NWA wants DOH

[skystud25]

So? Where does that make them sit on DAL's current list? Bottom 3% or less?

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

And if those airplane/base positions existed at NWA, where do you think they'd be on the seniority list? Exactly, senior to all of the 9 and small Airbus positions except for those persons who wanted to live in domicile in one of your frozen, crappy junior bases. It seems what you're asking for is a current junior NWA pilot, on a list for years but probably on furlough and actually on property flying for only a few years, to get Delta widebody flying out of a Delta base, the large pay and benefit increases, and immediate furlough protection at the expense of junior Delta pilots. Seems like a windfall to me, but of course I'm partial.

 

[DTW320]

A

ll the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).

NWA A320's seat 148 . Check your numbers.
DAL MD88 = 142 seats
MD90 = 150 seats.

 

[Superpilot92]

Everyone at NWA doesn't bid the most senior equipment they can hold..nor do they at DAL.

The reason the DAL proposal worked out the way it did was due to "stovepipe" which assumed everyone bid the most senior equipment possible. All the nwa dc-9 and 747 SO positions went below our list..since they would be considered junior to the md-88- which is bigger than the 319 (only 3 seats smaller than the 320..the md-90 is 7 seats bigger than the 320).


That is the answer to your question.

Why are the number 7 and 8 guys on your list on the 757? Does the quality of life stink so bad on whale and megapoodle?

Problem with that argument is that 10% of the NWA list being stapled doesnt represent the "stovepipe" method. So even though there are a number of other problems with the DAL list proposal, the above isnt even a "fair" stovepipe. Btw the SO position pays more than the narrowbody equipment.

Both sides proposals have their own issues and thats exactly why its in arbitration. Whats "fair" to your side may not and likely isnt "fair" to our side and vice versa.

The end is near!!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

So? Where does that make them sit on DAL's current list? Bottom 3% or less?

P.S. responded too soon to quote your 330 block holder question but I know what you're getting at, they're senior. So??? It's a senior position at NWA for a reason, 767er is junior at DAL for a reason as well.

MJ- my quote in regards to the #7 and 8 guys on your list was mocking this quote. The 767ER goes junior at DL for people bidding what they want to bid for goodness knows how many reasons. I get my number 1 or 2 choice every month for reserve. It's nice just looking through what I want and picking it. You can't beat living in base- what many(most) NWA guys have never experienced (another reason the 7ER out of nyc goes so junior... why commute when you can be a senior lineholder in base?). Also remember there are just that many 767 slots at DL.



DTW320- I was a couple numbers off... still doesnt change my point that the md88-90 are about the same size or slightly larger than the minipoodle.


Superpilot- I partly agree... to me the logical thing would have been to put the whale captain staffing slots in front of our number 1. Their logic does make sense in regards to the bottom slots. The fact is that both the NWA proposal and DAL proposals were slanted to favor either side and let the arbiters go from there.

 

[DAL737FO]

Problem with that argument is that 10% of the NWA list being stapled doesnt represent the "stovepipe" method. So even though there are a number of other problems with the DAL list proposal, the above isnt even a "fair" stovepipe. Btw the SO position pays more than the narrowbody equipment.

Both sides proposals have their own issues and thats exactly why its in arbitration. Whats "fair" to your side may not and likely isnt "fair" to our side and vice versa.

The end is near!!

Superpilot92,

Honest question how does it not represent the stovepipe method? If I understand the stovepipe method it just puts the people in the senior most position they can hold. Since Delta doesn't have anything the same size as the DC9 where do you think it would go?

 

[MJ42]

And if those airplane/base positions existed at NWA, where do you think they'd be on the seniority list? Exactly, senior to all of the 9 and small Airbus positions except for those persons who wanted to live in domicile in one of your frozen, crappy junior bases. It seems what you're asking for is a current junior NWA pilot, on a list for years but probably on furlough and actually on property flying for only a few years, to get Delta widebody flying out of a Delta base, the large pay and benefit increases, and immediate furlough protection at the expense of junior Delta pilots. Seems like a windfall to me, but of course I'm partial.

Hardly...anyway wouldn't you keep your precious wide body flying with fences? You keep your wide body flying, I'll take a fair seniority list, how about that?

All superpilot and I are saying is BOTH sides think the others proposal is unfair. The arbitrators gave a hint that they may be leaning toward a middle ground between the proposals. I think this surprised most of you. I'll accept a list in the middle of both proposals, will you guys?

 

[Klamath]

I understand DAL's "Stovepipe" approach but I do not agree with it's application.

On 01/01/2009, pay for the MD-80 will be $72.24 and for the DC-9 $71.73 (for a second year pilot).

To place 500 or so NWA pilots at the bottom over a .51 cent difference in pay doesn't make sense.

I don't know what the deal is with DAL 737 (200/300), do you have any? The 200 and 300 pay THE SAME as a DC-9! How does that fit in your "stovepipe?"

Just my opinion....

 

[Fly4hire]

There is only one viable solution that protects everyone's future asymmetric attrition, and that is a dynamic list. It's not hard, nor anymore complicated to administer than fences - the programs are written, we will have contract compliance monitoring from both sides. It is essentially nothing more than dynamic fencing if you will, adjusted for each pilot that retires on either side on an ongoing basis. Who care if it's never been done before - there are lots of firsts in this merger. Let's roll up our sleeves and get it done. The only objection I can see with a properly constructed dynamic list is it gives up the ability to disadvantage the former NWA pilots.

 

[Klamath]

Superpilot92,

Honest question how does it not represent the stovepipe method? If I understand the stovepipe method it just puts the people in the senior most position they can hold. Since Delta doesn't have anything the same size as the DC9 where do you think it would go?

In return, where do you think the 747 guys should go? On the DAL proposed list, they didn't take the all the top slots so why the DC-9 all the bottom ones?

 

[GogglesPisano]

In return, where do you think the 747 guys should go? On the DAL proposed list, they didn't take the all the top slots so why the DC-9 all the bottom ones?

It goes by pay. 747-400 is equivalent to the 777. DC-9 is at the bottom because it pays the least.

 

[dragon]

I understand DAL's "Stovepipe" approach but I do not agree with it's application.

On 01/01/2009, pay for the MD-80 will be $72.24 and for the DC-9 $71.73 (for a second year pilot).

To place 500 or so NWA pilots at the bottom over a .51 cent difference in pay doesn't make sense.

I don't know what the deal is with DAL 737 (200/300), do you have any? The 200 and 300 pay THE SAME as a DC-9! How does that fit in your "stovepipe?"

Just my opinion....

We don't have any 200 or 300 737s. We have the 800 and 700 (the few not being held hostage by the Boeing strike).

 

[Fly4hire]

It goes by pay. 747-400 is equivalent to the 777. DC-9 is at the bottom because it pays the least.

So does that mean later on in future contracts everyone's seniority number will be adjusted based on pay differences on different equipment? In case you didn't read the pay issue is a wash when factored for cost benefits of contractual quids on our side.

 

[GogglesPisano]

So does that mean later on in future contracts everyone's seniority number will be adjusted by based on pay differences on different equipment? In case you didn't read the pay issue is a wash when factored for cost benefits of contractual quids on our side.

Of course not. This is about who brings what to the table. Delta's proposal is based on assigning seniority based on what each pilot's airline brings to the table with regards to pay. This is for seniority list integration purposes. An individual pilot doesn't get a better number by virtue of what seat he is currently occupying, but on what seats (payrates) his airline brings to the table.

Granted, this doesn't take into effect retirements at either airline, or DOH.

But you knew that already.

Regardless, we'll know next month. Until then arguing about it here is pointless. I'm just try to correct another poster's misunderstanding of DAL's proposal.

 

[Superpilot92]

Superpilot92,

Honest question how does it not represent the stovepipe method? If I understand the stovepipe method it just puts the people in the senior most position they can hold. Since Delta doesn't have anything the same size as the DC9 where do you think it would go?

Well for one they said they wanted to do it by pay and relative position. The last DAL pilot hired is 500+ numbers senior to the last NWA hire. That is nowhere close to relative position and also the 747 SO position was put at the bottom also, even though it pays more than most of the Narrowbodies. They didnt put all the NWA guys at the top because the pay and size of the 747 is the biggest so why is ok on the bottom but not on top? I know why DALPA did that but it just goes to show it isnt a "fair" list. My point is there are problems with both sides proposals and that was confirmed by the arbitrators also.

Had the DAL list kept people closer to relative position instead of favoring ALL DAL pilots and hurting ALL NWA pilots it might have been more "fair". Stapling 10% of a pilot group and giving the rest of the pilot group a negative 1-6% cut in seniority is not "fair".

We are going to find out soon what the 3 wise men think fair is in a few weeks.

SIde notes, DCC bets - My bet is for around election day.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Very close Super. Very....

 

[FDJ2]

In case you didn't read the pay issue is a wash when factored for cost benefits of contractual quids on our side.

I read the nice piece of discreditted fiction presented by NALPA at the hearings concerning compensation. Is that what you are referring too?

 

[FDJ2]

Well for one they said they wanted to do it by pay and relative position.

It's done by comparable category and status. If it was done by comparable pay all DAL 777 and 767-400 captains would be senior to all NWA pilots, 737-800 pilots senior to NWA 757 pilots, MD-88 pilots senior to A320/19 and DC-9 pilots. We didn't do that.

The last DAL pilot hired is 500+ numbers senior to the last NWA hire. That is nowhere close to relative position and also the 747 SO position was put at the bottom also, even though it pays more than most of the Narrowbodies.

In the DAL proposal the second officer position was integrated with large gauge domestic first officers in 767s and 757s.

They didnt put all the NWA guys at the top because the pay and size of the 747 is the biggest so why is ok on the bottom but not on top?

The 747s pay less than 767-400s and 777s. Nevertheless, they received equal value and both the NWA and DAL "super premium" flying was treated equally.

I understand the concern over a large number of NWA pilots being placed on the bottom of the list. In our opinion the equity value of a DC-9 position is not the same as that of an MD-88. I'm sure you and others might have a different opinion. That's fine, if we agreed on everything we wouldn't be in arbitration.

From the transcripts:

"We saw information presented about the markets that the aircraft had been used in, the way that the DC-9 is used and the tremendous similarity between it and the76-seater. They are basically interchangeablein Northwest usage right now and that is the fair and equitable place for them to be."

"The job that's attributable to these pilot's positions, I'm not speaking towards individuals at all here but the positions these pilots are bringing over is that type of a job. It's either a possible Embraer job at Compass or it's a 77 to110-seater at a markedly lower pay rate and with lesser work rules."

 

[Fly4hire]

I read the nice piece of discreditted fiction presented by NALPA at the hearings concerning compensation. Is that what you are referring too?

Purely your opinion and that of your counsel. That does not a judgment make. Others seem to read it quite differently. I hope the negotiators and merger teams are more realistic and pragmatic than your Ministry of Information posts here. I'm perfectly happy taking my chances with the arbitrators - are you?

 

[NuGuy]

Purely your opinion and that of your counsel. That does not a judgment make. Others seem to read it quite differently. I hope the negotiators and merger teams are more realistic and pragmatic than your Ministry of Information posts here. I'm perfectly happy taking my chances with the arbitrators - are you?

Heyas F4H,

They got a clip of FDJ at the latest pilot meeting in ATL.

Ministry of Information, indeed. Heh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ntbfVQvHt8

Nu

 

[FDJ2]

Purely your opinion and that of your counsel. That does not a judgment make. Others seem to read it quite differently. I hope the negotiators and merger teams are more realistic and pragmatic than your Ministry of Information posts here. I'm perfectly happy taking my chances with the arbitrators - are you?

I'm comfortable with the arbitration process and the fact that the the arbitrators see right through the smoke and mirrors presented by NALPA. The average DAL pilot gets 84 hours of pay/month, NALPA knows that as a fact, but chooses to paint a different picture in arbitration. Of course facts don't play well with the NWA MEC, facts weaken their case.

What the NWA MEC doesn't want the arbitrators to see:

NWA Hotline: [FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic][FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic]
Tuesday, September 30, 2008
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

Pay Rumor: NWA vs. DAL​

[/FONT][/FONT]

It has been brought to the attention of the NWA MEC leadership that some pilots believe that when we go
to the DAL pay and work rules, pay raises will be a wash. The foundation of this belief is that we will get a pay raise followed by less working hours. This is a rumor.

This incorrect statement computes pay based on our NWA monthly max to DAL Average Line Value
(ALV), as if ALV was the max for the month. This is not the case. The ALV is the average. To get the max for the month, 7.5 hours would need to be added to the monthly ALV (see chart below). In addition, last year the average pay for DAL pilots was round 84 hours per month; making it possible to get more hours of pay under the DAL system vs. the current NWA pay system.

Naturally, given the choice of providing the arbitrators with factual information concerning DAL pay, the NWA MEC chose to present incorrect and misleading information.​