NWA/DAL negotiations update

[FDJ2]

Hey, Scabboy is back. Considering 80% of your "widebody" flying is paid the same as 757, I wouldn't make fun of the word premium.

Actually, what's interesting is that DAL 757 pay is equivalent to your A330 pay. Doesn't do much for your premerger expectations or your lack of real premium flying.

 

[General Lee]

12 year s/o 102+intl ovrd = 73ng and more than md80. If we are such an albatross, then why is moak and the gang raising hell to stop this? You know why, you need us as we need you. If this was not the case then why are y'all not doing the keep delta my delta thing again? If you are so sure about deltas stand alone future then man up and block this thing. Otherwise be honest and admit that both mecs are doing there best (jtfs, veritas, media leaks, talking points etc) to represent thier pilots. You have to give both mecs credit for trying to protect the entire list, not just the sr. At some point we will have to work together.

You're right. And as Captain, I will do half of the walkarounds, and I will buy the third and fifth beers (pitchers in Fargo) on every layover!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Superpilot92]

So what all of you are saying is you really have no clue and we should all be happy that you arent in the negotiations?

 

[General Lee]

So what all of you are saying is you really have no clue and we should all be happy that you arent in the negotiations?

We aren't in negotiations, but FDJ2 is really close by.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

You have to give both mecs credit for trying to protect the entire list, not just the sr. At some point we will have to work together.

Yes....

 

[GogglesPisano]

Considering 80% of your "widebody" flying is paid the same as 757, I wouldn't make fun of the word premium.

I've got to hand it to you. You guys certainly win in the "spin" category. Don't let any pertinent facts get in the way, like the one where DL pay is about about 10-15% higher than NWA's across the board.

 

[nwaredtail]

I've got to hand it to you. You guys certainly win in the "spin" category. Don't let any pertinent facts get in the way, like the one where DL pay is about about 10-15% higher than NWA's across the board.

Not for long.

 

[General Lee]

Not for long.

Ummmmm, oooo-kay? What?


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[GogglesPisano]

He means negotiating capital is going to be expended bringing their pay up to ours.

 

[nwaredtail]

Ummmmm, oooo-kay? What?


Bye Bye---General Lee

You mean you haven't heard yet? You will soon.

 

[General Lee]

You mean you haven't heard yet? You will soon.

Are you talking about the parking of all of the DC9s? That stinks. Was that the rumor? Just waiting for it.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

I am sure he is close by. As are the other spinmeisters reading from the talking points from mgmt, moak and the dalpa mec on the alpa natl board. You guys just can't stand the fact you are dealing with a large group who is not going to take your bs, unlike the smaller western and pan am groups who did not have a choice. Now, if your mgmt along with ours decides to shrink us into submission you might get away with your little grab. Otherwise, you will be reasonable and come to an agreement we can both live with.

quote=General Lee;1595178]We aren't in negotiations, but FDJ2 is really close by.


Bye Bye--General Lee[/quote]

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

And to add to my previous post can any dalpa spinmiesters please answer my question from my post 117? Here it is again:

You know why, you need us as we need you. If this was not the case then why are y'all not doing the keep delta my delta thing again? If you are so sure about deltas stand alone future then man up and block this thing.

Can you honestly answer without the dalpa, mgmt crib notes? For the life of me I can't figure out why you put so much effort into derailing the merge with lcc. You would have owned the east coast and when us or ual went tu you could have scavenged the pacific.

 

[General Lee]

And to add to my previous post can any dalpa spinmiesters please answer my question from my post 117? Here it is again:

You know why, you need us as we need you. If this was not the case then why are y'all not doing the keep delta my delta thing again? If you are so sure about deltas stand alone future then man up and block this thing.

Can you honestly answer without the dalpa, mgmt crib notes? For the life of me I can't figure out why you put so much effort into derailing the merge with lcc. You would have owned the east coast and when us or ual went tu you could have scavenged the pacific.

Really? Is it that hard for you to understand? A merge with AAA would have been terrible because of overlapping routes and hubs. Their main hubs were CLT (next to ATL), PHL (next to JFK), and PHX (near our LAX and SLC). That would have cost huge jobs. Plus, they didn't add anything to our network. You guys have hubs in the upper midwest, something we don't have. You have Asia, which is something that would take us a long time to achieve. That's about it---it fits better like a puzzle. You both have militant groups though, but we thought your group would love to get rid of Steenland and try something a bit different (yes, we know you had RA before Steenland). Most of you hate Steenland, and probably at least respect RA. But in reality, you are an older airline with mostly old planes with a great Asian presence, with a couple really inhospitable hubs that 99% of our guys would not want. Other than all of that, we really like you guys, except your really senior guys that don't know how to negotiate and are afraid to.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

So doh with base/equipment fences should be no problem. I will gladly stay in msp/dtw if my seniority is protected. PS I live in the south and would never, I repeat never move to atl and I here the commute is a bitch from where I live.

couple really inhospitable hubs that 99% of our guys would not want

 

[General Lee]

So doh with base/equipment fences should be no problem. I will gladly stay in msp/dtw if my seniority is protected. PS I live in the south and would never, I repeat never move to atl and I here the commute is a bitch from where I live.

couple really inhospitable hubs that 99% of our guys would not want

Put that in writing----no hub changes for any NWA pilot or Delta pilot (from a DL/NWA hub to the other's hub etc)---EVER. Sounds gravy. So, what happens if they open a new hub in Wichita or somewhere else? Then Relative Seniority should work, right? For a new hub---maybe a Honolulu hub or San Juan hub. There has NEVER been an ALPA merger with DOH---only relative seniority. So, you should have no problem with that, as long as we all stay in our own bases. Sounds good. Call the lawyers.....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

So doh with base/equipment fences should be no problem.

You wont get DOH in the new Delta. Kiss that good bye. Hasn't anyone told you, DOH was removed from ALPA merger policy. Not to worry though, you'll get relative seniority by comparable categories. That will protect your interests and what you bring to the merger.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Is there ANY way I could convince all of you soon-to-be-joined-at-the-hip-for-the-rest-of-your-careers numbskulls to quit sniping at each other?

Give it a rest.
Support your MEC.
Focus on the benefits...not the piques.

The industry is at the precipice. Everything I'm hearing indicates there will be money thrown at both pilot groups to put this together, if we can do it without having a meltdown.

If you're not up for it, fine. You can be one of that 5% of each group that cause us to shake our heads in dismay, until somebody throws a telethon to raise money for their forced sterilization.

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Occam,

Just bored on reserve. No open time. Having a little fun with the ptp boys and the talking points. Take care.

Is there ANY way I could convince all of you soon-to-be-joined-at-the-hip-for-the-rest-of-your-careers numbskulls to quit sniping at each other?

Give it a rest.
Support your MEC.
Focus on the benefits...not the piques.

The industry is at the precipice. Everything I'm hearing indicates there will be money thrown at both pilot groups to put this together, if we can do it without having a meltdown.

If you're not up for it, fine. You can be one of that 5% of each group that cause us to shake our heads in dismay, until somebody throws a telethon to raise money for their forced sterilization.

 

[Superpilot92]

Is there ANY way I could convince all of you soon-to-be-joined-at-the-hip-for-the-rest-of-your-careers numbskulls to quit sniping at each other?

Give it a rest.
Support your MEC.
Focus on the benefits...not the piques.

The industry is at the precipice. Everything I'm hearing indicates there will be money thrown at both pilot groups to put this together, if we can do it without having a meltdown.

If you're not up for it, fine. You can be one of that 5% of each group that cause us to shake our heads in dismay, until somebody throws a telethon to raise money for their forced sterilization.

Couldn't agree more! There is no point in fighting one another on here we are very close to being on the same team. I cant wait till its over so we can ALL move forward.

 

[PuffDriver]

Couldn't agree more! There is no point in fighting one another on here we are very close to being on the same team. I cant wait till its over so we can ALL move forward.

Thirded.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Is there ANY way I could convince all of you soon-to-be-joined-at-the-hip-for-the-rest-of-your-careers numbskulls to quit sniping at each other?

Give it a rest.
Support your MEC.
Focus on the benefits...not the piques.

The industry is at the precipice. Everything I'm hearing indicates there will be money thrown at both pilot groups to put this together, if we can do it without having a meltdown.

If you're not up for it, fine. You can be one of that 5% of each group that cause us to shake our heads in dismay, until somebody throws a telethon to raise money for their forced sterilization.

Couldn't agree more. Trying to take the high road but it's hard to resist responding to someone who manages to spin the fact that DL 767 rates are the same as DL 757 rates without acknowledging the other way of looking at it --- that the 757 pays the same as the 767, which pay the same as the A330!

As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?

 

[nwaredtail]

As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?

[/QUOTE]

None, enjoy the airline industry!

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

None, other than recall rights. But you do get the pride of being a delta pilot to tell your neighbors and family. A delta that will finally have a presence in the pacific. A delta that will be the worlds largest airline until the next merger.




As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?[/quote]

 

[JohnDoe]

As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?

None unfortunately. No-furlough clauses aren't worth the paper they are printed on. 9-11 proved that.

 

[General Lee]

Couldn't agree more. Trying to take the high road but it's hard to resist responding to someone who manages to spin the fact that DL 767 rates are the same as DL 757 rates without acknowledging the other way of looking at it --- that the 757 pays the same as the 767, which pay the same as the A330!

As far pay raises go -- that's great. But what protections are some of us junior guys going to get against a 100% pay cut?

Protections? Well, depending on when the DC9s are parked (they will be eventually), the timing of the SLI is important. Since it is the smallest plane in our combined fleet, I would think even an arbitrator would place those pilots at the bottom (especially if he/she decides to put some 744 pilots at the top). That could help your situation. And, if it is relative seniority, then every time we add a new hire pilot, your relative seniority increases. So, if we do hire "438" pilots this Fall, then you have just placed an addition 400-500 NWA guys below you most likely. (all done with relative seniority). Plenty of NWA people may not like that, but neither did the 17 year USAir Eastie who was placed 2nd from the bottom by Nicelau. It will take awhile until our operating certificates are combined(end of 09), and that will allow some hiring possibly on our side.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

None unfortunately. No-furlough clauses aren't worth the paper they are printed on. 9-11 proved that.

They can always use a force mejeur clause, but they have to prove it. Delta did furlough a large number after 9-11, but a chunk of those were returned fairly quickly because the arbitrator found that Delta did it improperly. Currently, pilots at Delta above TBKANE have no furlough protection that states regardless of the economy or fuel prices, no furloughs. I guess the company could try, but an arbitrator would likely look into that too and see what the exact reasons were. Hopefully our new contract will have something similar.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jetjockey#1]

They can always use a force mejeur clause, but they have to prove it. Delta did furlough a large number after 9-11, but a chunk of those were returned fairly quickly because the arbitrator found that Delta did it improperly. Currently, pilots at Delta above TBKANE have no furlough protection that states regardless of the economy or fuel prices, no furloughs. I guess the company could try, but an arbitrator would likely look into that too and see what the exact reasons were. Hopefully our new contract will have something similar.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Unfortunately General the no-furlough clause is really not worth the paper is written on. The reason is, it doesn’t cost the company money, let me explain. If tomorrow they furlough 1000 pilots, they have no further responsibility to these folks, I understand re-training and so on. However, how about instead of a no furlough clause, a clause stating that furloughed pilots will keep receiving medical benefits as any active pilot, and he/she will keep receiving B fund/401k contributions based on 70 hours from the equipment they were flying up to the furlough. Then and only then they would think about furloughing pilots.

 

[General Lee]

Unfortunately General the no-furlough clause is really not worth the paper is written on. The reason is, it doesn’t cost the company money, let me explain. If tomorrow they furlough 1000 pilots, they have no further responsibility to these folks, I understand re-training and so on. However, how about instead of a no furlough clause, a clause stating that furloughed pilots will keep receiving medical benefits as any active pilot, and he/she will keep receiving B fund/401k contributions based on 70 hours from the equipment they were flying up to the furlough. Then and only then they would think about furloughing pilots.

That is not really correct, since the arbitrator actually recalled those Force Mejeur 2 guys back with pay. So, it did cost them money in the end, and they had to keep paying for them when they didn't have the spots to put them. It made them think twice about furloughing without cause. But, I agree with what you are saying, it would be better for us to have something in our new contract like medical benefits paid by the company, or 401K contributions for the DC fund paid during furlough at 70 hours. Sure, that would be great.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

One big thing the NWA guys will also benefit from is the fact that the furloughees did not accrue longevity on their "dream vacation" while our guys did.

On the DC-9 jumpseat the other day, the guy in the right seat had less accrued longevity than I have at DL....and he was an early 2001 hire.

All our furloughees came back on the year pay they would have been had they been on property the entire time.

So on top of the % pay increase to bring their contract up to ours, they will get a huge pay increase to change their longevity to where it rightfully should be.