NWA wants DOH

[Fly4hire]

FDJ2, The cases have been made, nothing has been decided, we are still negotiating, but you parade around here absolutely trashing NALPA and stating with certainty it will be absolutely in your favor and of course the arbitrators will see "your" arguments as the True Way. I'm glad you have convinced yourself.

 

[michael707767]

Had the DAL list kept people closer to relative position instead of favoring ALL DAL pilots and hurting ALL NWA pilots it might have been more "fair". Stapling 10% of a pilot group and giving the rest of the pilot group a negative 1-6% cut in seniority is not "fair".

I won't even argue with you about the DAL proposal. But, do you really think DOH is even close to fair?

 

[Superpilot92]

I won't even argue with you about the DAL proposal. But, do you really think DOH is even close to fair?

I am not saying either side is "fair". Thats all in the eye of the beholder. However the 10 year fence makes DOH more fair imho. Those NWA pilots in front of the DAL pilots will be gone by the fence comes down and in the meantime the DAL positions and protections wont be lost. Also after 10 years the majority of the top of the list will be DAL pilots.

Again its not perfect but it doesnt negatively effect a large percentage of either pilot group over an entire career like the DAL staple and negative 1-6% hit that ALL NWA pilots get hit with under the DAL proposal. At least under the NWA proposal it eventually evens out and no body takes a career loss in seniority like the 10% staple job.


We'll see :beer:

 

[NuGuy]

I'm comfortable with the arbitration process and the fact that the the arbitrators see right through the smoke and mirrors presented by NALPA. The average DAL pilot gets 84 hours of pay/month, NALPA knows that as a fact, but chooses to paint a different picture in arbitration. Of course facts don't play well with the NWA MEC, facts weaken their case.

What the NWA MEC doesn't want the arbitrators to see:

NWA Hotline: [FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic]
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,BoldItalic]Tuesday, September 30, 2008[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Pay Rumor: NWA vs. DAL[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[/FONT]It has been brought to the attention of the NWA MEC leadership that some pilots believe that when we go
to the DAL pay and work rules, pay raises will be a wash. The foundation of this belief is that we will get a pay raise followed by less working hours. This is a rumor.​

This incorrect statement computes pay based on our NWA monthly max to DAL Average Line Value
(ALV), as if ALV was the max for the month. This is not the case. The ALV is the average. To get the max for the month, 7.5 hours would need to be added to the monthly ALV (see chart below). In addition, last year the average pay for DAL pilots was round 84 hours per month; making it possible to get more hours of pay under the DAL system vs. the current NWA pay system.​

Naturally, given the choice of providing the arbitrators with factual information concerning DAL pay, the NWA MEC chose to present incorrect and misleading information.​

FDJ,

Your spin continues.

From one day AFTER the above was published:

October 1st, 2008

Yesterday’s Hotline contained a piece comparing flight hours under the Northwest contract to the Delta contract. Unfortunately, this item contained factual inaccuracies and has been pulled from the Hotline. We will provide our pilots with information on this subject in the future.

If you're going to spin something, at least use the most up to date version.

Nu

 

[Scope out RJ's]

FDJ,

Your spin continues.

From one day AFTER the above was published:

October 1st, 2008

Yesterday’s Hotline contained a piece comparing flight hours under the Northwest contract to the Delta contract. Unfortunately, this item contained factual inaccuracies and has been pulled from the Hotline. We will provide our pilots with information on this subject in the future.

If you're going to spin something, at least use the most up to date version.

Nu

Nu:
You guys are priceless! Can't your side ever get anything right? I guess after 22 years of infighting and 26 arbitrations, probably not.
But at least you can hold on to the fact that you got your duble super delux awsome premium totally rad wide body flying!:laugh:

 

[NuGuy]

I am not saying either side is "fair". Thats all in the eye of the beholder. However the 10 year fence makes DOH more fair imho. Those NWA pilots in front of the DAL pilots will be gone by the fence comes down and in the meantime the DAL positions and protections wont be lost. Also after 10 years the majority of the top of the list will be DAL pilots.

Again its not perfect but it doesnt negatively effect a large percentage of either pilot group over an entire career like the DAL staple and negative 1-6% hit that ALL NWA pilots get hit with under the DAL proposal. At least under the NWA proposal it eventually evens out and no body takes a career loss in seniority like the 10% staple job.

Heyas Super,

All you are seeing is the latest version of the DAL spin. It began way back when "they could stop ANY merger".

When RA came onboard to turn DAL into the "stealth NWA", it was "he's not here to do a merger".

None of them wanted to do anything with us (fine by me). But when it became apparent how toothless they really were in the face of management's real plan, they did the only thing they could do....roll over, run for cover (LOA 19) and spin it their way.

Check out their posts. They have always consisted with 4-5 carefully crafted "talking points". The truth? Doesn't matter....repeat something often enough, and it becomes "the truth". This is all right out of "Communications 101": At all costs, control the message. This is FDJs "official" task....do a search on "Astroturfing".

You can tell when the message breaks down and they are operating "off script". The spelling errors, bad grammar, and verbatim "cut and pastes" from various, self-designated Illuminati from their webboard. All signs of frustration at losing control of "the message".

The really curious thing about the "Keep Delta my Delta" crowd is that despite what you think about DOH or ratios, a tall fence does exactly that. Everyone stays with what they brought. Their Delta would be their Delta for a long time.

The real question is why THEY don't want a tall fence after spending 8 months on this very forum telling us about how little they think of our bases, aircraft and flying. You'd think that they wouldn't want anything to do with us, and would be all for a fence (which some, to their credit, have).

But if you take even a cursory look at "their list" after 5 years, you will see why: a 4:1 DAL occupation in every WB seat and most NB Captain seats. Their fences are short because they KNOW that the top numbers at NWA will be long gone in 3-5 years, providing unimpeded access to NWAs WB flying, along with a lion's share of the left seats on the 757.

The garbage about "it's too expensive for the company to administer" is absolute, unadulterated bovine scatology. Find ONE pilot who gives a rats a$$ about what management thinks when his seniorty is being discussed.

They're going to go back to negotiate. A deal will probably be in between the final positions from the beginning of the year.

Any arbitration award will probably look suspiciously similar.

Nu

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You think Nu? Of course it will look like what we were doing earlier this year.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Scope,

Why are you such an angry d@#Kh^%d?? If dalpas case is so strong then it won't really matter what nu, superpilot or any nwa guy on here says. Btw, they are just giving their take on the transcripts. It is an opinion just like yours, however they don't act like an ***********************************. You seem to have an anger issue with not only nwa pilots but with others. Get some help.

Nu:
You guys are priceless! Can't your side ever get anything right? I guess after 22 years of infighting and 26 arbitrations, probably not.
But at least you can hold on to the fact that you got your duble super delux awsome premium totally rad wide body flying!:laugh:

 

[Superpilot92]

Scope,

Why are you such an angry d@#Kh^%d?? If dalpas case is so strong then it won't really matter what nu, superpilot or any nwa guy on here says. Btw, they are just giving their take on the transcripts. It is an opinion just like yours, however they don't act like an ***********************************. You seem to have an anger issue with not only nwa pilots but with others. Get some help.

Agree 100%. Most of us post our opinions and all he/she does is come on here and flame anyone with a difference of opinion. Thats exactly why he/she is on my ignore list. Whats the point of an aviation discussion board if all you do is flame? Scope adds nothing meaningful to any discussion or debate.

 

[DTW320]

Scope,

Why are you such an angry d@#Kh^%d?? If dalpas case is so strong then it won't really matter what nu, superpilot or any nwa guy on here says. Btw, they are just giving their take on the transcripts. It is an opinion just like yours, however they don't act like an ***********************************. You seem to have an anger issue with not only nwa pilots but with others. Get some help.

Do yourself a favor and put "it" on your ignore list. Scope is the epitome of a waste of bandwidth. In case you didn't know, Scope is the latest screen name of the BANNED 737Pylt.

 

[DTW320]

Heyas Super,

All you are seeing is the latest version of the DAL spin. It began way back when "they could stop ANY merger".

When RA came onboard to turn DAL into the "stealth NWA", it was "he's not here to do a merger".

None of them wanted to do anything with us (fine by me). But when it became apparent how toothless they really were in the face of management's real plan, they did the only thing they could do....roll over, run for cover (LOA 19) and spin it their way.

Check out their posts. They have always consisted with 4-5 carefully crafted "talking points". The truth? Doesn't matter....repeat something often enough, and it becomes "the truth". This is all right out of "Communications 101": At all costs, control the message. This is FDJs "official" task....do a search on "Astroturfing".

You can tell when the message breaks down and they are operating "off script". The spelling errors, bad grammar, and verbatim "cut and pastes" from various, self-designated Illuminati from their webboard. All signs of frustration at losing control of "the message".

The really curious thing about the "Keep Delta my Delta" crowd is that despite what you think about DOH or ratios, a tall fence does exactly that. Everyone stays with what they brought. Their Delta would be their Delta for a long time.

The real question is why THEY don't want a tall fence after spending 8 months on this very forum telling us about how little they think of our bases, aircraft and flying. You'd think that they wouldn't want anything to do with us, and would be all for a fence (which some, to their credit, have).

But if you take even a cursory look at "their list" after 5 years, you will see why: a 4:1 DAL occupation in every WB seat and most NB Captain seats. Their fences are short because they KNOW that the top numbers at NWA will be long gone in 3-5 years, providing unimpeded access to NWAs WB flying, along with a lion's share of the left seats on the 757.

The garbage about "it's too expensive for the company to administer" is absolute, unadulterated bovine scatology. Find ONE pilot who gives a rats a$$ about what management thinks when his seniorty is being discussed.

They're going to go back to negotiate. A deal will probably be in between the final positions from the beginning of the year.

Any arbitration award will probably look suspiciously similar.

Nu

Nu,

OUTSTANDING post and a great description of the implications of their "wish list" 5+ years out.

 

[Fly4hire]

Heyas Super,

All you are seeing is the latest version of the DAL spin. It began way back when "they could stop ANY merger".

ver (LOA 19) and spin it their way.

The real question is why THEY don't want a tall fence after spending 8 months on this very forum telling us about how little they think of our bases, aircraft and flying. You'd think that they wouldn't want anything to do with us, and would be all for a fence (which some, to their credit, have).

But if you take even a cursory look at "their list" after 5 years, you will see why: a 4:1 DAL occupation in every WB seat and most NB Captain seats. Their fences are short because they KNOW that the top numbers at NWA will be long gone in 3-5 years, providing unimpeded access to NWAs WB flying, along with a lion's share of the left seats on the 757.

The garbage about "it's too expensive for the company to administer" is absolute, unadulterated bovine scatology. Find ONE pilot who gives a rats a$$ about what management thinks when his seniorty is being discussed.

They're going to go back to negotiate. A deal will probably be in between the final positions from the beginning of the year.

Any arbitration award will probably look suspiciously similar.

Nu

FDJ2 is a member their Comm Cmte, or is on a designated mission from them. Our team is well aware of these games and the spinning of supposed facts to their benefit.

Every condition DAL has proposed is systematically designed to benefit DAL at the detriment of NWA Pilots

This of course is why they don't want a dynamic list, which in actual implementation is no more difficult to administer than the adjusting of normal seniority lists as pilots retire.

We have sophisticated programming to allow pilot by pilot adjustment of the SL as pilots from each side retire, and of course it will be monitored for compliance by representatives from both pre-merger groups.

What could be more fair than for each group to enjoy the benefits of the attrition they each bring to the table? No, or very small fences would be required. The answer is simple - there is a contingent of vocal largely junior pilots who have no interest in a fair SLI.

We already have no-bump-no-flush written in to any SLI.

Bottom line is a few of them don't just want their own growth and what they bring to the table, they want ours as well.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Scope,

Why are you such an angry d@#Kh^%d?? If dalpas case is so strong then it won't really matter what nu, superpilot or any nwa guy on here says. Btw, they are just giving their take on the transcripts. It is an opinion just like yours, however they don't act like an ***********************************. You seem to have an anger issue with not only nwa pilots but with others. Get some help.

Come on cobraair, truth hurts doesn't it? The NWA MEC has never been good at the truth, or getting along with its peers. Look at your past. 26 arbitrations in 22 years. Nothing ever makes you guys happy. I'm laughing at all your sisters like dtw320(who claims to have me on ignore but can't help to reply) nugirl, and superman pilot92. Keep up the hits, they make for wonderful entertainment.
I'm going back to readin the transcrips where stevens looks like a bigger ass than your "expert witness" from the titanic 747 and dc9!:laugh:

 

[Scope out RJ's]

FDJ2 is a member their Comm Cmte, or is on a designated mission from them. Our team is well aware of these games and the spinning of supposed facts to their benefit.

I'm glad to see that your side continues on its factual basis of being wrong!

Every condition DAL has proposed is systematically designed to benefit DAL at the detriment of NWA Pilots

Of course the NW side would NEVER do that! [/sarcasm]

This of course is why they don't want a dynamic list, which in actual implementation is no more difficult to administer than the adjusting of normal seniority lists as pilots retire.

No what they don't want is a huge windfall to the NW side, but stapling the bottom 500 Delta pilots is ok?

We have sophisticated programming to allow pilot by pilot adjustment of the SL as pilots from each side retire, and of course it will be monitored for compliance by representatives from both pre-merger groups.

:laugh: LMFAO! Thanks, I just spit coffee out of my nose reading that one. The only sophisticated equipment they know how to use is "arbitration." Its worked for 22 years, why change now!

What could be more fair than for each group to enjoy the benefits of the attrition they each bring to the table? NO, you want to enjoy the DL attritition while fencing off your own. No, or very small fences would be required. The answer is simple - there is a contingent of vocal largely junior pilots who have no interest in a fair SLI.

Of course the NW version was so fair! [/more sarcasm]

We already have no-bump-no-flush written in to any SLI.

to enjoy the benefits of the nw retirements. But notice how they come down when the (larger number) of Delta retirements kick in!

Bottom line is a few of them don't just want their own growth and what they bring to the table, they want ours as well.

:laugh: LMFAO! Again!
Your spin machine must need an oil change by now!

 

[General Lee]

FDJ2 is a member their Comm Cmte, or is on a designated mission from them. Our team is well aware of these games and the spinning of supposed facts to their benefit.

Every condition DAL has proposed is systematically designed to benefit DAL at the detriment of NWA Pilots

This of course is why they don't want a dynamic list, which in actual implementation is no more difficult to administer than the adjusting of normal seniority lists as pilots retire.

We have sophisticated programming to allow pilot by pilot adjustment of the SL as pilots from each side retire, and of course it will be monitored for compliance by representatives from both pre-merger groups.

What could be more fair than for each group to enjoy the benefits of the attrition they each bring to the table? No, or very small fences would be required. The answer is simple - there is a contingent of vocal largely junior pilots who have no interest in a fair SLI.

We already have no-bump-no-flush written in to any SLI.

Bottom line is a few of them don't just want their own growth and what they bring to the table, they want ours as well.

That sounds like exactly what the America West guys got too, right? It is all about fairness, and they got relative seniority, which is still too good for you guys, since you are bringing less to the table in terms of current planes and future planes. Many of your planes are going away, and if you read the transcripts you can see a lot of confindential areas blocked out. Why is that? Our business plan is being revealed there, and it states a lot of things, like where your Cargo 742s are going etc, and the direction of where your DC9s are going too. This is about what each side brings to the table, and saying you COULD have a bunch of retirements maybe, possibly, won't cut it. We will have just as many, or MORE than you within the next 5-10 years. Attrition has NEVER been used in any SLI, and that was stated by your own witness on the stand. Relative seniority plus or minus what you bring to the table, will likely be the MOST FAIR choice. The 17 year USAir FOs figured that out too, to their dismay.

BTW, loved your NWALPA proposal. In our proposal, we DL pilots moved up a bit, maybe 2% because of the bottom 400 being NWA pilots, due to the NWA planes leaving the fleet. Other than that, everyone is pretty close to where you were when this all started percentage wise. With your proposal, we DL pilots, ALL moved BACKWARDS 14%. Uhhhh yeah.......Riiiiiiiight. Ummm NO. I think you guys are HOPING that we choose the middle ground (maybe only moving backwards 7 or 8%), which is still a NO WAY. Good try, no thanks. And, besides supposed retirements you may or may not have, where is the growth you guys are talking about? The 787s? Really? I have heard they MAY NEVER make it to DL. Can you gie me any other "plans" of expansion, and not of deduction, like the cargo 742s and some DC9s? No speeches like your A320FO on the stand please, just details....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

That sounds like exactly what the America West guys got too, right? It is all about fairness, and they got relative seniority, which is still too good for you guys, since you are bringing less to the table in terms of current planes and future planes.

And we are not even remotely close in either size or demographics to the USAir pilots. I know this is the argument you are hanging your hat on. Good luck. "Arbitrator Bloch said that the panel considers the case to be a merger of two equals"

 

[Fly4hire]

That sounds like exactly what the America West guys got too, right? It is all about fairness, and they got relative seniority, which is still too good for you guys, since you are bringing less to the table in terms of current planes and future planes.

And we are not even remotely close in either size or demographics to the USAir pilots. I know this is the argument you are hanging your hat on. Good luck.

"Arbitrator Bloch said that the panel considers the case to be a merger of two equals"

 

[General Lee]

And we are not even remotely close in either size or demographics to the USAir pilots. I know this is the argument you are hanging your hat on. Good luck.

"Arbitrator Bloch said that the panel considers the case to be a merger of two equals"

Same size as USAir? Never said that. We are both the same size or "equals" (also means no Super Duper Premium widebody flying either.....)---and that is great. Not one of us is failing (which is what he meant), and that also smacks your idea that you are the "bread winner" in this merger. As far as demographics, you do have a lot of senior pilots like USAir East, and that didn't matter to Nicelau. Relative seniority won out, because it is the most fair, regardless of DOH etc. Your own lawyer was the lawyer for USAir East. Ask him how it went. Remember that Bloch stated the same thing in the beginning (please negotiate one yourselves...), and he is hoping he doesn't have to render one himself with the other 2 arbitrators. Your arguments have been slammed by our lawyer, along with your computer model that stated you would have 94 DC9s worth of Captains, and 631 787 positions, even though the plane hasn't flown yet. (probably won't for DL is the rumor) You need to look at recent history to see how DOH "entitlement" has been treated.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

didn't matter to Nicelau. .......Your arguments have been slammed by our lawyer Bye Bye--General Lee

Guess what? Nicelau is not the arbitrator, and "slammed" is purely opinion on your part.

Neither side agrees, and we'll see what the arbitrators or merger cmte's deliver.

I suggest you might want to prepare yourself for disappointment.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Guess what? Nicelau is not the arbitrator, and "slammed" is purely opinion on your part.

Neither side agrees, and we'll see what the arbitrators or merger cmte's deliver.

I suggest you might want to prepare yourself for disappointment.

Well, based on the latest notes from the arbitration hearings, in the words of Ivan Drago (Rocky III)
"You will lose!"
But don't let the NW spin get in the way. Keep that machine oiled up! But save some of that oil, because of the screw job your mec is giving you by misrepresentation.