NWA wants DOH

MCDU

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Posts
1,146
Total Time
21987
Excerpt from article below titled: Delta, NWA pilots lay out arguments over seniority
But Daniel M. Katz, an attorney for Northwest pilots, told the arbitration panel in his opening statement that the only truly fair way to integrate the two lists so that pilots on each side understand they are where they belong is to do it based on the date they were hired.
Katz said that method has been chosen by some prior arbitration panels.
"There is no justification for departing from that methodology to go to a status and category ratio that would create the very enmity and hostility that we've all avowed to avoid," Katz said.


Pilots differ on seniority terms

October 6, 2008
Delta Air Lines pilots want their seniority list merged with Northwest Airlines' pilot list based on pilots' status and aircraft category, while Northwest pilots insist the fair and equitable method is to merge the lists based on date of hire.
The arguments were laid out during closed-door arbitration hearings that began Thursday at a hotel near Los Angeles. News media have been barred from the hearings, which will continue later this month and again next month.
The two groups have been in a stalemate over seniority after Delta acquires Northwest later this year, although they have approved a joint collective bargaining agreement covering more than 12,000 pilots.
Seniority brings priority for choice of vacations, routes and the bigger airplanes with higher pay. Northwest pilots tend to be older than Delta pilots because many of Delta's senior pilots retired in the run-up to its 2005 bankruptcy filing.
ASSOCIATED PRESS




__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/michigan/index.ssf?/base/business-18/1223325553167740.xml&storylist=michigannews


Delta, NWA pilots lay out arguments over seniority

10/6/2008, 4:32 p.m. ET By HARRY R. WEBER
The Associated Press

ATLANTA (AP) — Delta Air Lines Inc. pilots want their seniority list merged with Northwest Airlines Corp.'s pilot list based on pilots' status and aircraft category, while Northwest pilots insist the fair and equitable method is to merge the lists based on pilots' date of hire.
The arguments were laid out during closed-door arbitration hearings that began Thursday at a hotel near Los Angeles.
The media has been barred from the hearings, which will continue later this month and again next month. The Associated Press obtained transcripts of the sessions so far.
The two sides have been in a stalemate over how to integrate their seniority lists after Atlanta-based Delta acquires Eagan, Minn.-based Northwest later this year, though they have approved a joint collective bargaining agreement covering more than 12,000 pilots.
Northwest is Michigan's largest passenger air carrier.
Pilots value their seniority. Those at the top of the list get first choice on vacations, the best routes and the bigger planes that they get paid more for flying.
Northwest pilots tend to be older than Delta pilots because many senior pilots retired from Delta during the run-up to the airline's 2005 bankruptcy filing.
An arbitration panel — California labor attorney Fredric Horowitz, attorney Dana Eischen and veteran arbitrator Richard Bloch — has been called in to resolve the seniority issue. A written decision, which would be binding, is due by Nov. 20.
In his opening statement on behalf of Delta's pilots, attorney Jeffrey R. Freund told the panel that to integrate the two pilot lists, the first step should be to place the aircraft on both sides of the combined company in broad categories and then look at each pilot's status on those aircraft.
For example, Freund said, there could be international wide-body captains and narrow-body first officers. He said that whatever the categories are, the appropriate process would be to then count the pilots in each status and category who held those positions on a particular date, on the respective seniority lists.
So, if there were 200 Delta international wide-body captains and 100 Northwest international wide-body captains, the top 300 pilots from the two seniority lists would be distributed on the merged seniority list on the basis of two Delta pilots and then one Northwest pilot, and so on down the line. Freund said the pilots in other aircraft categories should be distributed on the merged list the same way.
"That's the way its been done at Delta in every decade, the '70s, '80s, '90s and now the 2000s," Freund told the panel. "And every decade up until this decade, there has been seniority integration that has been done on status and category and it's been done fundamentally successfully."
But Daniel M. Katz, an attorney for Northwest pilots, told the arbitration panel in his opening statement that the only truly fair way to integrate the two lists so that pilots on each side understand they are where they belong is to do it based on the date they were hired.
Katz said that method has been chosen by some prior arbitration panels.
"There is no justification for departing from that methodology to go to a status and category ratio that would create the very enmity and hostility that we've all avowed to avoid," Katz said.
Testimony during the sessions so far was given by several witnesses, including Daniel Akins, a consultant who has worked for airline unions. He testified that Delta and Northwest can expect to grab a greater share of the sales in their large markets after the combination than they would get individually. He said that's because business travelers favor airlines with more flights. So, an airline might have 60 percent of the seats in a market, but get more than 60 percent of the revenue because bigger-spending business travelers will favor that airline.
He said he believes some of Delta's predicted $2 billion in post-combination savings includes that assumption.
He said that is something "the Justice Department never hears about but in the yield management departments of each airline they know that the larger the market share of each city, the greater the revenue share."
The hearing sessions that started Thursday and ran to Sunday were to continue Oct. 20-24 in Washington and then return to Los Angeles from Nov. 15-17.
Horowitz and Bloch also served on an arbitration panel selected in 2006 to determine whether Delta, which was under bankruptcy protection at the time, could void its pilots' contract and impose pay and benefit cuts unilaterally. Delta's pilots union, which had threatened to strike, eventually agreed to concessions, and that panel never issued a ruling.
Delta's stock-swap deal to acquire Northwest, announced April 14, was given the go-ahead by shareholders of both companies on Sept. 25. It is still subject to regulatory approval. Delta is hoping to close the deal by the end of the year.
___
 

Axel

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Posts
1,132
Rut-roh!

I hope you guys can come together on this, either during the arbitration proceedings or after the decision is rendered..

Admittedly understating the obvious: You have only to look to the chaos at USAirways to see the potential for disaster if you don't.

Good luck.
 

patrickdc9

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 20, 2007
Posts
48
Total Time
5000
Well of course NW's opening position is DOH, just like Delta's was to create a ratio that stapled 500 NW pilots to the bottom of the list. These are opening positions. I'm no expert on negotiations, but I would assume both sides start on polar opposites, then end up somewhere in the middle.

Can we all (Delta and NW brothers) recognize this and not let this thread turn into another bloodbath of grenades being lobed back and forth?
 

johnsonrod

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Posts
4,218
Total Time
8000+
I want to win the $300 million Power Ball!

It ain't gonna happen either. Period. Let's move on since we've talked about this over and over and over. Let the arbitrators do their work and let's be done with it... This topic is getting repetitive.

Hey MCDU, you are a dork. Go back to your disgrace of an airline and enjoy your lack of unity. You are like a 3rd grader trying to stir-up trouble among other pilot groups just because you aren't happy. That's pathetic. Next topic...
 

jetjockey#1

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 17, 2005
Posts
161
Total Time
7200
The day after the merger we all should be able to HOLD the same equipment and schedule as the day before the merger.

If all you can HOLD is narrow body, your "new" seniority should NOT be able to hold a line on a widebody the day after the merger.
 

WSurf

The Smack Down!
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Posts
3,690
Total Time
6500
The day after the merger we all should be able to HOLD the same equipment and schedule as the day before the merger.

If all you can HOLD is narrow body, your "new" seniority should NOT be able to hold a line on a widebody the day after the merger.
And thats what she said.
 

MJ42

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Posts
633
Total Time
8000
The day after the merger we all should be able to HOLD the same equipment and schedule as the day before the merger.

If all you can HOLD is narrow body, your "new" seniority should NOT be able to hold a line on a widebody the day after the merger.
If everyone currently at DAL bid the most senior aircraft they COULD hold, what would you be on? MD-88 reserve?
 

Occam's Razor

Risible...ALWAYS risible
Joined
Jun 28, 2005
Posts
2,551
Total Time
16K+
Some points to keep in mind:

1. MCDU is a bitter troll.

2. The proposals presented at the arbitration are nowhere near the same proposals that were passed across the table by both sides in April.

3. They aren't even close to the positions each side held just last month.

4. #2 and #3 are germane. There is a solution acceptable to both sides that is far from the stuff they're presenting right now. We know this to be true, because they stipulated it when they passed it across the table.

4. Lawyers run arbitration, pilots run negotiations. Once the lawyers are done billing us enough to cover their heavy investment losses from last week...the risk management skill possessed by each professional pilot will move us back to the table.

5. Both MEC's will meet at the ALPA BOD next week. There will be a few hours of harrumphing and whining (another skill we possess) by the diverse, but homogeneous pilots we elect to direct the process.

6. The proximity to pilots from other airlines will foster enhanced S.A. by our boys, who'll then dust off the table positions we last presented. [It's called the "High School Reunion Effect". When you see the girl you crushed on years ago, and you realize she isn't as hot as you thought she was. It makes what you've got look a lot better.]

6. Since the methodology was largely settled at the negotiating table, the only "open items" are the numbers that plugged into the formula. That can be done quickly.

7. MCDU is a bitter troll.
 

PHXFLYR

USAir by default
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
2,177
Total Time
>0;<1
2 and 3 aren't germane.1 and 7 are ....:rolleyes:

PHXFLYR:cool:
 

MCDU

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Posts
1,146
Total Time
21987
Just wait til NWA pilots hired in 1998 see that they will be junior to 2007 Delta pilots. Let the fire works begin.
Just two years ago Delta was in BK and had over a thousand pilots on furlough. Then they hire like crazy and all these pilots feel that they have better prospects then a NWA pilot who has been there for 10 years. What a concept.

M
 

MCDU

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 9, 2003
Posts
1,146
Total Time
21987
The day after the merger we all should be able to HOLD the same equipment and schedule as the day before the merger.

If all you can HOLD is narrow body, your "new" seniority should NOT be able to hold a line on a widebody the day after the merger.
How ironic

AWA pilots could have if the Nic award would have been used.

M
 

tomgoodman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Posts
2,356
Total Time
20,000
Boo

There is a solution acceptable to both sides that is far from the stuff they're presenting right now. We know this to be true, because they stipulated it when they passed it across the table.
Occam,

Of course everybody knows that, but don't go spoiling Halloween! People enjoy freaking out and screaming at fake monsters. :eek:
 

ACL65PILOT

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Posts
4,621
Total Time
9000+
I a 07 hire can hold what a 99 hire does at NWA. Does it matter?
Depends. What matters is that I voted one way or another for the TFA and it passed. Now that is what will decide all of our fates.
 

MJ42

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Posts
633
Total Time
8000
I a 07 hire can hold what a 99 hire does at NWA. Does it matter?
Depends. What matters is that I voted one way or another for the TFA and it passed. Now that is what will decide all of our fates.
One big difference...our wide body F/O's hold their position because it is a desirable position at NWA. You hold your position because no one senior wants it.
 
Last edited:

ACL65PILOT

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Posts
4,621
Total Time
9000+
Yes, but how many years does it take to do that?
 

Dan Roman

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2004
Posts
2,815
Total Time
19000
I a 07 hire can hold what a 99 hire does at NWA. Does it matter?
Depends. What matters is that I voted one way or another for the TFA and it passed. Now that is what will decide all of our fates.
Which is the big diference between you guys and USAPA. If you guys were all smart enough to realize that and, after both sides make their best respective arguements, bury the hatchet and move on, you would all benefit.
I'm just a spectator here, but somehow I can't see you guys (either side) screwing this up as bad as USAir East did.
 

ACL65PILOT

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2006
Posts
4,621
Total Time
9000+
Fact is that even if we use your argument, the list DAL proposed would still work. It is ratio by the equipment that is on property v/s what you have. It does not matter what any of actually hold.
 
Top