ok on the bottom but not on top? I know why DALPA did that but it just goes to show it isnt a "fair" list. My point is there are problems with both sides proposals and that was confirmed by the arbitrators also.

Had the DAL list kept people closer to relative position instead of favoring ALL DAL pilots and hurting ALL NWA pilots it might have been more "fair". Stapling 10% of a pilot group and giving the rest of the pilot group a negative 1-6% cut in seniority is not "fair".

We are going to find out soon what the 3 wise men think fair is in a few weeks.

SIde notes, DCC bets - My bet is for around election day.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Very close Super. Very....

 

[FDJ2]

In case you didn't read the pay issue is a wash when factored for cost benefits of contractual quids on our side.

I read the nice piece of discreditted fiction presented by NALPA at the hearings concerning compensation. Is that what you are referring too?

 

[FDJ2]

Well for one they said they wanted to do it by pay and relative position.

It's done by comparable category and status. If it was done by comparable pay all DAL 777 and 767-400 captains would be senior to all NWA pilots, 737-800 pilots senior to NWA 757 pilots, MD-88 pilots senior to A320/19 and DC-9 pilots. We didn't do that.

The last DAL pilot hired is 500+ numbers senior to the last NWA hire. That is nowhere close to relative position and also the 747 SO position was put at the bottom also, even though it pays more than most of the Narrowbodies.

In the DAL proposal the second officer position was integrated with large gauge domestic first officers in 767s and 757s.

They didnt put all the NWA guys at the top because the pay and size of the 747 is the biggest so why is ok on the bottom but not on top?

The 747s pay less than 767-400s and 777s. Nevertheless, they received equal value and both the NWA and DAL "super premium" flying was treated equally.

I understand the concern over a large number of NWA pilots being placed on the bottom of the list. In our opinion the equity value of a DC-9 position is not the same as that of an MD-88. I'm sure you and others might have a different opinion. That's fine, if we agreed on everything we wouldn't be in arbitration.

From the transcripts:

"We saw information presented about the markets that the aircraft had been used in, the way that the DC-9 is used and the tremendous similarity between it and the76-seater. They are basically interchangeablein Northwest usage right now and that is the fair and equitable place for them to be."

"The job that's attributable to these pilot's positions, I'm not speaking towards individuals at all here but the positions these pilots are bringing over is that type of a job. It's either a possible Embraer job at Compass or it's a 77 to110-seater at a markedly lower pay rate and with lesser work rules."

 

[Fly4hire]

I read the nice piece of discreditted fiction presented by NALPA at the hearings concerning compensation. Is that what you are referring too?

Purely your opinion and that of your counsel. That does not a judgment make. Others seem to read it quite differently. I hope the negotiators and merger teams are more realistic and pragmatic than your Ministry of Information posts here. I'm perfectly happy taking my chances with the arbitrators - are you?

 

[NuGuy]

Purely your opinion and that of your counsel. That does not a judgment make. Others seem to read it quite differently. I hope the negotiators and merger teams are more realistic and pragmatic than your Ministry of Information posts here. I'm perfectly happy taking my chances with the arbitrators - are you?

Heyas F4H,

They got a clip of FDJ at the latest pilot meeting in ATL.

Ministry of Information, indeed. Heh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ntbfVQvHt8

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

Purely your opinion and that of your counsel. That does not a judgment make. Others seem to read it quite differently. I hope the negotiators and merger teams are more realistic and pragmatic than your Ministry of Information posts here. I'm perfectly happy taking my chances with the arbitrators - are you?

I'm comfortable with the arbitration process and the fact that the the arbitrators see right through the smoke and mirrors presented by NALPA. The average DAL pilot gets 84 hours of pay/month, NALPA knows that as a fact, but chooses to paint a different picture in arbitration. Of course facts don't play well with the NWA MEC, facts weaken their case.

What the NWA MEC doesn't want the arbitrators to see:

NWA Hotline: [FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic]
Tuesday, September 30, 2008
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

Pay Rumor: NWA vs. DAL​

[/FONT][/FONT]

It has been brought to the attention of the NWA MEC leadership that some pilots believe that when we go
to the DAL pay and work rules, pay raises will be a wash. The foundation of this belief is that we will get a pay raise followed by less working hours. This is a rumor.

This incorrect statement computes pay based on our NWA monthly max to DAL Average Line Value
(ALV), as if ALV was the max for the month. This is not the case. The ALV is the average. To get the max for the month, 7.5 hours would need to be added to the monthly ALV (see chart below). In addition, last year the average pay for DAL pilots was round 84 hours per month; making it possible to get more hours of pay under the DAL system vs. the current NWA pay system.

Naturally, given the choice of providing the arbitrators with factual information concerning DAL pay, the NWA MEC chose to present incorrect and misleading information.​

 

[Fly4hire]

FDJ2, The cases have been made, nothing has been decided, we are still negotiating, but you parade around here absolutely trashing NALPA and stating with certainty it will be absolutely in your favor and of course the arbitrators will see "your" arguments as the True Way. I'm glad you have convinced yourself.

 

[michael707767]

Had the DAL list kept people closer to relative position instead of favoring ALL DAL pilots and hurting ALL NWA pilots it might have been more "fair". Stapling 10% of a pilot group and giving the rest of the pilot group a negative 1-6% cut in seniority is not "fair".

I won't even argue with you about the DAL proposal. But, do you really think DOH is even close to fair?

 

[Superpilot92]

I won't even argue with you about the DAL proposal. But, do you really think DOH is even close to fair?

I am not saying either side is "fair". Thats all in the eye of the beholder. However the 10 year fence makes DOH more fair imho. Those NWA pilots in front of the DAL pilots will be gone by the fence comes down and in the meantime the DAL positions and protections wont be lost. Also after 10 years the majority of the top of the list will be DAL pilots.

Again its not perfect but it doesnt negatively effect a large percentage of either pilot group over an entire career like the DAL staple and negative 1-6% hit that ALL NWA pilots get hit with under the DAL proposal. At least under the NWA proposal it eventually evens out and no body takes a career loss in seniority like the 10% staple job.


We'll see :beer:

 

[NuGuy]

I'm comfortable with the arbitration process and the fact that the the arbitrators see right through the smoke and mirrors presented by NALPA. The average DAL pilot gets 84 hours of pay/month, NALPA knows that as a fact, but chooses to paint a different picture in arbitration. Of course facts don't play well with the NWA MEC, facts weaken their case.

What the NWA MEC doesn't want the arbitrators to see:

NWA Hotline: [FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic]Tuesday, September 30, 2008[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Pay Rumor: NWA vs. DAL[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[/FONT]It has been brought to the attention of the NWA MEC leadership that some pilots believe that when we go
to the DAL pay and work rules, pay raises will be a wash. The foundation of this belief is that we will get a pay raise followed by less working hours. This is a rumor.​

This incorrect statement computes pay based on our NWA monthly max to DAL Average Line Value
(ALV), as if ALV was the max for the month. This is not the case. The ALV is the average. To get the max for the month, 7.5 hours would need to be added to the monthly ALV (see chart below). In addition, last year the average pay for DAL pilots was round 84 hours per month; making it possible to get more hours of pay under the DAL system vs. the current NWA pay system.​

Naturally, given the choice of providing the arbitrators with factual information concerning DAL pay, the NWA MEC chose to present incorrect and misleading information.​

FDJ,

Your spin continues.

From one day AFTER the above was published:

October 1st, 2008

Yesterday’s Hotline contained a piece comparing flight hours under the Northwest contract to the Delta contract. Unfortunately, this item contained factual inaccuracies and has been pulled from the Hotline. We will provide our pilots with information on this subject in the future.

If you're going to spin something, at least use the most up to date version.

Nu

 

[Scope out RJ's]

FDJ,

Your spin continues.

From one day AFTER the above was published:

October 1st, 2008

Yesterday’s Hotline contained a piece comparing flight hours under the Northwest contract to the Delta contract. Unfortunately, this item contained factual inaccuracies and has been pulled from the Hotline. We will provide our pilots with information on this subject in the future.

If you're going to spin something, at least use the most up to date version.

Nu

Nu:
You guys are priceless! Can't your side ever get anything right? I guess after 22 years of infighting and 26 arbitrations, probably not.
But at least you can hold on to the fact that you got your duble super delux awsome premium totally rad wide body flying!:laugh: